17 replies to this topic

[mplain]

Renly Baratheon

 

Reaction: After you draw a loyal card using insight, reveal it to draw 1 card.

 

I'm a bit troubled by the fact that Renly's ability is a Reaction.

 

RRG on Reactions:

"Always resolve a triggering condition before initiating any reactions to that triggering condition."

 

RRG on Drawing Cards:

"Drawn cards are added to a player's hand."

 

So it seems that the correct sequence is: process Insight, draw a loyal card, add it to your hand, trigger Renly's ability.

 

I mean, nothing in Renly's text instructs me to reveal the card as I draw it. I process the draw fully, adding the card to my hand. I can even rearrange the cards in hand. I can trigger any other Reaction ability in response to the draw (maybe an ability identical to Renly's, on a card with a different name). And only after all that I can elect to trigger Renly's ability and reveal the card that I've drawn with insight. Because technically, neither adding the card to my hand nor rearranging cards in my hand prevents me from being able to reveal the card that I've drawn. It doesn't invalidate the triggering condition. Granted, my opponent has no way of being sure that I'm not cheating, but how's that my problem? I'm following all the rules here.

 

Is there anything in the RRG or the tournament rules that would prevent me from being able to trigger Renly's ability after I draw a card using insight, add it to my hand, and rearrange the order of cards in hand?

[Khudzlin]

The catch is that the rules don't say you can rearrange your hand (though I believe you can do so anyway). And actually, I would say that what you're doing in this scenario is Unsporting Conduct, since you're purposefully creating a situation where your opponent(s) cannot be sure your plays are legal.

[istaril]

As I see it, you have a couple options; 

 

You can draw it, shuffle around your hand, and then attempt to trigger Renly - to have your opponent call a judge on you to ensure your play is legal. They'll have no way of knowing it was, they won't allow the trigger, and they'll warn you for deliberately creating unclear board states (or something similar).

 

You can draw it in the presence of a judge (or call a judge), show it to the judge, then shuffle your hand, and show it to the player. The Judge will attest it's a legal play, but probably warn you for wasting their time.

[mnBroncos]

Yeah in a tournament you won't get away with shuffling the cards in your hand first. Also since you have to reveal the card there is no advantage to shuffling card anyways since have to give them the information of what card you drew from insight. Kinda trying to make this confusing when it really isn't. 

[hop]

Melee scenario

 

Player A (Tyrell sun) : Renly + Butterbumps

 

Player B (Stark) : Warded Bastard Daughter with Lady + The Pack Survives

 

Player C (Targ lion) : Blood of the dragon + Treachery

 

Player A triggers both insight simultaneously.

Player A triggers Renly on 1st insight-draw and reveals the 1st card.

Player C tries to cancel Renly using Treachery.

Player B cancels the Treachery sacrificing Lady for The Pack Survives.

Player B triggers Bastard Daughter who dies to Blood of the dragon without Lady str-buff.

Player A discards 1 card at random. He shuffles his hand to do so. (Then he resolves the Renly draw.)

Player A triggers Renly on 2nd insight-draw. Was the judge watching?

[ktom]

Granted, my opponent has no way of being sure that I'm not cheating, but how's that my problem? I'm following all the rules here.

 

Is there anything in the RRG or the tournament rules that would prevent me from being able to trigger Renly's ability after I draw a card using insight, add it to my hand, and rearrange the order of cards in hand?

 

Here's the thing to consider (RRG, p. 5 - Costs):

 

"If any part of a cost payment is prevented, once all costs that can be paid are paid, the process of initiating the ability or marshaling/playing the card immediately ends without further resolution."

 

 

Revealing the (loyal) card you just drew is a cost of triggering Renly's reaction. If something prevents you from revealing that card from your hand (say...making it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn, or because it was an event with a reaction to drawing a card and you played it before triggering Renly), you fail to pay the cost and Renly's ability stops resolving.

 

That's why it's your problem if your opponent has no way of knowing you are not cheating - if you can't assure them that the card being revealed is the card that was drawn for Insight, you are not actually paying the proper cost of the ability.

 

If you come back with the "I am, even if they don't know it" argument, then you are running right into Khudzlin's observation that you are running afoul of the sportsmanship rules - by (purposefully) obscuring your opponent's ability to ensure that the actual, required cost of Renly's ability has been paid.

 

The only other outcome from the "once it's in your hand, there's no way of knowing if it's the same card" is to acknowledge that it follows from there that Renly's ability can never be successfully triggered (because you would never be able to reveal a specific drawn card once it becomes part of the collective "hand") - and we usually interpret card abilities in a way that they can somehow work).

[bored2excess]

I am of the opinion that if someone were to try to shuffle their hand in the middle of renly's process and rules lawyer it out, they would be slapped vociferously.

