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Sun Tzu and The Art of Warhammer Conquest

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#21
MotoBuzzsawMF

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In reading your "on Initiative = attack" and "Off initiative = defense" ideas...how do you account for the fact that if only one player has a Warlord in a certain battle then that player has initiative regardless of whoever has the initiative token? 

 

Do you still consider yourself on the defense because you're assuming their Warlord will go to the same planet as your Warlord? Are you assuming that your Warlord will NOT go to planet 1 on your "defender" turn because you wouldn't have initiative? 

 

As Tau I've gotten some great attacks off "first" on my off-initiative turns by committed Commander Shadowsun to planet 1 when my opponent sent their Warlord elsewhere. Note, I usually react and attach a Shadowsun's Stealth Cadre to one of my Tau units and since I'm the only Warlord there and I win initiative for the First Planet battle, I'll swing with the newly beefed up Kroot Squad (or what have you) for a nice strength 5 attack. It gets even better if you have ranged combat tricks like putting a SSC on StingWings!

 

I go into every command struggle with the idea that my opponent will meet me there with his warlord. lol. That way, I am never surprised.



#22
Etaywah

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The terrain of this LCG is a fixed choice and rarely mentioned, even though they will be with us for the whole lifetime of the LCG. This to me was a mistake by the designers. For me, I'd have preferred if they had empowered more customisation where each opponent brings 4 different planets, combine them unseen, shuffle them, place 7 of them in a row as current with the 8th set aside unknown. This would have allowed for more planets in future packs...

 

 

When I first saw the planet lay-out for this game I thought the same thing. How cool would it be to be able to bring your own 5 planets to the game and mix them with the opponent's planets, unseen, and reveal them at the beginning of the game? Obviously there are certain planets that are better "prizes" for each faction. 

 

The two negatives to this situation are:

 

1) When two player pick multiples of the same planet. There are various ways to get away from this issue, but typically they would be somewhat complicated. The other side of it could be "Who cares if there are two of the same planets."

 

2) The other problem is the planets must mathematically be able to contain enough resource icons (and diversity of icons) to ensure that a game can be won in the first 3-5 planets. A 7-planet game is awesome, but in a tournament setting it would cause a lot of weird situations where, just out of luck, the players would have a bunch of greens and few reds, visa versa, etc etc.

 

Despite these two issues, I still think the concept would be very cool to bring your own planets to the match.



#23
Vermillionde

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B) The other problem is the planets must mathematically be able to contain enough resource icons (and diversity of icons) to ensure that a game can be won in the first 3-5 planets. A 7-planet game is awesome, but in a tournament setting it would cause a lot of weird situations where, just out of luck, the players would have a bunch of greens and few reds, visa versa, etc etc.

 

The alternative here is that you could have some restrictions on what type of planets or what resource balance players could bring. This would create an interesting dynamic where if players have to have at least 2 icons of each type showing then it limits what other planets they could pick. For instance if they really want to bring two planets that have a great ability for them/resources they need but only show one planet icon each then it changes what other planets they need to bring. 



#24
Kingsley

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I suspect that the big box expansions may contain extra planet cards.



#25
VonWibble

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I'd be amazed if they didn't!

But the question to ask is if they would replace the planet cards (like the story deck in Cthulu) or add to them to make a larger deck. If its the latter, tournament rules would have to clearly state which planets are being used, and entering most events would require you to own everything containing them.

#26
sparrowhawk

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I'm pleased you brought this up, Etaywah.

Yes, Kingsley, I expect you are right, they will have new planets in big boxes and a rules leaflet that says choose 7 from 10+X. But that only creates even more variance in the game.

It would be cool if you can strategise and try to minimise this huge luck variance. If playing Chaos, I'd love to see the "show and tell" planet. I'll take your Land Raider and trump it with my Helldrake!

Maybe it's broken if players had some control over planets. But if they are going to add planets in the big box expansions, this means changing the rules which are currently 7 from 10. So if they are going to have a rules leaflet for new rules (and keywords), why not go the whole hog and create some customisation?

It just seems such a shame to not customise this aspect like with the Plot cards in Thrones, one of the best aspects of that game.

Here's the high skill approach...

