38 replies to this topic

[Kertanos]

Ragnar

Reaction: After your warlord commits to a planet with an enemy warlord, deal 2 damage to a target enemy unit at that planet.

 

Blackmane's Hunt

Reaction: After your warlord commits to a planet, commit your warlord to an adjacent planet.

 

Foresight

Reaction: After your warlord commits to a planet, commit it to a different planet.

 

Situation :

Ragnar commit to planet 1, Eldorath commit to planet 2.

Ragnar plays Blackmane's Hunt to recommit to planet 2.

 

The question is, can the Eldorath player trigger Foresight's reaction, or is he forced to react to the "recommitment" of Ragnar first, thus taking the 2 damage from Ragnar.

 

Some players from my meta suggested that all the reaction from Ragnar's commitment must be done before Eldorath's.

Their argument is this part from Rules References :

Nested Ability Sequences
Abilities generally resolve in a “first in, first out” manner. For instance, if a player has two reaction
abilities he wishes to trigger in reaction to a single triggering condition, the first reaction is triggered and resolved in its entirety, and then the second reaction is triggered and resolved.

• Interrupt and reaction effects may, however, cause new conditions that can initiate a subsequent series of interrupt and reaction abilities. Such abilities will nest on top of one another, creating a sequence of abilities, and these sequences need to be resolved in a “last in, first out” manner.

When such a sequence of abilities occurs, players should keep triggering abilities until the chain of
sequences runs dry (i.e. there are no interrupts or reactions to the resolution of all abilities from the
last ability triggered in the sequence).

• The most recently initiated nested ability sequence is always completely resolved before any former sequence of abilities is resolved.

[Reznor]

I do have one small question about this topic. Let's say Ragnar commits to planet 1 and Eldorath to planet 2. Eldorath has initative and pass his reaction window. Then Ragnar on his reaction oportunity choose to play his famous event and move to Eldorath planets. This creates a nested window on planet 2 that needs to be closed before ending all reactions on planet 1. But my question is about this new nested reaction window opened in planet 2. Who has initiative meaning who gets to play the first reaction on this new window and why?

[ktom]

The player with initiative will have the first reaction in each nested window.

 

It's actually one of the sore points in the nesting system: the player with initiative could potentially trigger a bunch of reactions in a row -- before his opponent can trigger anything -- by making sure that each reaction is a nested reaction to the one before it.

[PBrennan]

A lot of the thread prior to this post has been hidden, as the increasingly complex scenarios were being driven by a series of incorrect answers based on a previous understanding.

 

At this point, imagine the question of how do these cards - Blackmane's Hunt, Ragnar, Foresight, and Eldorath - interact, when and how do the warlords trigger their reaction at each planet they commit to, and can they use nested reaction windows to store up their reactions and trigger them at their final destination.

 

Let's now throw to an updated understanding provided by the design team themselves and go from there ...

[HidaHonk]

Here is the reply from brad andres

 

As far as Eldorath goes, yes this is how the card was designed and intended to function. You can react both times he commits by exhausting your opponent’s units. However Blackmane will only ever be able to trigger once (as he only commits to the same planet as your opponent’s warlord once) unless your opponent is playing Starbane and uses foresight to move to an adjacent planet that Ragnar can jump to. I’m sorry if your community is upset by this ruling but it is as the game was always intended to function. You can see the rules for Nested Ability Sequences on page 11 of the Rules Reference Guide for why these cards function this way.

Brad Andres

Associate LCG Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

bandres@fantasyflightgames.com

 

That was my email:

 

Dear rules team,

Currently a very interesting conversation is ongoing concerning the interaction between foresight and Eldorath Starbane as well as between blackmanes hunt and Ragnar Blackmane.

You can find the argument in the following thread:

http://www.cardgamed...window-resolve/

In short, it seems possible that under the current rules it is possible to use foresight to bow 2 units at the same planet using Starbanes 2 times. The same argument goes for blackmanes hunt and Ragnar Blackmane.

