484 replies to this topic

[Killax]

Exactly as above. I also feel that many players (including me) have stated before that there is no situation where you go Straken vs Coteaz. You simply either go for the superior midgame deck (that can also be aggro) with Straken or go for the heavy aggro plan that Coteaz offers (while at the same time he also allows for a midgame deck).

 

The idea here is that Coteaz does not always have to be present to win certain battles but can be and does a whole lot on it's own. Granted I also feel that another token generator is something Coteaz would really want, I can't say it's something he absolutely needs.

 

So far my proxy games with Snotling Attack, Ammo Depot, Staging Ground and a multitude of cheap bodies have been very succesfull with either Straken and Coteaz...

[mannyg96]

Exactly as above. I also feel that many players (including me) have stated before that there is no situation where you go Straken vs Coteaz. You simply either go for the superior midgame deck (that can also be aggro) with Straken or go for the heavy aggro plan that Coteaz offers (while at the same time he also allows for a midgame deck).
 
The idea here is that Coteaz does not always have to be present to win certain battles but can be and does a whole lot on it's own. Granted I also feel that another token generator is something Coteaz would really want, I can't say it's something he absolutely needs.
 
So far my proxy games with Snotling Attack, Ammo Depot, Staging Ground and a multitude of cheap bodies have been very succesfull with either Straken and Coteaz...

Completely overlooked sending him to planets to grab command when theirs a unit shortage >_< Still wouldn't this play against you as it would be obvious when you can't bring him allowing your opponent to plan around him. And were you able to fight sustained battles with him? I feel like if you kill the bodies he wants to sac. you have to pack it up : /

[Killax]

I feel like if you kill the bodies he wants to sac. you have to pack it up : /

I dont feel Coteaz is alone in that however.

Simply destroying everything is easier said as done.

[mannyg96]

Not killing everything but what he wants to sac. so if you want to keep utilizing him you have start sacking your valuable units. I mean snotling attack is great for him but aoe (in all its incarnations )is a big thing right now. I'm probably looking at him wrong and hes meant to attack once for 3 while turning into a wrecking ball occasionally~instead of the other way around.

[Killax]

Well I sort of agree but not each faction has easy acces to AoE 1 or 2 but AM did gain Steel Legion Chimera to stick around.

I do understand your "worries" but starting with 8 cards and resources is a bigger difference many seem to undervalue. Which is strange considering people highly dislike a Murder of Razorwings against them first drop.

[VonWibble]

I think losing a card you had mentally planned to use is a psychological blow as much as anything.

And following it up with Pact of the Haemonculi is just nasty - assuming you have cheap enough units to still deploy good command.

[Killax]

I think losing a card you had mentally planned to use is a psychological blow as much as anything.

And following it up with Pact of the Haemonculi is just nasty - assuming you have cheap enough units to still deploy good command.

 

It is. But the fun factor here is that it isn't that different from starting out that way with Coteaz. Again 8 resources and 8 cards allow you to deploy another card in most cases where most opponents will have finished deploying before you. As such the additional information gained is another thing that is a valuable thing. In special because the initial Deployment Phase still is one of the most important phases of the game.

 

Deploying Good Command seems a non-issue for Coteaz as he also has the Psykers and Iron Guard Recruits available with potential Promotions if that is something the Coteaz player wishes for.

[Asklepios]

Ok, been talking about it elsewhere, but here's a thought experiment, in the right thread.

 

Theorycrafting time!

 

8 resources and 8 cards means that we can, optionally, go for a deck that drops a four coster on the first turn to planet 1, and still play a bunch more cards.

 

Hypergeometric calculator tells me that if I want a 90% chance of at least one 4-drop in an eight card hand, then I want to include 12 of them. If I want 2, so I can keep doing that on the second turn, I'll need 20. Thats impossible to accomodate efficiently!

 

Good 4-drops that could work well here for a rushy game:

 

Assault Valkyrie

Attack Squig Herd

That neutral Inquisitor bloke

Mordian Hellhound

 

Other nearby cards:

Leman Russ Battle Tank

Steel Legion Chimera.

 

So I reckon, if I pick, say 12 of these, there's a 90% chance of being able to play a first turn bully play. Also, so long as I get at least 3 cards a turn (2 from draw, 1 from command) then I have a 50% chance of drawing another for the next turn. Over course of a five-turn game, I should expect to see about 4-5 of my fighting units even with low quality command drawing. If, by some miracle, my draw goes faster they'll appear even faster.

 

Lets go:

3 x Assault Valkyrie

3 x Attack Squig Herd

3 x Hellhound

1 x Leman Russ

2 x Chimera

 

Everything else needs to be low cost as possible, 0s or 1s, to feed Coteaz and to provide mitigation of weak command.

Ideally, I want at least a 90% chance of drawing 3 of these in my opening hand. That requires 26 units!

Ok, too ambitious... lets compromise on 21 units, which gives 75% chance of 3+ weenies in opening hand and 93% chance of 2+.

