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New player with a couple of questions

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22 replies to this topic

#1
TeeCee

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Hi I’m new to the game and this site.

My husband and I were playing a few games recently to get to know it and demo to the community.
The rulebook and videos…kinda suck but with some help on FFG site’s we have muddled through. I know there is an FAQ but it’s so large and wordy we really haven’t had time to let it sink in.
I have 2 questions for you (also why must I Toggle off the "Editing Mode" to use the Enter key to skip lines?).

1- The Syndicate’s Tattoo Artist states that “After Tattoo Artist is committed to a Story, choose a character…”

Does this mean that immediately after she is committed to a Story she must choose to use her Response, before the opponent commits characters to Stories. Or is this simply a condition which must first be met before she can use her Response; thus allowing her to target an opposing character afterwards as needed?

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2- Temporal Slip states “Disrupt: After an Icon struggle effect resolves, choose an Icon struggle. Resolve that struggle as if you had won it”.

I was using this to counter my husband’s Hastur Character’s Terror struggle. Re-reading we’re not sure if this actually skips the struggle and lets me win it or instead the struggle would still happen; he would win it and apply its effects, and then I would get to choose any Icon struggle at that Story and resolve its effects as if I had won it?

Posted Image

#2
WasteMaLife

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Welcome to CoC.,.. it is a great game but can be pretty brutal.

1- The Syndicate’s Tattoo Artist states that “After Tattoo Artist is committed to a Story, choose a character…”

Does this mean that immediately after she is committed to a Story she must choose to use her Response, before the opponent commits characters to Stories. Or is this simply a condition which must first be met before she can use her Response; thus allowing her to target an opposing character afterwards as needed?

Posted Image


No, this is in fact a common mistake people make, even vets. When you commit to a story everyone commits at the same time.. there is no timing windows as you select each character. So you select everyone to commit to stories, and then after everyone is selected you commit all at once.

You can see it most clearly with Ravager from the Deep (core)... is says...

Forced Response: After Ravager from the Deep is committed to a story, wound all other characters at that


This can lead some players to thinking that the order they choose characters to commit has some relevance and in truth this is a more intuitive way.. but as ALL chosen characters commit in a single moment.. hit effect wounds everyone.

2- Temporal Slip states “Disrupt: After an Icon struggle effect resolves, choose an Icon struggle. Resolve that struggle as if you had won it”.

I was using this to counter my husband’s Hastur Character’s Terror struggle. Re-reading we’re not sure if this actually skips the struggle and lets me win it or instead the struggle would still happen; he would win it and apply its effects, and then I would get to choose any Icon struggle at that Story and resolve its effects as if I had won it?

Posted Image


Um, I am confused exactly to what your asking.. but this is how this card works...

This is a disrupt... as soon as any icon struggle resolves this can be triggered to "disrupt" it. You may then choose to win the same struggle just disrupted. You may also choose a struggle that has not yet been resolved at all. This will allow the original struggle to finish as normal, but you could get a struggle to trigger twice.. effectively adding a struggle.
  • Your at a story you both have terror icons
  • after the terror struggle resolves you cast slip...
  • you choose the skull struggle.. it immediately resolves
  • the terror struggle was not changed so now finished as normal.. you both have terror so nothing happens
  • you now have the normal skull struggle
Or you could loose a the terror struggle and when you cast it choose the terror struggle. You now win that struggle.

#3
blinovitch

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Or you could loose a the terror struggle and when you cast it choose the terror struggle. You now win that struggle.

In this case, it would be a second struggle of that type, right?

I've been understanding Temporal Slip to replace the effect of the first icon struggle with one the player chooses. This is interesting.

#4
Wilbur

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[*]the terror struggle was not changed so now finished as normal..

No. It was 'finished' as a prerequisite to playing your card. Since the card specifically states that it can be played only after "an icon struggle effect resolves", you can't preempt the terror struggle.

#5
WasteMaLife

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no.. check the card text...
  • After a icon struggle resolves,
    • This is the game event that has to occur for the disrupt to trigger. So ANY icon struggle. It is a disrupt, so the effects of the disrupt happens before (precedes) the game state that allowed it to trigger.
  • choose an Icon struggle.
    • This is saying you "choose a icon struggle" there is no mention of any conditions... you simply choose one, ANY one.
  • Resolve that struggle as if you had won it
    • You then resolve that struggle you chose.
    • There is nothing in the text to say it replaces the struggle, it just instantly resolves a "chosen struggle"
    • As per disrupt rules (p11 FAQ) and Story Resolution rules (P11 FAQ) a disrupt of a story resolution occurs immediately and NOT in a single window (like responses)
    • So after the disrupt ends, NORMAL story resolution continues
End result, this card is not a "cancel and replace" of a story struggle. All it dose is insert a struggle of your choice that you automatically win before the struggle you used to trigger.