PBrennan explained the current ruleset in detail leading to a large number of confused and, sadly angry, players in my community. 

Even if the ruling is correct, the "power up" of both Starbane and Ragnar leads to a negative play experience, especially for newer players.

Thank you very much for your efforts,

Best

Robert

[Kingsley]

Good news, everyone - I emailed Brad Andres about this and he informs me that the ruling is not correct.

 

If Eldorath uses Foresight to move to a new planet, he can use his Reaction on both that planet and the planet he originally moved to, but not on the first planet twice, since Foresight specifically says he has to move to a different planet. Similarly, Ragnar does not get to use his ability twice when he plays Blackmane's Hunt because he only committed to the same planet as the enemy warlord once (though presumably if he committed to the same planet and used his ability, then the opponent used Foresight, then he played Blackmane's Hunt to move to their planet again, he could use it twice).

[HidaHonk]

So there was a misunderstanding in my email as Brad told me the opposite thing?

 

The question is, can Starbane use his ability 2 times on the SECOND planet? The answer that was given to me by Brad seems to say: Yes. 

[Shunsen]

"but not on the first planet twice"

Nobody wanted to do this, but use it twice on the second/new planet.

[HidaHonk]

Brad send my another mail for clarification:

 

The big thing to keep in mind is that the warlord’s know what planets they were committed to and trigger their abilities as if they were committed to that planet even if they move. In the example of Eldorath even if you use foresight to move him to a new planet then trigger his original reaction (because you are in the same reaction window), the ability still designates the planet he was originally committed to. This he will never be able to exhaust 2 units at the same planet with his ability. Only 1 at his original planet and 1 and his new planet.

 

Brad Andres

Associate LCG Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

bandres@fantasyflightgames.com

[ktom]

It's a little hard to follow, but the two answers from Brad seem consistent to me. It looks like it comes down to this:

 

1) Eldorath exhausts and Blackmane damages units that are "at that planet." "That planet" is the one they committed to, so is determined by the destination of the commitment rather than the location at the time the reaction is triggered. (This is the only thing to know; the rest of the post is just a list of examples.)

 

2) For Eldorath, this means that he has the choice of:

- "commit 1, exhaust 1, Foresight 2, exhaust 2," or

- "commit 1, Foresight 2, exhaust 2, exhaust 1" when resolving the reactions.

What he CANNOT ever do is:

- "commit 1, Foresight 2, exhaust 1, exhaust 1," or

- "commit 1, Foresight 2, exhaust 2, exhaust 2."

This makes some sense, right? He gets to exhaust 1 unit at each planet he commits to, not 2 units at the same planet (since he cannot commit to the "that" planet twice).

 

3) Ragnar works similarly, but his requirement that another warlord be there when he commits makes a double hit almost impossible to pull off. If the original commitment is to a planet with a warlord, he has the choice of:

- "commit 1(warlord), damage 1, Hunt 2(no warlord)," or

- "commit 1(warlord), Hunt 2(no warlord), damage 1" when resolving the reactions.

What he CANNOT ever do is:

- "commit 1(warlord), Hunt 2(no warlord), damage 2."

This makes sense because "that" planet has to have a warlord when he commits.

 

4) On the other hand, if he needs to use Hunt to get to a planet with a warlord, his only option is:

- "commit 1(no warlord), Hunt 2(warlord), damage 2."

 

5) The only way for Ragnar to use his reaction twice would be against Eldorath, who would have to move first. For example:

- "commit 1(both warlords), Eldorath exhausts 1, Ragnar damages 1, Eldorath Foresight 2, Eldorath exhausts 2, Ragnar Hunt 2(warlord), Ragnar damage 2."

