27 replies to this topic

[PBrennan]

The Dealing Damage process is an integral part of the game. This tutorial is aimed at aiding the understanding of its timing points for interrupts and reactions, and its process resolution end point.

 

The timeline below assumes that dealing damage is being initiated by an attack. If it's been initiated otherwise (eg by an event), ignore the attack references.

 

Each Interrupt and Reaction Window lists examples of the triggering conditions that can be triggered in its window.

 

Interrupt Window: (when: attacks, declared as an attacker, exhausts)

Declare attacker

Reaction Window: (after: declared as an attacker, exhausts)

 

Interrupt Window: (when: declared as a defender, declares an attack)

Declare defender

Reaction Window: (after: declared as a defender, declares an attack)

 

Interrupt Window: (when: damage is assigned/assigns damage)

Step 1: Assign damage

Reaction Window: (after: damage is assigned/assigns damage)

 

Interrupt Window: (when: shield card is used)

Step 2: Shields

Reaction Window: (after: shield card is used)

 

Interrupt Damage Window: (when: is damaged/damages, takes damage)

Interrupt Destruction Window: (when: is destroyed/destroys, leaves play)

Step 3: Take damage

Resolution EndPoint: The Dealing Damage and Attack processes are considered resolved.

Reaction Window: (after: is damaged/damages, takes damage, is destroyed/destroys, leaves play, resolves its attack)

 

All reactions in the same window can be done in any order. For example, in the last action window, you may do:

After a unit is destroyed, ...

After a unit resolves an attack, ...

After a unit leaves play, ...

After a unit is destroyed, ... (a different one)

etc

 

This is why there are two separate interrupt windows before Step 3. The game allows interrupts to being damaged to happen first, which usually prevents some of that damage and therefore prevent a unit's destruction. If there was just the one interrupt window, you'd otherwise be allowed to initiate advantageous interrupts to a unit being destroyed, and then prevent it being destroyed. This double interrupt window is the same in Star Wars btw, for those who play that.

 

If a unit is destroyed, it leaves play as part of step 3, before the process resolution endpoint. A unit's destruction cannot be reacted to before Step 3 finishes however - Step 3 is considered atomic (as are each of the other steps), and reactions cannot be triggered until Step 3's reaction window opens.

 

Note that any event card that initiates the dealing damage process (if that's all it does, eg Tzeentch's Firestorm) will be placed on its owner's discard pile at the resolution endpoint.

 

Many interrupt and reactions have the clause "by an attack" in its triggering condition. These will only trigger if the dealing damage process is initiated by a unit performing an attack sequence. They will not trigger for instance by initiating a card effect that deals damage while a unit is attacking (for example, Area Effect or an action).

 

If a unit is using Area Effect, then the steps of Declare Defender and Resolve Attack (consisting of Step 1, Step 2 and Step 3 of the Dealing Damage Process) do not happen for this attack. After declaring your attack and completing its reaction window, you then (instead of doing the said steps) resolve the Area Effect ability, which performs the three steps of the Dealing Damage process to each affected unit - damage to each affected unit is assigned simultaneously, 1 shield card may be played against each unit, then all remaining damage is taken simultaneously. After this Step 3 has completed, the resolution endpoint is reached and the attack is considered resolved. Note that any damage dealt by Area Effect is NOT considered to be damage by an attack - it is damage dealt by a card effect (per the RRG Area Effect section). Because it happens during an attack however, it is considered to be dealt "while attacking". This is a subtle but important distinction.

 

I hope this helps. If you have any questions that will help me clarify the process further, please ask.

[xraysteve]

When using the AOE ability on cards that have such, does that declare it as an attacker or is it just using a card ability?

 

When Shielding against AOE and other damage dealt to multiple units at once, each unit dealt damage gets an opportunity to shield, not just one shield card for a unit and the rest take the full amount of damage?

(Clarifying this rule: When a unit is attacked or dealt damage by an effect its controller may discard one card with one or more printed shield icons from his hand to prevent an amount of damage up to the number of shield icons on the discarded card.)

[Toqtamish]

When using the AOE ability on cards that have such, does that declare it as an attacker or is it just using a card ability?

 

When Shielding against AOE and other damage dealt to multiple units at once, each unit dealt damage gets an opportunity to shield, not just one shield card for a unit and the rest take the full amount of damage?