So... if you use a combat struggle as the trigger, and choose the combat struggle as the target what happens is that you end up automatically winning the combat struggle and then the original combat struggle still resolves.

Page 11 FAQ

Disrupt effects can be played immediately, whenever their play requirement is met, and their resolution precedes the resolution of the occurrence that allowed the disrupt to be triggered.


So while the struggle completes, the disrupt and the chosen struggle happens before it.

Disrupts do not CANCEL. This is a common mistake as many disrupt cards remove form play cards and as the disrupt effect proceeds the cards effect... then if the card is no longer in play its effect can not trigger.. and this acts like a cancel

As stories are not removed from play and this card dose not use a words like INSTEAD or something ... the original struggle still finishes.. regardless of the disrupt, as disrupts are not in themselves cancels.

#6
Wilbur

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Yes, you'll note that it was terror I specifically said you couldn't preempt. The game state cost is the resolution of an icon struggle, so, again, it's terror you can't preempt. If you look at the OP, you'll find that the new player is trying to combat her "husband's Hastur Character's Terror struggle".

#7
dboeren

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Just plain answers:

1. "After" means immediately after, not anytime after. So as soon as you commit Tattoo Artist you must choose whether to use her ability.

2. For Temporal Slip - after an icon struggle resolves and it's normal effect happens, you may then execute the win effect of any icon struggle. So, if your opponent has just won Terror one of your guys will still go insane. Then you play the card and you can name a struggle and pretend you just won it. You could pick Combat and kill one of their guys, or Investigation and get a success token, or whatever you want. But it does not replace their struggle, it is in addition to it.
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#8
jasonconlon

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1- The Syndicate’s Tattoo Artist states that “After Tattoo Artist is committed to a Story, choose a character…”

Does this mean that immediately after she is committed to a Story she must choose to use her Response, before the opponent commits characters to Stories. Or is this simply a condition which must first be met before she can use her Response; thus allowing her to target an opposing character afterwards as needed?

Responses detail the condition that must be met for you to trigger its effect, which opens a window for you to play that card. The window closes when the next player or framework action opportunity occurs, so you have to trigger it before then.
For Tattoo Artist, this means immediately after she (along with any other of your participating characters) is committed to a story, which as an attacker means triggering the Response at the end of 5.ii), because when 5.iii) rolls around it's time for Actions which is too late - referring to the Detailed Turn Sequence diagram in the rule book for the Story phase, of:
5.i) Actions may be taken
5.ii) [You (active player commit character to stories)]
5.iii) Actions may be taken
5.iv) [Opponent (non-active player) commits character to oppose yours]
5.vi) Actions may be taken
5.vii) <Resolve stories>
5.viii) [Response to struggle and success results may be played]
5.ix) Actions may be taken
5.x) [Characters are uncommitted from stories]
Note that no Actions can be played in [square]-bracketed steps; and no Actions or Responses can be played in <angle>-bracketed steps; but Disrupts can, and Forced Responses must, be played at the moment indicated on the card.

You'll note that the 5.vii) <Resolve stories> step, where most of the action happens (e.g. characters going insane from losing Terror, or taking a wound from losing Combat), does not permit Responses (or Actions) to be played at this time. For cards like Military Advisor (Response: After Military Advisor is wounded, pay 2 to choose and wound a character with skill lower than Military Advisor.), if he loses Combat and takes a wound what happens is that a window has opened for his Response. He can't trigger it at that moment, because no Responses are allowed, but the window for his Response and any other similar cards carries over to step 5.viii) [Response to struggle and success results may be played] after all the stories are resolved. The Responses window closes at the next player or framework action opportunity arises, which for struggle/story-related is with step 5.ix) Actions may be taken.

One last note about Responses is that they happen after the described occurrence, whereas Disrupts have the ability to insert themselves before, during or after the occurrence as described on the card. For Military Advisor, this means if the wound he had taken was fatal (e.g. he'd exceeded his Toughness +2 in taking a third wound), he would die from the wound before he could trigger his Response. Whereas Forest Sister (Disrupt: Pay 1 to cancel a wound to Forest Sister.) could use her Disrupt ability to prevent being destroyed from a wound she was about to receive.

2- Temporal Slip states “Disrupt: After an Icon struggle effect resolves, choose an Icon struggle. Resolve that struggle as if you had won it”.

I was using this to counter my husband’s Hastur Character’s Terror struggle. Re-reading we’re not sure if this actually skips the struggle and lets me win it or instead the struggle would still happen; he would win it and apply its effects, and then I would get to choose any Icon struggle at that Story and resolve its effects as if I had won it?

