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A Game of Thrones 2nd Edition
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Today, 05:43 PM by mplain
With the current wording, Roose will be sacrificed before Treachery can even be played, yes. With any of my suggested wordings, he wouldn't be sacrificed if his ability would get cancelled.
I doubt FFG will add this to the FAQ. They only add issues that are not clear enough from reading the RRG. This matter is non-ambiguous.
Today, 03:38 PM by wordsmith
And Roose will be sacrificed.
Btw Rules Reference specifically singles out the word "Then" so maybe that was the reasoning of Palpa to bring it out. Maybe a tip for next FAQ...
Today, 01:52 PM by mplain
The magic word here is " to ". "Do X to do Y" is the format in which costs are written, and costs (X) are paid in full before effects (Y) initiate.
Effects could be worded in many ways:
- Sacrifice Roose. Then, kill...
- Sacrifice Roose. Kill...
- Sacrifice Roose and kill...
These would all be prevented by Treachery.
A Tourney for the King
Today, 01:46 PM by mplain
Winter is Coming does not *directly* affect your opponent's characters, and immunity to events doesn't protect them from military claim.
Today, 12:35 PM by Palpa
Good. So the magic word here is 'then'. If Rose would be "Sacrifice Roose Bolton,then kill each of those characters.", then treachery would result in Roose not being sacrificed, correct?
A Tourney for the King
Today, 10:46 AM by stpleco
If opponent has this plot out, and a couple of knights and a couple of non-knights, and I play winter is coming after winning a military challenge, is the claim still 2?
Yesterday, 09:47 PM by wordsmith
Sacrifice is a cost, Treachery cancels only the effect. So yes he is sacrificed and treachery cancels his kill effect.
Yesterday, 09:31 PM by Palpa
I admit I'm still confused by the Winterfell discussion. So: if I cancel Roose with Treachery, is he still sacrificed or not?
Mar 21 2017 02:10 PM by mplain
- Valar initiates
- Interrupts trigger (while characters are still in play)
- Valar resolves (and removes characters from play)
Mar 21 2017 02:02 PM by mplain
Bodyguard cannot save from being removed from the game (only from being killed or discarded). A duplicate can save from any "leaves play" effect though. But if you trigger Varys and save him with a dupe, you effectively prevent the cost of his ability from being paid, and so the effect does not resolve.
If any part of a cost payment is prevented, once all costs that can be paid are paid, the process of initiating the ability or marshaling/playing the card immediately ends without further resolution.
Mar 21 2017 12:05 PM by stpleco
If you have Varys duplicated, when you remove him from the game, what happens to the dupe? Does it get removed from the game too or discarded?
Also, if I have a bodyguard on Varys, I take it the bodyguard cannot save Varys from being removed from the game?
I was playing a game online and the opponent did use it to save him, which didn't seem right but I didn't question it as I wasn't certain.
Mar 20 2017 03:49 PM by stpleco
If I have Robb and Jory and my opponent plays Valar can I use Jory to save Robb?
Mar 20 2017 12:11 PM by Ratadin
Also, melee. I can assure you she is a gamechanger on melee.
Mar 20 2017 09:53 AM by mplain
You cannot use a duplicate to save a character from being sacrificed. Sacrifice = cannot be saved. Regardless of whether the sacrifice is a cost to use an ability, or a card effect.
Mar 20 2017 09:30 AM by wordsmith
So in case of Falen From Favor example - character was sacrificed so it cannot be saved. Or more in general note, hypothetical case: if I control a character with dupe and some game effect orders me to sacrifice it then I cannot use the dupe to save it? Correct?
I just want to understand the wording and priorities. I think it is good that we explain it here so also others won't get confused.
It is just coincidence, nothing personal those are just good targets for Ward.
Mar 20 2017 09:16 AM by Palpa
What disturbs me in all these Scenarios is that you only ward Stark characters (Arya, Bran)
Mar 20 2017 08:53 AM by mplain
Sacrifice CAN be cancelled (if it's a part of an effect, not a cost). For example, Gendry's ability can be cancelled by Treachery. But you cannot use a duplicate to save Gendry from being sacrificed.
A duplicate can be used to save a character from leaving play, unless:
- The effect that makes a character leave play says "(cannot be saved)";
- The character is sacrificed (RRG: "A sacrificed card cannot be saved.")
Mar 20 2017 08:18 AM by wordsmith
Sacrifice cannot be canceled but duplicate can save the character from leaving play. Player B is not trying to cancel sacrifice. He is trying to save a character from leaving play with Interrupt.
In case that controller and owner is the same person it's easy because you either sacrifice or not sacrifice. But in case that duplicate is controlled by owner and original character controlled by opponent... what if f.e. that Warded character would be Bran. Player A plays Ward on Bran, Bran has a duplicate on him which is controlled by player B. Player A wants to sacrifice Bran to cancel some Event played by player B. Can player B discard a duplicate to prevent a sacrifice of Bran? And thus preventing Bran's ability.
Mar 20 2017 08:02 AM by mplain
This does not answer my question at all, your scenario doesn't even use the word "cancel"
As said above, the RRG definition of Sacrifice says that a sacrificed card cannot be saved.
Triggering a duplicate cannot be cancelled, but nobody's trying to cancel anything in your scenario.
"Cancel" is a special game term that refers to card effects that cancel the initiation of abilities (and these cards use the word "cancel" in their text, e.g. The Hand's Judgment, Treachery).
Mar 20 2017 07:48 AM by wordsmith
Player A gets control (with Ward) of a character with a duplicate on it (f.e.Arya) from player B. And then player A plays Fallen From Favor to sacrifice that exact character (Arya). Can player B use the duplicate to save it? Duplicate is still controlled by player B.
To complete this example, player B could play Confiscation -so lower initiative- as trying to get rid of that Ward.
Mar 20 2017 07:18 AM by mplain
What is trying to cancel what in the proposed situation?
Mar 20 2017 05:00 AM by wordsmith
Yes I understand, but there's also "Cannot be canceled" on the opposite argument.
Mar 19 2017 10:30 PM by theamazingmrg
'Cannot' is absolute and takes precedence over anything else. So cannot be saved overrules the normal duplicate rules.
Mar 19 2017 09:30 PM by wordsmith
Yes and Rules Reference also state:
A duplicate grants its controller the following triggered game ability: “Interrupt: When the overlapping unique card would leave play, discard this duplicate to save that card. (Cannot be canceled.)”
Mar 19 2017 09:06 PM by Palpa
From the rules reference: "A sacrificed card cannot be saved"
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