(Clarifying this rule: When a unit is attacked or dealt damage by an effect its controller may discard one card with one or more printed shield icons from his hand to prevent an amount of damage up to the number of shield icons on the discarded card.)

 

AoE still considered to be while the units is attacking, the damage comes from a card effect. This is covered in the RRG on page 3, Area Effect (X)

 

This damage is considered to be dealt by a card
effect. It is not considered to be dealt by the
attacker’s attack, but it is being dealt while the unit
with Area Effect is attacking. After the Area Effect
ability has resolved, the attack is over.

 

You can shield every unit that is damaged.

 

Shields: For each unit that has been assigned
damage, its controller may discard 1 shield card
from his hand

 

RRG page 6, Dealing Damage

[Boreas]

This double interrupt window is the same in Star Wars btw, for those who play that.

 

But in Star Wars, there is triple interrupt window!

 

Interrupt Damage Window: (when: is damaged/damages, takes damage)

Interrupt Destruction Window: (when: would be destroyed)

Interrupt Destruction Window: (when: is destroyed/destroys, leaves play)

 

 

Here's Nate's full answer;

“Would be destroyed” interrupts have priority over “is destroyed” interrupts. In other words, “the would be destroyed” timing of Old Ben’s Spirit happens before the “is destroyed” timing of Obi Wan. So that, if you use Old Ben’s Spirit to prevent him from being destroyed, you never get to the point where the “is destroyed” trigger occurs.

[PBrennan]

The Star Wars ruling will be the same for this game, but there's no "would be destroyed" effects yet so I didn't want to pre-complicate it. I'll update the tutorial when it becomes relevant for this game.

[KennedyHawk]

This thread is a great resource. Thanks!

[in5tinctive]

I would like to add a question to this thread to further clarify timings. All card text is reproduced below.

 

Situation: Zarathur’s Flamers (ZF) and Chaos Fanatics (CF) + Mark of Chaos (MoC) versus Straken’s Command Squad (SCS) with 1 damage token.

 

Question: is the following timing sequence accurate, particularly with respect to when cards actually reach the discard pile, and the reaction windows for Shrine of Warpflame (SoW) and Murder Cogitator (MC)?

 

Rationale: the reaction window for SoW must wait for the ability that destroyed the enemy unit to fully resolve before it opens? Thus it must wait for CF and MoC to actually reach the discard pile, rather than open immediately when SCS reaches its discard pile?

 

01 ZF action: sacrifices itself to deal 2 damage to own unit (CF+MoC)

ZF chooses target - CF

Resolve ZF's cost

02 * ZF initiates sacrifice

03 * ZF is sacrificed and is placed on discard pile.

04 * * MC reaction (to ZF leaving play), revealing top card of deck etc

Resolve ZF's effect

05 * Start dealing damage process (for the dealing of 2 damage to CF)

06 * * Assign / shield ...

07 * * Initiate the taking of 2 damage and destruction of CF

08 * * * MoC interrupts CF's destruction: destroys SCS

09 * * * * SCS initiates being destroyed

10 * * * * * SCS interrupt: Guardsman token comes into play

11 * * * * SCS is destroyed; reaches discard pile

12 * * * * * SoW reaction: retrieves topmost Tzeentch card.

13 * End dealing damage process for CF: CF + MoC are destroyed and placed in discard pile (in order of my choosing)

14 * * MC reaction (to CF leaving play), revealing top card of deck etc

 

SCS: Straken’s Command Squad (2/2)

Interrupt: When this unit leaves play, put a Guardsman token into play at the same planet.

 

SoW: Shrine of Warpflame

Reaction: When an enemy unit is destroyed, exhaust this support to return the topmost Tzeentch card from the discard pile to your hand.

 

MC: Murder Cogitator

Reaction: After a Cultist or Daemon unit you control leaves play, exhaust this support to reveal the top card of your deck. If that card is a Chaos unit, add it to your hand.

 

ZF: Zarathur’s Flamers (2/2) (Daemon, Tzeentch)

Action: Sacrifice this unit to deal 2 damage to target non-warlord unit at the same planet.

 

MoC: Mark of Chaos

Interrupt: When attached unit leaves play, deal 1 damage to each enemy unit at the planet.