"choose an Icon struggle. Resolve that struggle as if you had won it" means that you can choose any icon struggle effect to occur in your favour; inserted as an additional struggle that you automatically win, and not as a replacement.
"After an icon struggle effect resolves" means after one struggle has fully completed, including any consequences (e.g. after a Terror struggle has occurred and, if there was a loser with a susceptible character, one character has gone insane as a result), and before the next struggle begins. (Note that this is different to the timing described by WasteMaLife.)
Here is the general wording guide for struggle timing, taken from the three-part conversation here --
* Before a struggle resolves - this must be triggered after whatever the last player or framework action ends but before the struggle event begins.
* When a struggle resolves - this must be triggered when the struggle begins, after the previous player or framework action but before any calculation is made.
* When you would win/lose a struggle - this must be triggered when the winner/loser is determined, after the icon calculations are made but before the effect of the struggle is applied.
* After you lose/win a struggle - this must be triggered after the result of the struggle has resolved, after calculations, but before moving to the next framework action.
I take Temporal Slip's "After an icon struggle effect resolves" to be a variant of 'After you lose/win a struggle'.

#9
WasteMaLife

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2. For Temporal Slip - after an icon struggle resolves and it's normal effect happens,


no ... Before.. disrupts precede the game state that trigger it.

So say your facing a creature with terror, you play the event as a disrupt AFTER the terror struggle.. you choose the combat struggle and this gets inserted BEFORE the effects of the terror struggle are applied. The terror struggle still resolves even if you remove the creature with the terror icon as the story itself is stil in play and then a 2nd combat struggle (the normal one) happens.

#10
Danigral

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no ... Before.. disrupts precede the game state that trigger it.

So say your facing a creature with terror, you play the event as a disrupt AFTER the terror struggle.. you choose the combat struggle and this gets inserted BEFORE the effects of the terror struggle are applied. The terror struggle still resolves even if you remove the creature with the terror icon as the story itself is stil in play and then a 2nd combat struggle (the normal one) happens.

I can see where the confusion is coming from, but the reason this card is a disrupt is simply so that it can be played during the resolution of stories, when you normally can't play actions or responses. The confusion is the result of one issue: when does the effect resolve, before or after the thing that triggered it? There is a contradiction in the card's text and the FAQ because it has to trigger "after a struggle resolves" (and resolves means that the effect happens fully), but the FAQ says that it precedes the resolution of the thing that triggered it. It's a contradiction, which I'm sure Damon has a paradoxical solution to.

EDIT: It's oddly ironic and apropos that the title of the card is Temporal Slip, which resolving this card requires. haha

#11
jasonconlon

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Page 11 FAQ

Disrupt effects can be played immediately, whenever their play requirement is met, and their resolution precedes the resolution of the occurrence that allowed the disrupt to be triggered.


So while the struggle completes, the disrupt and the chosen struggle happens before it.

"Precedes" in the context of the FAQ means that the Disrupt gets priority over whatever it is disrupting, but that doesn't mean it always inserts itself "before" the effect. If the disrupt says "after" then that's when it happens - in this instance with the struggle fully resolved and a struggle effect applied, following which Temporal Slip inserts an additional auto-win struggle before any remaining struggles are resolved.
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#12
WasteMaLife

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ahh yeah.. that is correct.. I see what your saying..
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#13
Wilbur

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I RestMaCase.

#14
TeeCee

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Well a big Thank You everyone for your many posts and help.
So no clue as to why must I Toggle off the "Editing Mode" to use the Enter key to skip lines? Guess its a "me" thing lol.

One last question just to clarify the Tattoo Artist timing. my Husband's Sweet Old Lady's (as an example of Character commitment timing) ability would only ever come into play when it is his (Active player's) Story phase?

Posted Image

And for those wondering yes I was using Temporal Slip as a Cancel or Replace effect for my husband's winning Terror effect. He will be happy now as he is finding Hastur's focus on Insanity (which is what drew him to the game)a little frustrating with so many things negating Terror... He's really hoping for Hastur as next deluxe box.

#15
Saint7x

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Hi Teecee,

Welcome to the game - it's fantastic and I hope you and your husband get a lot of enjoyment from it.

Thanks to all of the more senior members as I realized I was playing 'Temporal Slip' wrong all these months (whooops). I agree that the wording on the card is a little bit confusing.

I guess, in the case of Temporal Slip, it is somewhat similar but not exactly like 'Clover Club Ringer' ?

http://www.fantasyfl...club-ringer.png

#16
WasteMaLife

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One last question...


hehe.. I doubt it!


