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Recent Card Discussion
Inject
****-

Today, 12:32 AM by KillerShrike

Ya, I started to piece together the Quetzal deck I broadbrushed previously, using this card as a key piece. It is coming together nicely, and I'm starting to rethink my position on Quetzal as I think thru the options. Hopefully I'll be able to get some play time in this weekend and will give the deck a spin.

Origami
***--

Today, 12:23 AM by KillerShrike

Just saw the spoiler for Ekomind. This card makes more sense in that context.

Trade-In
**---

Yesterday, 09:27 PM by KillerShrike

If you are so opposed to the word "crap" then why did you introduce it to the conversation?

 

Wow, that's a really good point. Because I totally said exactly that and you are not in any way stating things that I never actually said or completely ducking under comprehension of what ad hominem attack means, or misconstruing the situation whatsoever.

 

Your logic and debating skills are amazing, and I am beyond impressed...indeed, I am humbled by your incredible genius and unmatched lexical mastery.  Well played, sir. Well played. Game set match Nerdmeister. Here's your trophy, bask in the glory of it.

 

And now that you've totally won with your unparralleled rhetoric, perhaps we can get back to the point of discussion.

 

 

Q-Chip could also be a cost-effective way of having enough MU for something like cache (which can be traded in quickly) or Lamprey (which is always in danger of being trashed anyway).

Now please tell me that 2 examples are not enough to justify that point of view and that you require more.

 

I don't require you to justify your point of view. As I said...

 

 

So, hey; go ahead and include them in your deck and sacrifice them to trade in if it makes you happy. You're welcome to your opinion of course, and there is no "bad fun"; I just don't happen to agree with you.

 

If, for some reason, you feel like playing Q-Coherence Chip no one is stopping you. You aren't going to convince me that it is a good idea however.

 

However, this thread is about Trade In, not Q-Coherence Chip. My stated opinion is, that Trade In is not a good card. Details of why have been provided.

 

If you don't agree, that's totally fine. I'm perfectly ok with that.

 

If your position is "playing Q-Coherence Chip with Trade In is great!", well ok then. Go make that deck; and good luck with it.

Trade-In
**---

Yesterday, 08:50 AM by Nerdmeister

 

Maybe just an unnecessary ad hominem attack? Way to be classy.

 

 

 

If you are so opposed to the word "crap" then why did you introduce it to the conversation?

 

Q-Chip could also be a cost-effective way of having enough MU for something like cache (which can be traded in quickly) or Lamprey (which is always in danger of being trashed anyway).

Now please tell me that 2 examples are not enough to justify that point of view and that you require more.

Inject
****-

Oct 21 2014 06:38 PM by Accelerandom

Good substitute for Diesel/Quality Time in an Anarch deck, along with Deja Vu to retrieve the lost viruses. 

Autoscripter
***--

Oct 21 2014 05:34 PM by Him

Great with Modded too.

Trade-In
**---

Oct 21 2014 03:13 PM by KillerShrike

Granting Shapers the ability to run just one copy of Desperado sounds pretty cool to me. With the new console Astrolabe you won't mind to much swapping it for an R&D Interface late game (in both the cases where you got Astrolabe late or early). You can also reduce the copies of The Toolbox, since the second one is always a brick, but you'd like to see one often enough.

Search effects are very powerfull, so it's natural there needs to be a cost attached to it. But being able to fetch anything you're needing that exact moment, trading up an Akamatsu Mem Chip or another less important Hardware is quite good. Replicator also cames to mind... you can trade away the extra copies freely and bring about any hardware you might be running, perhaps some Lockpicks or Silencers for your stealth rig?

Don't forget also the extreme cases where you Trade an R&D Interface or CyberSolutions Mem Chip (something more important, let's say) for a Plascrete... sounds bad, but it's definately better than losing the game, no?

It has its usages and as any search effect, I think this might see some play. It also shares the commom "added-value" like SMC or Test Run, as more Hardware come out, this card will just get better, never worse!

 

I'm not questioning the value or power of tutor effects; obviously tutor effects are generally good, that is card game 101.