Each player brings a deck of 7 planet cards with them, holding all in hand for planet placement.
X and Y roll for initiative. X starts with initiative.
Y puts 1 of his planets as First Planet face up.
X puts 1 of his planets as #2 face up not matching others face up.
Y puts 1 of his planets as #3 face up not matching others face up.
X puts 1 of his planets as #4 face up not matching others face up.
Y puts 1 of his planets as #5 face up not matching others face up.
X puts 1 of his planets as #6 face DOWN not matching others face up.
Y puts TWO of his planets as #7 face DOWN not matching others face up.
When it comes to revealing #7, use the top face down planet if it does not match #6 else the other.

In this way, you try to spread icons to make it as hard as possible for your opponent when he has initiative in First Planet Battles. You also mitigate the fact that X has initiative on 4 First Planet Battles including the key first one when kit is sparse and the key last one which wins the game.

It's like the "play or draw" rule in Tournament Magic. That, like the mulligan, was never in original rules. But because tournaments have to minimise luck, the rule was created as an equaliser for going first.

You can see from my suggestion that I'm really into my strategy games. I concede that this sort of strategic planning is not to everyone's liking. But it would make tournaments more skilful.

Just a silly idea...

#27
Dre2Dee2

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Should be something like a planet draft where both players draft from X planets, then shuffle them up and deal them out to start the game. Your welcome FFG :lol:



#28
MotoBuzzsawMF

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I believe in tournament play, each person must have a planet deck. So further down the line when there are more planets, you can customize your planet deck to best suit your strategy. I am pretty happy with that. 



#29
Etaywah

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I guess it would be simple if double-planets didn't matter and the only planet-building restriction is "must have 1 of each resource and at least 2 resources with 3 or more in your planet decks"

 

I'm not sure it would work based on those very simple metrics but its a start. High-cost armies would all flock to the "less units than the opponent" and the "Put a unit into play" planets and the control decks would go for the resource steal and card discard planets.



#30
HoopJones

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In reading your "on Initiative = attack" and "Off initiative = defense" ideas...how do you account for the fact that if only one player has a Warlord in a certain battle then that player has initiative regardless of whoever has the initiative token?

Do you still consider yourself on the defense because you're assuming their Warlord will go to the same planet as your Warlord? Are you assuming that your Warlord will NOT go to planet 1 on your "defender" turn because you wouldn't have initiative?

As Tau I've gotten some great attacks off "first" on my off-initiative turns by committed Commander Shadowsun to planet 1 when my opponent sent their Warlord elsewhere. Note, I usually react and attach a Shadowsun's Stealth Cadre to one of my Tau units and since I'm the only Warlord there and I win initiative for the First Planet battle, I'll swing with the newly beefed up Kroot Squad (or what have you) for a nice strength 5 attack. It gets even better if you have ranged combat tricks like putting a SSC on StingWings!


So...This dilemma is army and planet centric. It is quite possible that planet 1 is crap and gives little benefit..so you may not even want to go there. I like to snipe command units on t1.

All of this is "starting hand" centric though.

#31
sparrowhawk

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In reading your "on Initiative = attack" and "Off initiative = defense" ideas...how do you account for the fact that if only one player has a Warlord in a certain battle then that player has initiative regardless of whoever has the initiative token?

Do you still consider yourself on the defense because you're assuming their Warlord will go to the same planet as your Warlord? Are you assuming that your Warlord will NOT go to planet 1 on your "defender" turn because you wouldn't have initiative?


I haven't ignored your questions, sir. It's just a very complicated answer that deserves to be the next article in this thread. But here is the preview gist anyway.

In Go, there exists the concepts of "sente" (aggressive, dictating the game), "gote" (defensive, reacting to opponent's threats) and "ko threats" (a stratagem by which, while gote, you establish some counter threat that exceeds the opponent's threat, thereby seizing sente). It's a subtle, skilful, ancient game and there are parallels to Conquest's design.

When you have initiative, you have sente for battles whilst your opponent has gote in battles. However, because deploying later allows trumping in the command struggle, when you have initiative you have taken gote in the economic development game whilst your opponent has sente.

Now the opponent's warlord can always interfere and switch the advantage at one planet if not contested by the opposing warlord, both in command struggle and initiative. Although there is greater inherent risk in committing to attempt to reverse initiative in battles than in reversing command struggle outcomes.