 

First 15 is easy, because they're the ones with command icons.

 

3 Traders

3 Pirates

3 Deadeyes

3 Shoota Mobs

3 Tallarn Raiders

 

3 Goff Mobs and 3 Mystic Wardens brings us up to 21.

 

17 slots remain, 8 of which are forced by our signature cards.

 

9 picks remain, then:

 

3x Suppressive Fire is a no brainer, as we need threat countering.

3x Dozer Blade, because there'll never be a better time, nine vehicle choices, with the number one Dozer Blade pick of Valkyrie in place.

3x Promotion, to shore up command deficiencies.

 

So how we looking? New deck shape in any way feasible?

 

The theory here is that its not about drawing as many cards as possible - its about drawing your battle-winning cards in sufficient numbers to win battles, and having enough resources to play them.

 

Testing is needed of course, as the complexities of the game mean you can't run this on numbers alone, but I believe the concept is workable, so long as we avoid any 2 and 3 cost picks.

[Killax]

Yep thw proposed midgame to lategame Coteaz seems like an option here.

Might I add Muster the Guard to this mix as the plan is now not to sacrifice these units instantly?

At the same time I also believe that Snotling Attack can also be added here to full effect.

[Asklepios]

Oh yes, Snotling Attack! That could replace the Suppressive Fires perhaps...

 

Muster the Guard is interesting, certainly, but in the build I'm suggesting there's only 15 cards that could benefit from discount, which off an 8 card starting hand with one Muster is only a mean resource saving of 2.1R. Thats not worth it!

 

I think Muster the Guard is probably viable out of Coteaz, but in a different deckbuild, one that is almost mono-AM and runs 25-30+ AM units of cost 1+. In fact, I'm not sure its entirely unfeasible now to run 30+ units without looking outside of AM at all!

 

When Muster effectively reads "spend 0R1C and exhaust warlord to gain 4 resources of benefit", it starts looking quite playable, especially when we consider the tempo acceleration of the early game. Thats a different deck altogether though!

[Killax]

Im liking the ideas here. Will be able to test it rather soon altough comming week Ill be in Prague. Let us know how your testing went!

[Asklepios]

Ah I'm not testing yet, just theorymashing.

 

Right... lets look at Muster the Guard, and acceptable returns.

 

We know that losing the command-snipe is a big thing for any warlord, so I think what we want is a return of 4R on use.

 

One number we can't do anything about is that Muster the Guard is only going to be in opening hand (with mulligan rule) 65% of the time, though also we only need to worry about double-Muster collision 6% of the time.

 

If we want a 4R saving, we need to deploy at least 4 units. Essentially that means a hand that includes at least 4 units of 3R cost or less (discounted to 2R or less, obviously).

 

Sample size is 7/49, as we already know we have a Muster in hand as a prerequisite.

 

37 AM units of cost 3R or less will give us a 95% chance of hit there. A more conventional 32 units leaves us at only 82%.

 

As we're multiplying this by the chance of getting Muster in hand, 82% is too low. Basically something like a 52% chance of getting a worthwhile play out of Muster.

 

Off the 37 unit deck, its still not much better: a 62% chance of getting a worthwhile play out of Muster.

 

The problem here is the chance of getting Muster up front can't be pushed past 65%, and the nature of the game means that any Muster NOT drawn on turn 1 is likely to just be a shield card. Sure, there might be a later game play, but we're unlikely to ever have a chance to make a 4R saving in the later game.

 

Still, I think if we go for a deck with 37 AM units of cost 3 or lower, we're looking at a deck that over half the time will essentially be deploying 12R worth of units on turn 1.

 

Thats a pretty strong advantage!

 

Winding back to reality, the problem with finding 37 AM units of cost 3 or lower is that there's only 13 choices at present, one of them is Unique, two of them cost 0, and one of them (Augur) is useless unless we have 10 Supports as well. Happily, the sig squad accounts for 4 already, so we basically need 33 picks, and thats not doable without taking Augur, taking a 0 cost, or taking more than 1 of the unique.

 

Good picks include:

3x Cadian Mortar Squad (Core Set)
2x Captain Markis (Core Set)
3x Interrogator Acolyte (The Howl of Blackmane)
3x Iron Guard Recruits (The Scourge)
3x Ratling Deadeye (Core Set)
3x Sanctioned Psyker (Core Set)
3x Stalwart Ogryn (Core Set)
3x Steel Legion Chimera (Zogwort&#39;s Curse)
3x Tallarn Raiders (Zogwort&#39;s Curse)

 

We could splash in some 4-cost, or splash in some allies, but the maths starts going wrong if we do that.

 

Because we're seven picks short, I'd say the Muster deck isn't quite good to go yet.

 

However, as soon as we see 2 more AM cards that cost 3 or less and would fit this deck, I'd be willing to give this deck a punt.

