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146 replies to this topic

#1
cockbongo

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Dear FFG

Why oh why oh why did you print Harrenhal (AH)?

Every game I've played with it or against it has simply turned into a shambling cancelfest neither player has enjoyed. Sure, initially the utility seems nice but when both players are sitting with a handful of cards locked in a stalemate of inactivity how can that be said to be improving the game experience?

"Have an answer for it" I hear you cry. Always. Usually you're right: most cards that have been deemed OPRESTRICT etc have eventually had their strength come out in the wash and only found their place in particular decks, within particular contexts. Now you have created neutral ubiquitous cancel, you have fundamentally changed the game for the worse.

I honestly didn't think it would be that bad. It didn't sound too bad initially (well, not to me anyway). Having now spent some time with it: well, no. Deal with this. Harrenhal on a Valar turn makes a complete mockery of the already tenuous and overcomplicated ruleset - would *you* like to try and explain those particular interactions and timings to a brand new player? Would you expect them to be enthused to pick up the game after you did?

I'm not one for over analysis (really, I'm not) but I know one thing. For me, this one card has changed the game detrimentally. If this is the direction you want to go from now on FFG, I'm not 100% sure I can come with you.

Yours
Disgusted
Tunbridge Wells

PS: Each to their own, of course.
  • wrzos, icarus911, Alaka and 3 others like this

#2
Bambi

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Yay another post about people moaning about one card or another (no offence).

 

Personally Rivers, TRV, Harrenhal don't bother me at all. I enjoy the challenge of playing against them or with them.


  • erocklawell likes this

#3
cockbongo

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*
POPULAR

Haha, oh it's a moan alright. I allow myself one a year.

In other news, I went for my train to work this morning but it had been cancelled by Harrenhal.
  • WWDrakey, Kennon, Ratatoskr and 26 others like this

#4
Bambi

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Was he a gentlemen with a Spanish background who was fed up with the moaning about cards in the AGOT community and threw himself in front of a train in protest?


  • Toqtamish and 14Shirt like this

#5
cockbongo

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That's the fella. Seemed a bit excessive I thought :)

Apologies for the morning rant, everyone: it was early and I was letting off steam. I do still fundamentally agree with everything above, however, even if I'm sure it's all been said before.
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#6
Bambi

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;)



#7
Asklepios

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I like Harrenhal. At least, I like it at the moment, and I may well be sharing your complaints after a few months of seeing it in play.

 

What I like about it is that it is a card that makes the game more skill-based, and less deck-building based. While I love deckbuilding as much as anybody, I also feel that if AGOT LCG has a flaw, its that it is weighted too much towards the deckbuilding, and not enough towards skill in play. Any card that shifts the balance the other way is a good thing in my book.


  • AronKazay likes this

#8
Bambi

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I would completely disagree with the skill vs deckbuilding and say it's undoubtedly the most skill orientated card game I've played and most decks almost build themselves with the strength of cards available. 


  • darkbladecb likes this

#9
Reclusive

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Wait till the the Wardens for some more neutral auto includes. Lovely lovely stuff.



#10
uBaHoB

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We have gentlemen agreement in our meta to not play it until the next FAQ. We all like it to much.


  • cockbongo likes this

#11
AronKazay

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I played a small tournament on Saturday, and all of my opponents were running at least a copy of it, and I had two. It wasn't a cancelfest! I quite enjoy this card, as in most builds it replaced some cancel events instead of reinforcing them.

 

My only problem is that it's a neutral auto-include, which for me always takes away from the flavor of the game. But hey, it's Harrenhal, a place of myths, so why not?


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#12
14Shirt

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I haven't played with or against it yet. What are you mainly finding so problematic, CB? The complication? The auto-inclusiveness? The power level? Doesn't the cost of killing a character somewhat balance it? I ask these all in seriousness.



#13
Reclusive

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Sure, you can kill your hungry mob,arya,condon oh wait


  • zordren likes this

#14
uBaHoB

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You missed Refugees, Maester Aemon (twice with Brave companions) and in the end Call of the 3 eyed crow and retreat the character. Canceling key 3 effects is way more powerfull than the few moneylenders and 2 power you give.



#15
JCWamma

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You missed Refugees, Maester Aemon (twice with Brave companions) and in the end Call of the 3 eyed crow and retreat the character. Canceling key 3 effects is way more powerfull than the few moneylenders and 2 power you give.

 

Just in case you're not aware, you can't save from paying a cost, so you can kill off your Maester Aemon but unless you have another trick (like Brave Companions or Call) then you're only killing him off that one time.



#16
cockbongo

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Just in case you're not aware, you can't save from paying a cost, so you can kill off your Maester Aemon but unless you have another trick (like Brave Companions or Call) then you're only killing him off that one time.

 

I thought he meant that initially - but I think he means he can be killed again because he can be "saved" by The Brave Companions and put back into play next round.



#17
cockbongo

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I haven't played with or against it yet. What are you mainly finding so problematic, CB? The complication? The auto-inclusiveness? The power level? Doesn't the cost of killing a character somewhat balance it? I ask these all in seriousness.

 

Ok, i'm in danger of going off on another rant, but here's my basic argument (now i've woken up a bit). Harrenhal changes the game entirely when it's out. I've obviously no problem with the concept of cancel - single event cancels are available using up valuable deck space, and everything else that could be considered reusable cancel still has to kneel to trigger (The Iron Throne, Meereen Tourney Grounds, Alannys Greyjoy etc). It is, and should be, a rare effect so that the game flows properly from one action and response to another without being regularly brought to a halt or a stalemate.

 

What Harrenhal does is give every player and every deck the ability to create a situation where your opponent is being deterred from playing any cards at all. Yes there's a cost to using it, but it's a cost that's easily paid in most decks. When two Harrenhals are on the table it's initially very amusing but you quickly realise that you're not playing the same AGoT anymore. As I mentioned above, resolving a Valar last night with both players using Harrenhal just felt *wrong* and almost seems to be deisgned to make a mockery of the timing rules.

 

If a shake up of the game is what FFG want, then they've got it alright. Mind you, I am known to overreact.



#18
uBaHoB

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Just in case you're not aware, you can't save from paying a cost, so you can kill off your Maester Aemon but unless you have another trick (like Brave Companions or Call) then you're only killing him off that one time.

 

Ohhh. Because when he saves him self he doesn't pay the price for Harenhall. Good to know. I may have cheated one or 2 times than since I have the chapter. Luckily I played only one day with it.



#19
Bambi

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When you say Valar Morghulis what do you mean? You can't cancel Valar with Harrenhal...



#20
cockbongo

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When you say Valar Morghulis what do you mean? You can't cancel Valar with Harrenhal...

 

No, but you can cancel saves before everything dies. And if someone tries to cancel your cancel of a save, you can cancel their cancel of your cancel...