 

CF: Chaos Fanatics (1/2) (Cultist, Tzeentch)

[PBrennan]

I've edited the above sequence a bit to reflect that SCS is destroyed (and placed on its discard pile) at the completion of the dealing damage process that's initiated by the Mark of Chaos interrupt. As such SoW's reaction triggers in the reaction window to the completion of that dealing damage process ... and this is all one big nest (within the interrupt window to the sacrifice of CG and MoC). This nested window must close before that sacrifice continues on to its resolution and those cards leave play.

 

It's a tricky example though, hope I have it right.

[in5tinctive]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the edits to my example.

 

In my original post, Zarathur's Flamers sacrifice themselves to kill their own Chaos Fanatics in order to trigger Mark of Chaos, killing Straken's Command Squad (and perhaps other units not mentioned in the example).

 

I chose this example to highlight the nested interrupts, the question of when the Shrine of Warpflame reaction window actually opens, and when units actually reach the discard pile (for Shrine of Warpflame and any other effects).

 

Maybe it will be clearer if I just ask specific questions. In the example as I just described it:

- do ZF, CF, and MoC reach the discard pile simultaneously?

- if not, in what order and with what simultaneity do they reach the discard pile?

- which if any of ZF, CF, and MoC are on the discard pile when SoW triggers?

[PBrennan]

Ok, that wasn't clear per the text or the nesting (as it had some errors) so I was trying to reflect what I thought your intention was. Given the follow-up, I've taken another crack at it (still doing the editing in the above post in the hope that we get it right there, and then we hide all this followup stuff to keep the thread as short as possible). Hopefully the answers to your questions are now clear via the edited nesting sequence. If not, let us know. The answer doesn't change that much ... the enemy unit is still leaving play before the dealing damage process to CF completes, and therefore SoW triggers before CF and MoC hit the discard pile. ZF is on the pile when SoW triggers because it left play during Step 4 of the ability initiation process (being the payment of costs), and before Step 6 (effect resolution) commences.

[in5tinctive]

Thanks for the response, I should have explained my original post more clearly. I agree we can hide all this when it's clear, great idea.

 

This is very interesting! Does this mean there is a Murder Cogitator reaction window when Zarathur's Flamers leaves play but before the damage is dealt from the sacrifice? It looks like there should be, since Shrine of Warpflame's window opens immediately when the enemy unit hits the discard pile.

 

This is extremely illuminating! The game has wheels within wheels...

[PBrennan]

Yes, it does. I've added that in.

[in5tinctive]

Thank you for the response!

 

I am trying to understand how this is related to the Tzeentch's Firestorm discussion:

http://www.cardgamed...-dire-mutation/

 

The designer says:

Placing the event on the discard pile marks the completion of the event’s resolution. This should happen before any Reactions to that resolution can occur. - Nate French

 

So let's go through how that plays out. Tzeentch's Firestorm is an event, its ability deals damage. To initiate TF's ability, we go thru the 6 step Initiate Ability (RRG pg 8) process:

 

Step 1: Check TF is eligible for initiation

Step 2: Determine cost of TF

Initiate ability

Step 3: Modify cost of TF

Step 4: Pay cost of TF

Step 5: Choose TF's target, a non-warlord unit.

Step 6: Resolve the ability's effect. This starts the dealing damage process (assign, shield, take). Interrupts/reactions can occur throughout this process, but reactions to the final step (taking damage) are considered to occur after the dealing damage process concludes. When the dealing damage process concludes, TF's ability is considered resolved and TF is placed on the owner's discard pile.

 

The reaction window now opens to TF's resolution, which may include reactions to the end of the dealing damage process and/or the resolution of the ability. An example is Shrine of Warpflame, if a unit was destroyed, which could now return TF to your hand as it's on the discard pile.

 

This is not the same order as in the outline above. Is it a special property of events that reactions must "wait", whereas for abilities they may fire when ready? Suppose in the scenario, I killed my own Chaos Fanatics with Tzeentch's Firestorm and everything else (Mark of Chaos, etc) remained the same. Judging from the quoted text, it appears the outline might be quite different?

 

I apologize if this seems pedantic. I really like the game and want to understand the timing!

[PBrennan]

Every triggered ability (be it on a unit, event, whatever) follows that 6 step ability initiation process.