If Ragner moves first, he can't damage a second time because it looks like this:

- "commit 1(both warlords), Ragnar damages 1, Eldorath exhausts 1, Ragnar Hunt 2(no warlord), Eldorath Foresight 2, Eldorath exhausts 2."

[WarFather]

Also from Brad Andres from Fantasy Flight

 

Ragnar will only be able to trigger once. When he commits to the first planet he is eligible to damage something at that planet if and only if your opponent’s warlord is at that planet. When he moves to the new planet he is eligible to damage something at that planet if and only if your opponent’s warlord is there. His ability is only able to trigger once for each planet and the only way you can damage your opponents warlord twice is if he is at each planet when you resolve the trigger. There is a very specific way to pull this off but it is incredibly specific and requires both player to move precisely as follows.

 

One player is playing Eldorath Starbane and the Other Ragnar, The Ragnar player must have the initiative.

Ragnar and Eldorath Commit to the same planet.

The reaction window to this commitment opens.

Ragnar triggers his ability dealing 2 damage to Eldorath.

The Eldorath player probably triggers his ability exhausting a unit at the planet.

The Ragnar player passes.

The Eldorath player plays foresight and chooses to commit to an adjacent planet.

The Eldorath player exhausts a unit at a the adjacent planet he is at.

The Ragnar player plays Blackmane’s Hunt, committing to the adjacent planet that the Eldorath player did.

The Ragnar player triggers his reaction to his new commitment dealing 2 damage to Eldorath.

[PBrennan]

I've hidden all the incorrect and superfluous posts - let's start afresh with new examples and clarifications (if needed) that people would like to ask, and get them answered given the new understanding given by the design team! Let's also assume that everyone says good, glad, yada yada yada ... so there's no need to post those. Let's continue to keep this thread as slimline for future readers as possible. Thanks.

 

(And yes, I'm actually quite glad because the whole thing was vexing me no end as well, but I swear this is different to how it's been explained previously. Anyway, moving on ...)

[xraysteve]

If Ragner moves first, he can't damage a second time because it looks like this:

- "commit 1(both warlords), Ragnar damages 1, Eldorath exhausts 1, Ragnar Hunt 2(no warlord), Eldorath Foresight 2, Eldorath exhausts 2."

 

 

(seriously not trying to confuse the issue anymore than it already has been....but this is more about passing than the actual hunting/foresighting).

 

In the quoted example, couldn't it look like this:

"commit 1(both warlords), Ragnar damages 1, Eldorath exhausts 1, Ragnar passes (praying Eldorath doesn't also pass), Eldorath Foresight 2, Eldorath exhausts 2, Ragnar hunt 2, Ragnar damage 2."

 

The only time Passing completely ends your turn is during the deployment phase?

[ktom]

Yes. It could play out that way. The important part is that for Ragnar to hit twice, Eldodath MUST move first. I used the "for example" line in my #5 earlier because I didn't feel like writing out all the various options depending on who had initiative, etc.

[Minute]

Yes. It could play out that way. The important part is that for Ragnar to hit twice, Eldodath MUST move first. I used the "for example" line in my #5 earlier because I didn't feel like writing out all the various options depending on who had initiative, etc.

Or Ragnar must play 2 hunts?

 

If I'm understanding the new ruling right, in a 2 hunt scenario.

 

1.  Ragnar commits to planet 2.

 

2.  Ragnar plays Hunt to move to planet 3.

 

Ragnar can now play a 2nd Hunt.  If he plays it in response to step 2, he can move back to planet 2 or to planet 4.  If he plays it in response to step 1, he can move to planet 3 again, or jump over to planet 1?

 

This means with 2 Hunts in hand, Ragnar could still nail any warlord twice so long as his initial commitment was to the same (or an adjacent) planet as any enemy warlord.  Is this correct?

[Cimadon]

"His ability is only able to trigger once for each planet and the only way you can damage your opponents warlord twice is if he is at each planet when you resolve the trigger."

That's enough to clarify it. Thanks to everyone that send an email to brad.