 

I'm questioning the value and power of this particular tutor effect, as it is more niche and less efficient than the other tutor effects available...so much so that normal levels of increased card draw already found in many decks will often prove to be a more reliable way of getting the desired card.

 

Is it a virtual auto-include in certain decks like SMC? No. Is it a go-to card in and out of faction like Special Order that can slide into almost any deck? No. Are there some uses for it in decks that fit a certain profile? Maybe. Is it a strong card in a very specialized niche deck? Maybe.

 

 

To me, Plascrete is probably the most compelling reason to play Trade In at all as it is a card that will save you vs tag & bag and is useless in most other match ups. In the games you need it and you need it now, it's worth it to sac something useful but not essential to it. And in the games you don't need it, it might be worth it to install Plascrete to feed it to Trade In to go get something sufficiently strong.

 

So, the target deck would run Plascrete, some other misc hardware, and another piece of hardware that is worth the overhead of tutoring for it. Maybe 2 copies of Plascrete, 2 copies of the other "desirable" pieces of hardware, maybe 2-6 other pieces of hardware, 2-3 Trade Ins. That's a lot of deck slots but, it is an option and it might save you from getting burned out sometimes.

 

Trade In probably fits well into a Replicator deck if the card slots are available as it already fits the profile of a "good fit" for the card, and there is some synergy there as having some extra hardware that could be sac'd is already a "natural" outcome of using Replicator.

 

But zooming back to look at decks in general, Trade In is not as useful or as splashable as many of the other tutor effects, and it does not naturally fuel certain game-winning strategies in the same way SMC does or synergize with certain powerful cards in the same way that Test Run does. Etc.

 

Peoples mileage will vary, obviously, but looking at the top decks today and then looking at this card I don't see it becoming a thing in the current card pool and meta. I could be wrong. As the card pool grows it might become "the answer" to getting some new uber hardware into the game. Until then, I expect to see this card sit in my card box.

Trade-In
**---

Oct 21 2014 02:39 PM by KillerShrike

Used the chip to great effect myself. Maybe just crap cards to crap players?

 

Maybe just an unnecessary ad hominem attack? Way to be classy.

 

I don't think it's news that Q-Coherence Chip is generally regarded as a bad card. It has an unfortunate ruling associated with it that renders it even more suboptimal than it's text already does (see below). It carries a 2 rating on this site, and it is generally panned in set reviews.

 

By all means, even bad cards can be put to good use in the right deck, but including weak / sub-par cards in your deck makes your deck worse than it otherwise would be, and if you are doing it for the express purpose of having some fodder to sacrifice to fuel some other effect...particularly if that effect can otherwise be realized more effectively without resorting to suboptimal includes...it is even worse.

 

So, hey; go ahead and include them in your deck and sacrifice them to trade in if it makes you happy. You're welcome to your opinion of course, and there is no "bad fun"; I just don't happen to agree with you. I await the day your Q-Coherence Chip / Public Terminal + Trade In deck lights the world on fire with its pure awesomeness.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
The recently spoiled card Q-Coherence Chip reads "Trash Q-Coherence Chip when a program is trashed." Does that apply to programs trashed from the Runner's grip (due to damage and/or discarding) or only to programs trashed from in play?

Lukas's response:

Quote:
Thanks for the question. Yes, that does apply to programs that are trashed while they are not installed. Hope that helps,

 
Trade-In
**---

Oct 21 2014 12:10 PM by ashtaroth

Granting Shapers the ability to run just one copy of Desperado sounds pretty cool to me. With the new console Astrolabe you won't mind to much swapping it for an R&D Interface late game (in both the cases where you got Astrolabe late or early). You can also reduce the copies of The Toolbox, since the second one is always a brick, but you'd like to see one often enough.

Search effects are very powerfull, so it's natural there needs to be a cost attached to it. But being able to fetch anything you're needing that exact moment, trading up an Akamatsu Mem Chip or another less important Hardware is quite good. Replicator also cames to mind... you can trade away the extra copies freely and bring about any hardware you might be running, perhaps some Lockpicks or Silencers for your stealth rig?