[mplain]

Revealing the (loyal) card you just drew is a cost of triggering Renly's reaction. If something prevents you from revealing that card from your hand (say...making it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn, or because it was an event with a reaction to drawing a card and you played it before triggering Renly), you fail to pay the cost and Renly's ability stops resolving.

 

I do not agree that "making it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn" prevents the cost from being paid. This is really stretching it. Nothing in the rules would suggest this, and "common sense" shouldn't be applied so liberally.

 

Anyway, here's a more probable scenario:

 

I draw a card using insight, add it to my hand, then trigger his ability. I did not shuffle the cards in my hand, I just added the new card to the right or the left side of my deck. But my opponent wasn't paying attention, so now he cannot be sure that the card that i'm revealing (say, the rightmost card) is actually the card that I just drew.

 

I am not trying to purposely obfuscate the game state, but then again, my opponent cannot be sure that I do not have a malicious intent. Is it his fault that he wasn't looking where I put the new card in my hand? Or did I make it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn? I just followed the rules, which say that I must resolve the triggering condition fully (i.e. add the card to my hand) before triggering any reactions. I expect this scenario to happen frequently, more or less, so how do you deal with it?

[mnBroncos]

This is going to work just like miracles in magic. It's not that complicated if draw from insight look at the card before put it into your hand. If you can't clearly show was the card you just drew then can't trigger it. It's like resolving a summons and putting the card into your hand without showing it.

[ktom]

I do not agree that "making it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn" prevents the cost from being paid. This is really stretching it. Nothing in the rules would suggest this, and "common sense" shouldn't be applied so liberally.

 

It's not "common sense." It's as strict a reading of Renly's text as your reading of "draw." You have to reveal the (loyal) card that was drawn using Insight in order to pay the cost. If you reveal some other card, you have not paid the cost. I don't see how that is "stretching it."

 

Is it his fault that he wasn't looking where I put the new card in my hand? Or did I make it impossible to identify the card revealed as the card drawn?

 

 

Since it is your copy of Renly, your attempt to trigger the ability, your attempt to pay the ability's cost and your hidden information that is being revealed, I don't think it is a stretch to require you to make sure your opponent can connect the card revealed to the card drawn using Insight. If nothing else, it will save you a whole bunch of trouble for you because even if you are 100% honest, won't your "inattentive" opponent be following the rules just as much to call for a ruling each time you trigger Renly to ensure you are being honest?

 

Quite honestly, this whole discussion is kind of ridiculous because to the best of my knowledge, there is no definition anywhere saying that your "hand" is made up of the cards physically touching your body, or that any one card in your hand - though its text is hidden from your opponent - must be indistinguishable from all other cards in your hand. It's very easy to draw a card for Insight, look at it, and put it somewhere else (say, on top of Renly) - with the understanding that it is part of your hand, but still easily identifiable until you get past the point where Renly's ability can be triggered. 

 

In short - isn't a player responsible for the logistics of playing their own cards, particularly when it is this easy to do so?

[mplain]

My point is that Renly's controller can forget to use his ability right away, and add the card to hand before remembering to use Renly's ability. And this is the first and only situation in AGOT when strictly following rules and going one step at a time results in a missed opportunity / prevented cost. In my opinion, it's a bad wording that deserves a FAQ entry. But if you want to call my claim ridiculous - sure, fine.

[chem2702]

A heads up for OCTGN players: I think players drawing off Renly's insight are going to have to move the top card of their deck to the board face-down and then "peek" at it before attempting to trigger the reaction. I can see this causing issues.

[Khudzlin]

Bear in mind that Renly's reaction can be used for any Insight, not just Renly's own.

[chem2702]

This is true.

[RainKing]

Why don't you just send the question to Nate? I mean, that's how most questions you ask get resolved, right?

The intent is pretty clear: Pull the top card of your deck and look at it. If it is loyal, show it to your opponent and then draw another card.

[MasonT]

I have another question about him, insight aside...
Does his "Cannot be Saved" text include dupes?

[chem2702]

"Cannot" is absolute, so "cannot be saved" includes saving with dupes.

[mplain]

Best Answer

Got an answer form Nate:

 

Hello,

 

You must be able to demonstrate to the opponent that the just drawn card has loyalty. If through play error or through intent you mix the card with the others in your hand and cloud the issue, you have made it impossible to determine if the triggering condition is valid If you cannot clearly demonstrate that the just drawn card has loyalty, the opportunity to use the reaction is lost. It is important to maintain and communicate a clear game state with an opponent, and easy enough to protect yourself here. (Set the cards in your hand on the table before drawing, for instance.)

 

Nate French

Senior LCG Designer

Fantasy Flight Games