 

The remaining questions in that circumstance, of course, would be:

 

What are the 9 non-unit non-signature picks for that deck?

How do we play the deck on those 1 in 3 games we can't open Muster?

Can we play a 32-AM unit deck that only gets a strong Muster 50% of the time instead, and have a deck that performs better in the 50% off-Muster games?

Do we really need a 4R saving for Muster to be worth playing? (I say yes, others may disagree, and if we're happy with a 3R saving, the deck just got a lot easier to build)

 

These are tough questions, but right now I'm just laying some theoretical groundwork...

 

Right now, I believe the Muster deck will still be outperformed by more conventional 2-faction decks that go for a less single-minded and toolboxy approach, but I do like thinking about it!

[Slick]

Ah yes that trap card,Muster the Guard

Amazing on paper but in practise its really iffy. Do i build a whole deck around mustering the guard to flood the Traxis sectors with AM and compromise on allies/supports and events? Great when you draw it but the chances of pulling it off falls short of amazing as, as AM you want to generally include the great supports they have which amount to close to 10 for a standard AM deck 

Now left with events which is going to be roughly 15 i assume? Add in the neutral cappers, the mustering chances when you draw Muster falls short

 

I tried it before, the most i got was 3 RC out of it but that means auto-losing a command struggle with warlord. And that wasnt the 1st turn so planets are filled with opposing forces,which sets you up for bloodied specially with this cycle of warlord hunting which is suicidal if you're exhausted at the beginning of combat. I don't think i need to list the amount of units that can come in mid-play to kill you.

 

To top it off with the Staging Ground and dropping guys mid combat specially Mystic Warden to feed Coteaz seems too good to not include into the deck.

So yeah,i think Muster is a card you exhaust to give 3 RC but lose cards/gold at a planet due to losing command.

IMO to build a whole deck around it and hope for 1st turn Muster is definitely a trap i dont want to fall into. I'd rather play a deck that can function fine without Muster.

Anyways every time a new pack comes out I'm scratching my head to find how to fit it in. 2 cents

[dmgcontrol]

Here's the Coteaz deck I'm thinking of right now:

3x Mystic Warden

3x Void Pirate

3x Rogue Trader

3x Tallarn Raiders

3x Elysian Assault Team

3x Sanctioned Psyker

3x Iron Guard Recruits

4x Coteaz's Henchmen

 

3x Preemptive Barrage

3x Snotling Attack

2x The Emperor Protects

2x To Arms

 

3x Promotion

1x The Glovodan Eagle

 

3x Ammo Depot

3x Catachan Outpost

3x Inquisitorial Fortress

1x Formosan Black Ship

 

 

As it stands unfortunately the deck is 52 cards. I am having a hard time deciding what to cut. The goal of this deck is to win command as hard as possible turn 1, and to win fights using a combination of the outpost, fortress, barrage, as well as dropping in assault teams as tricks, and putting out snotlings across most planets to become coteaz food along with any void pirates, rogue traders, and sanctioned psykers that outlive their usefulness (i.e. come to a planet exhausted with coteaz).

[HidaHonk]

I would cut 2xthe to arms. Only target that is interesting are the outposts.  

[Killax]

On the other side I have to say going beyond the 50 with Coteaz is an option for sure. Starting with 8 cards and the way you can set up with strong Command might even lead to a deck that can contain 52 cards without losing much consistancy.

[dmgcontrol]

I would cut 2xthe to arms. Only target that is interesting are the outposts.  

 

I'm inclined to agree with this, though it does leave the deck with kind of a scary low number of shields, with 8x1 shield, 3x2, and 1x3. To arms catachan outpost is of course good, and the thought of to arms + formosan black ship seems very cool to me, but that may be a bit too "combo-y" to justify two card slots on the chance that you draw your signature support. For the purposes of testing, I think I will go that route and see if the low shields thing ends up being a real problem.

[CapnSatire]

If you're running with Coteaz wouldn't you want to make use of Staging Ground combined with The Emperor Protects? Seems like a no brainer. 

[Killax]

If you're running with Coteaz wouldn't you want to make use of Staging Ground combined with The Emperor Protects? Seems like a no brainer. 

 

You would. Once you do you might aswell add Ammo Depot because that also synergizes really well with Staging Ground.

 

The most important part of it all however is that both Staging Ground, Ammo Depot cost 1, meaning they'll minimally hinder your resources for their effect.

 

My current ideal Support set up (also for Straken) as such would be likely to contain:

 

3x Catachan Outpost

3x Ammo Depot

3x Staging Ground

1x signature Support

 

As much as I still like Inquisitorial Fortress I'd say once the Ammo Depot and Staging Ground connect there are only a few battles Coteaz can't handle. 

 

The Ork allience does depend on what SM will recieve in the next and upcomming pack offcourse.

[dmgcontrol]

First Coteaz game: unmitigated disaster. Henchmen were terrible, black ship is a dead card if they go for bloodying your warlord. Basically nothing worked out.