Don't forget also the extreme cases where you Trade an R&D Interface or CyberSolutions Mem Chip (something more important, let's say) for a Plascrete... sounds bad, but it's definately better than losing the game, no?

It has its usages and as any search effect, I think this might see some play. It also shares the commom "added-value" like SMC or Test Run, as more Hardware come out, this card will just get better, never worse!

Blue Sun: Powering the Future
*****

Oct 21 2014 12:02 PM by OrxianSedai

This ID makes Weyland viable, yes, but there's nothing broken about it. Besides providing a few decent combos ( which other factions have in plenty, corp and runner alike ) it doesn't offer that much. There're plenty of ways to deal with big ICE these days not to mention Nasir ( 14 creds for curtain wall, thank you ) also Social Engineering. It's also quite weak against aggro runner, since your ability lets recycle ice in one place and you loose clicks for re installing. Also this ID doesn't provide that extra cred for transactions. 

Origami
***--

Oct 21 2014 10:01 AM by EdTheMad

I'm pretty sure that Meadbeard is correct.

Trade-In
**---

Oct 21 2014 06:53 AM by Nerdmeister

Both of which are crap cards. 

 

Used the chip to great effect myself. Maybe just crap cards to crap players?

Fester
***--

Oct 21 2014 05:26 AM by TheGreasyThumb
I agree that this hints at new Anarch deck archetypes. I think that building overly virus reliant decks has been a mistake until now (even Noise cares about installing viruses more than running them). This nerfs the corps' built in counter. I think the challenge with this is going to be to build a deck that regularly builds up dangerous viral threats, whilst also having ways to take advantage of the Corp being broke.
Peak Efficiency
***--

Oct 21 2014 05:15 AM by TheGreasyThumb
I think it compares really favorably to commercialization. Commercialization rewards you for building a giant ICE with a million advancement tokens on. That's not something you do unless its your deck's whole plan, and even then commercialization only pays back your credits invested. By contrast, most corp decks are gonna want to Rez a bunch of ICE over the course of the game. Getting paid for something you would have done anyway is great. Weyland glaciers are definitely a thing, so they can find a use for this without it being a transaction I think.
Blue Sun: Powering the Future
*****

Oct 21 2014 02:19 AM by LCGAddict

Okay, if no-one else will say it, I will: this ID is stupidly powerful.

 

Combined with Oversight AI (with, say, Curtain Wall or Janus) this is 3 clicks for 13-14 credits.*  Not to mention the added gain in being able to rearrange and rerez Ice.  Also extremely good in combination with The Root.  This is miles ahead of any similar ID ability.  You don't need to do that much in order to have all the credits you need for the game, so don't expect that Corp would need to use this ability every turn - just a few times.  (I have playtested this and it is every bit as ruinous as it looks on paper.)

 

Expect to see this ID ruin tournament play for a while, until it is either hosed or (better yet) banned.

 

 

 

* Supporting Calculation: There are 2 clicks to play the Ice with Oversight AI on it and 1 click to draw to replace loss of Oversight AI.  Gain 14-15 credits minus 1 credit for cost of Oversight AI.

Fester
***--

Oct 20 2014 06:08 PM by KillerShrike

This is a frustrating card. Obviously, if you are going to include it at all, it is a 3-of to get it on the board early and to stack up the effect as the game progresses.

 

However, at least in the games I play as Anarch, the Corp purges viruses maybe once or twice a game. Three times at the outside.

 

Now, I have been in a few odd games where the corp kept purging to save a key piece of ice from parasite or to floor Darwin, but those are edge cases and not business as usual.

 

So is it worth 3 card slots to ping the Corp for between $0 to $10 a game, and further to give the Corp control over the tax's trigger (i.e. the Corp owns the decision to purge or not purge and thus whether to pay the tax or not)? Generally, I would say "no".