One last question just to clarify the Tattoo Artist timing. my Husband's Sweet Old Lady's (as an example of Character commitment timing) ability would only ever come into play when it is his (Active player's) Story phase?

Posted Image


Yes, while everyone commits at the same time, it is still "per player". So her effect only makes sense if you commit her on the active players turn. Active player commits, the opponent commits... but now has to pay 2.


He will be happy now as he is finding Hastur's focus on Insanity (which is what drew him to the game)a little frustrating with so many things negating Terror... He's really hoping for Hastur as next deluxe box.


A lot of people come to the game in a similar way. Insanity is a very cool idea in this game that is one of the things most new players get into. Unfortunately it is a rather difficult condition to get to work. A single terror icon and you can not do it.. so tell him to look into icon manipulation. Also a good idea is to focus on sending your own characters insane, and not your opponents. In fact there is something to this and you can always hit your own insanity and there are some funky effects witch can be achieved like this.


I guess, in the case of Temporal Slip, it is somewhat similar but not exactly like 'Clover Club Ringer' ?



Disrupt: When an opponent wins a struggle at a story where Clover Club Ringer is committed, you also win that struggle. (The active player resolves their struggle first.)
Limit once per turn


sorta, this uses "THAT" in the line... so it i in fact effecting "that struggle" targeted by the disrupt. So unlike slip it is not adding a new one.. simply saying you both win (active player first). Remember disrupts are not forced effects so you can still choose witch struggle you would like to use.

#17
dboeren

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One last question just to clarify the Tattoo Artist timing. my Husband's Sweet Old Lady's (as an example of Character commitment timing) ability would only ever come into play when it is his (Active player's) Story phase?


She has to already be committed for her ability to work. So 99.9% of the time that means that it's Sweet Old Lady's turn. There are some cards that can keep a character committed to a story longer than usual though so it's not quite 100%. For instance, Voice of the Jungle.


And for those wondering yes I was using Temporal Slip as a Cancel or Replace effect for my husband's winning Terror effect. He will be happy now as he is finding Hastur's focus on Insanity (which is what drew him to the game) a little frustrating with so many things negating Terror... He's really hoping for Hastur as next deluxe box.


I can sympathize with that. Some cards to check out would include The Marked, The Enchanted Wood, and Sweet Dreams to help remove some protection. Or, check out any of the numerous Lunatic characters for Hastur that drive themselves insane for useful effects. Or finally, consider diversifying. Some things can't go crazy easily, but they're often great targets for Hastur's take-control effects for instance :)

#18
jasonconlon

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I guess, in the case of Temporal Slip, it is somewhat similar but not exactly like 'Clover Club Ringer' ?

It's similar in that it there will be an additional struggle effect, but it's different in terms of:
* the timing to play it (i.e. this one is played mid-struggle - after a winner is determined but before the struggle effect occurs);
* it is limited to a struggle type that the opponent wins; and
* technically it's not introducing a new struggle (i.e. it's permitting two winners and two instances of the one struggle's effect).

#19
Farquhar

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I can sympathize with that. Some cards to check out would include The Marked, The Enchanted Wood, and Sweet Dreams to help remove some protection. Or, check out any of the numerous Lunatic characters for Hastur that drive themselves insane for useful effects. Or finally, consider diversifying. Some things can't go crazy easily, but they're often great targets for Hastur's take-control effects for instance :)


Well, I am this husband in question, hi babe :)

Yes I have loved the King in Yellow for many a year and he is what got me into this game (I may even post a pic of my Herald of the Tattered King cosplay someday). We have many other of the FFG Mythos game already which are all great in there own way.

I have looked into the Lunatics mechanics and might go with them once we have time to understand the game better and afford more of the cards. I hope Hastur is the next Mythos box as I think this will help some. I'm not sure I have the control cards you mentioned.

Currently I'm running a mono Syndicate deck and a dual Hastur/ Syndicate deck with some willpower and terror icon negation.
I have to say that the Denizens of the Underworld expansion has made my Syndicate deck fearsome (at least the small pond that we play in).

#20
dboeren

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Good to meet you :)

Yes, of course being new to the game your card pool isn't that comprehensive - my intention was more to:
1. Show that tools exist
2. If you really wanted to pursue an insanity strategy this might help you decide which packs to get next

In recent releases there have also been more cards that buff insanity like San Servolo or Tattered Cloak too.

A lot of people have expressed that they're hoping for Hastur to be next, I'd like to get my hands on that box too. We don't know anything officially, but so far FFG still seems to be following the Human/Mythos/Setting pattern so if that holds true it will either be Cthulhu, Hastur, or Shub. One in three shot.

Yes, you should totally post your cosplay pics :)