[Veetek]

So essentially, the "with an enemy warlord" requirement on Ragnar is checked on commitment, instead of when we try to trigger the ability?

 

If I understand this correctly, the following should then be possible:

 

1. Both warlords commit to the same planet. Ragnar's ability checks: Commitment? Check. Enemy warlord present? Check.

2. Eldorath has initiative and Foresights to a different planet.

3. Ragnar can still trigger his ability, but can only target a unit that Eldorath left behind - not Eldorath himself (since he's no longer at the planet Ragnar's ability "remembered").

[ktom]

So essentially, the "with an enemy warlord" requirement on Ragnar is checked on commitment, instead of when we try to trigger the ability?

 

If I understand this correctly, the following should then be possible:

 

1. Both warlords commit to the same planet. Ragnar's ability checks: Commitment? Check. Enemy warlord present? Check.

2. Eldorath has initiative and Foresights to a different planet.

3. Ragnar can still trigger his ability, but can only target a unit that Eldorath left behind - not Eldorath himself (since he's no longer at the planet Ragnar's ability "remembered").

 

Yes. This is all correct.

 

If they both commit to the same planet and Eldorath's first reaction is to foresight away, Ragnar's ability becomes unusable (as his reaction turn, he is no longer at a planet with a warlord).

If Eldorath were to do anything else that doesn't take him off the planet, Ragnar's ability would trigger as normal.

 

This is not true. It is what we were originally told was true, but yesterday's clarifications from Brad and FFG updated the answer (hence PBrennan's nuking of the thread and all its out-of-date information).

 

The "with an enemy warlord" on Ragnar's ability is checked at the time of commitment, not at the time the reaction is triggered. Therefore, Ragnar can still trigger his reaction to that commitment, even if Eldorath (or even Ragnar) has moved away with an earlier reaction. The caveat, though, is that since "with an enemy warlord" is checked at the time of commitment, the identity of "that planet" is also locked in at the time of commitment. So the unit getting the damage from Ragnar's reaction has to be at that particular planet at the time Ragnar triggers his reaction.

[ktom]

Or Ragnar must play 2 hunts?

 

If I'm understanding the new ruling right, in a 2 hunt scenario.

 

1.  Ragnar commits to planet 2.

 

2.  Ragnar plays Hunt to move to planet 3.

 

Ragnar can now play a 2nd Hunt.  If he plays it in response to step 2, he can move back to planet 2 or to planet 4.  If he plays it in response to step 1, he can move to planet 3 again, or jump over to planet 1?

 

This means with 2 Hunts in hand, Ragnar could still nail any warlord twice so long as his initial commitment was to the same (or an adjacent) planet as any enemy warlord.  Is this correct?

 

This seems legit, since Ragnar was able to commit to the same literal planet card two separate times. That conclusion is supported by Brad's general rule that "When he moves to the new planet he is eligible to damage something at that planet if and only if your opponent’s warlord is there."

 

That said, Brad's email goes on, and it could be read literally or as an example of the previous general rule.

When he says, "His ability is only able to trigger once for each planet and the only way you can damage your opponents warlord twice is if he is at each planet when you resolve the trigger," he could be illustrating a particular example (Ragnar using one Hunt), or he could ruling that even within a nested sequence, Ragnar only gets one bite at each literal planet.

 

I'm pretty sure Brad was illustrating a particular "one Hunt" example, so saying Ragnar can only trigger once for each planet does not contemplate a return to the original with a second copy of Hunt (which should be considered a new commitment). But I think it would be worth double checking that this statement truly is the result of a particular example, and not an additional general rule.

[FedericoFasullo]

And a last stupid question:

 

1 - Eldorath goes to planet A

2 - Eldorath Foresight away to planet B because "reasons"

3 - Eldorath trigger his ability on planet A

4 - Eldorath triggers his ability on planet B

 

Is it correct?