 

The next thing to look at is tempo. Getting purged is a tempo killer for Anarch. The Corp takes a full-turn tempo hit, but if it takes the Anarch several turns to recover their board state to equivalent potency the Corp still "wins" that tempo shift. But imposing some click equivalent credit impact helps tilt that over towards a break even. Yet...the 1 click to draw plus 1 credit and 1 click to install hit to get a Fester into play in the first place works against this. So, I would still say "not worth it".

 

If the card didn't say "IF ABLE", it could be possible to combine this with more general econ denial and functionally turn it into "the corporation cannot purge viruses this turn because they can't afford it". However, it does say "if able" so there is anti-synergy with Vamp, Account Siphon, and Reina Roja type tricks as a broke Corporation might as well take the opportunity to purge viruses thus dodging the Fester tax.

 

So...yeah...in the current card pool the only compelling cases I see for Fester are 1) you are installing multiple copies of Datasucker and spamming virus counters on them via frequent runs and therefore are more vulnerable to more frequent than usual purges, 2) you are relying on Medium or Nerve Agent for multi access as your primary win condition and getting purged can cost you a game, and 3) you are using Darwin as your primary breaker and getting purged locks you out of servers for several turns while virus counters rebuild.

 

However, some of the spoiled cards for Anarch reveal that virus counter shenanigans are on the rise, and Fester will definitely become a card to consider in the next few months as the new cards roll out.

Peak Efficiency
***--

Oct 20 2014 05:50 PM by KillerShrike

Sort of comparable to Commercialization as a mid to late game burst econ card.

 

I just wish it were also a "Transaction". Seems like it should be, and it would slot ok into some core set Weyland decks.

 

I'm planning to (finally) make a Foundry deck when Next Gold and Merlin are available, and this card is an auto-include for that notional deck.

Inject
****-

Oct 20 2014 05:35 PM by KillerShrike

I'm on the fence on this one. This would make my Noise deck patently WORSE, which prebiases me against it.

 

BUT, I could certainly see combining this with expensive to install programs or maybe Overmind as main breaker and pairing it with Retrieval Run and Clone Chips, plus maybe Planned Assault and Same Old Thing. Parasites to kill off Wraparound and Swordsman, maybe David, maybe E3, maybe Pawnshop, maybe Deja Vu as a safety net. This card then becomes primarily card draw; and when it does happen to trash a program it just enables Retrieval Run. Might be a good vehicle for Quetzal.

 

It packs a lot of efficiency into one card, which is something I like. It just does it in an unpredictable way, which is something I don't like. I have a feeling that when I need credits I'll get draw and when I want draw I'll get credits and trash programs I actually want in hand. Murphy's Law.

 

Basically, I'll have to try it out before rating it.

Origami
***--

Oct 20 2014 05:26 PM by KillerShrike

OK, yeah, Duggar's, which I think is a more useful a combo than initially appears:

 

Am I reading this correctly?

 

"Your maximum hand size is increased by 1 for each copy of Origami installed."

 

I.e. 3 copies of Origami = 9 more cards in hand (so a limit of 14), not 3 more in hand (which would read "Your maximum hand size is increased by 1").

 

It's origami; it multiplies as it folds.

 

That's my understanding of how it works, but I'm not sure if there has been any official confirmation. The wording could be a little better to be sure.

Labyrinthine Servers
**---

Oct 20 2014 05:22 PM by KillerShrike

It's nice to have options, but...this card is just not good generally speaking, in my opinion.

 

A tricky-trappy deck with porous gauntlet ice generally is going to have a more difficult time scoring a 5/3 in the first place. And then once it is scored, it will sit there in the scored area plain to see.

 

Basically, traps work best versus less skilled or overly aggressive players, or when the Corp is sitting at game point and thus the Runner has forced plays. Better players are adept at dealing with the board state. When this card is scored the Runner is aware of the board state it creates, and can play around it unless the Corp is at game point and their plays are being forced...which is exactly the same case as when this card is not scored. So what does it add exactly?

 

If this were attached to a 3/1 with say 1 token that would be a maybe-include in a core set Jinteki deck where it serves a dual purpose of effect + net damage. But at 5/3, in a faction that has Future Perfect...um not so much.



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