However, it is easier to wrest sente during deployment by stalling (promotion, raid, promise of glory, detonate flamer, hellhound eats cultist, spend resources into comm-link or tormentor to stall, use laboratory), usually with cheaper cards, than it is to wrest sente in battles (via ranged and brutal) when your opponent has initiative.

In many ways, deployment is a classic example of "zugzwang" in Chess and other games where you just want to pass so that you can react to opponent's placements or not telegraph intentions. Cards like Coreworld Gate empower you to make cheap feints of interest with a 2 icon Guardian to hopefully force the opponent to overcommit to a planet then recall to cheaply change focus or to undo the outmanoeuvring of the enemy's later placement. Dark Eldar have an inherent advantage, the fear of Raid, which forces opponents to eschew stalling and overcommit spend early. A new Eldar warlord that read "action: ready or exhaust this warlord (limit 1 per phase)" may be too strong, such is the value of zugzwang during deployment. So the advantage of deploying second should not be undervalued, even though it can be easily wrested away from you with canny card/action sequencing.

Thus whilst there is an elegant alternating symmetry in the game design, one player having the edge in battles and the other the edge in economic development, then next turn switching edges, with any uncontested warlord interference muddying this in both cases, the fact that deployment stalling is easier to achieve than reversal of initiative advantage in battle (and the risks involved in warlord forced retreat if confronted by opposing warlord) has led me to conclude that having initiative is a greater edge in battle than deploying second as an advantage in the command struggle. Hence my "on-initiative aggression" and "off-initiative defence" over-simplification.

The truth, as you highlight, is a lot more complicated but the rule of thumb remains true. The first article was long enough already. I plan to cover this topic in the next instalment when I find time but, meantime, please do not think I have ducked your questions. It's just that answering it requires deeper analysis of this game where we are all still neophytes, learning its subtleties.

Let's not forget every warlord presence has an opportunity cost of the benefits of committing to an alternate planet. To end up facing your opponent's warlord and end up losing the battle or command struggle anyway has paid a significant opportunity cost, let alone damage inflicted on the warlord before he flees.

There is a definite ebb and flow to the game which, whilst you can reverse in localised planets with unopposed warlord interference, creates an intriguing constant reversal of advantages. Constantly making the most of your advantages while minimising the benefits of your opponent's advantages should show the path to victory.
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#32
HoopJones

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...what he said.

#33
Darikgrey

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...Enlightenment...

Well said! Your response makes me pleased in that A: you used the term "Rule of Thumb" (because that's my book!) and B: It makes me want to try out a game of "Go" as I've never played it before. I think the points you raise about deploying second being a benefit for resource struggles are huge in their implications and something I had not yet considered. I also had not considered the ways to EFFECTIVELY pass during Deployment. In our initial few games, we played that if a player passed once during deployment they would then get a chance to start deploying again if their opponent did NOT pass. Further review of the rules showed this to be incorrect and each game since we have lamented not being able to pass during Deployment. Your suggestions of options or ACTIONS to take when it is a player's deployment turn show an ENTIRELY NEW LEVEL of subtlety in Conquest and make me all the more excited to play it in tournaments.

 

Thank you! 



#34
Dre2Dee2

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I haven't ignored your questions, sir. It's just a very complicated answer that deserves to be the next article in this thread. But here is the preview gist anyway.
 

 

Yeah, opportunity cost of warlord placement is HUGE. I always try and lure my opponent away from the first planet if I can, ESPECIALLY if I don't have initiative. If you can get your Warlord at 1 and gain battle initiative off turn, it can be pretty nuts how many planets you can sweep up. Those sweet battle abilities are always calling you away though... damn you wild card planet! :lol:

 

Also 40k has future chess called Regicide... do they Tau have future Go? Is it called "Hover" or something :lol:



#35
BahnCalamari

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This is a pretty old post now but I want to point out how good it is.

 

 

Depending on the success of its aim to provoke a conversation, I will then add new chapters to this thread when the current topic seems to have run dry of comment.

 

Another chapter! Another chapter!


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#36
Sokhar

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Thanks for bumping it up. I just came to conquest in the last couple of months and never saw it. Good stuff!





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