 

If an event (such as Tzeentch's Firestorm) deals damage and destroys Chaos Fanatics (instead of Zarathur's Flamers), then the event is placed on the discard pile at the completion of the event's resolution, which is simultaneous with the completion of the dealing damage process it launched. This is at point 13 above, so TF, CF, and MoC would all hit the discard pile simultaneously (in the order of your choosing).

 

Note that your example is different from the one presented in other thread. Here, you're relying on the MoC interrupt to kill off the unit, which means the enemy unit (SCS) dies before this point 13 happens, and that's why Shrine of Warpflame can't retrieve TF in your example. It's not because of any difference between handling of reactions between different types of cards. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

In the other thread, TF is killing off the enemy unit instead and it dies at point 13. Therefore the Shrine of Warpflame reaction happens (in this instance) in point 14, and is able to retrieve TF.

 

Hope this makes sense, I've been a little rushed getting this out ...

[in5tinctive]

I think I've got it now, thanks. This has been very helpful. Much appreciated.

[Minute]

How do non Reaction or Interrupt effects work with the Dealing damage process?

 

Heavy Marker Drone:  Double damage dealt to attached unit.

 

Is this done at step 1?  RRG reference assigning the damage dealt in step 1.

 

Or is this done after step 3 when the dealing damage process has been resolved and damage has been dealt?

 

Or in other words, does "damage dealt" refer to the actual damage taken by the unit or does it refer to an intermediate step like "damage assigned" does.

[ktom]

Remember that the three steps are the "deal damage" process. This means that the "damage dealt" is the amount of damage that needs to go through the 3-step process (assign, shield, place) from start to finish. A continuous effect (like the Heavy Marker Drone) that modifies the "damage dealt" would be applied when determining the amount of damage that needs to be assigned in the first place.

 

For example, when a unit attacks, you look at the unit's ATK power to determine the damage that needs to be dealt, and then start the "deal damage" process by assigning that much damage. With a doubling effect like Heavy Marker Drone, that changes slightly to looking at the unit's attack power to determine the damage that needs to be dealt, double it, and then start the "deal damage" process by assigning that much damage.

[Minute]

Remember that the three steps are the "deal damage" process. This means that the "damage dealt" is the amount of damage that needs to go through the 3-step process (assign, shield, place) from start to finish. A continuous effect (like the Heavy Marker Drone) that modifies the "damage dealt" would be applied when determining the amount of damage that needs to be assigned in the first place.

 

For example, when a unit attacks, you look at the unit's ATK power to determine the damage that needs to be dealt, and then start the "deal damage" process by assigning that much damage. With a doubling effect like Heavy Marker Drone, that changes slightly to looking at the unit's attack power to determine the damage that needs to be dealt, double it, and then start the "deal damage" process by assigning that much damage.

I guess my confusion comes in because "dealt" is the past tense of "deal" and "dealing" implies that something is going on right now.  So how can I have "dealt damage" while I'm still in the process of dealing it?  I would expect the damage dealt to be the amount of damage that comes out the other side of the dealing damage process.

 

"I've dealt you 3 damage so now it's time to deal you 3 damage" seems very very counter-intuitive.

 

This is something I'd recommend for a FAQ/Errata as "dealt damage" probably needs to be more well defined (like assigned damage is well defined right now).

 

Based on the above ruling, does flying or heavy marker drone kick in first?

[ktom]

Based on the above ruling, does flying or heavy marker drone kick in first?

 

Speaking of which, take a look at the description of Flying in the RRG. It says to "halve the damage that is dealt before it is assigned." So it's right there in the RRG that damage is "dealt" before the 3-step process that actually gets the tokens on the card begins.

 

As for the question, the two effects, doubling and halving, are applied at the same time - essentially canceling each other out.

[Koz]

So is that official then?  Heavy Marker Drone doubles the damage immediately when the attack is declared?  Not after shielding?

 

Example: Marksman with an Ion Rifle attacks a unit with a Heavy Marker Drone attached to it.  Which is correct:

 

1.) Marksman attacks with 4 ATK and Heavy Marker Drone doubles this to 8 damage before shielding.  Attacked unit plays a 2 shield card and receives 6 damage.

 

2.) Marksman attacks and 4 damage is assigned before shielding.  Attacked unit plays a 2 shield card and receives 2 damage which Heavy Marker Drone doubles to 4 damage.