371 replies to this topic

[HoopJones]

Hey. I wrote a huge article 'bout Urien.

 

http://teamsandcrawla.net/?p=4068

[HoopJones]

How many Tortures are people going to aim for?

 

For me, it depends a lot on the quality of cards, as I don't want to play weak cards for the sake of it...

 

Right now its looking like:

4 x Signature event

3 x Suffering (it has 2 shields and the trait, so is worth including for flexible plays)

3 x Power From Pain (strongest torture of the lot, by far)

2 x Visions of Agony (2 cost is steep for discarding 1 card, but still not at all bad)

1 x Soul Seizure. (because of lack of choice)

 

Though honestly, I don't really want the Soul Seizure there, as its too expensive for such a conditional effect, and only really going to be useful from Turn 5 ish onwards, I reckon. Also, 13 Tortures seems not enough to make the deck worth playing. I want another 3 good cheap tortures in there.

 

Two cost for looking at your opponents hand, picking their best card, and discarding it on turn 1 is...steep? No way!

[VonWibble]

Given there are already a couple of non command units in the deck, would you go to 3x Razorwings? I still think yes, very powerful on the card choke early game.

[ssjevot]

Razorwings is just pure card advantage.  It is a 2 for 1 for 1 resource.  You get a unit and they lose a card at random.  I can't see an argument for ever not running it.

[HoopJones]

Oh yea. Razorwings stay

[Asklepios]

Two cost for looking at your opponents hand, picking their best card, and discarding it on turn 1 is...steep? No way!

 

Well... honestly I think it is.

 

Archon's Terror is a god value event, in that it removes a threat at a critical moment, but after the opponent has spent resources on generating that threat,

 

The targeted discard also deals with threats, and is more permanent as well as granting useful information (like shield totals, presence of ambush plays etc), but has the downside that you don't know a threat of significance is there, and that the opponent hasn't spent resources on generating that threat.

 

I'd never spend 3 on that effect, and I think 2 is reasonable, but 3 x 2-cost events that are intended for payment and playing is going to damage a deck's economic viability, hence 2x not 3x.

[MikeMcSomething]

Well... honestly I think it is.

 

Archon's Terror is a god value event, in that it removes a threat at a critical moment, but after the opponent has spent resources on generating that threat,

 

The targeted discard also deals with threats, and is more permanent as well as granting useful information (like shield totals, presence of ambush plays etc), but has the downside that you don't know a threat of significance is there, and that the opponent hasn't spent resources on generating that threat.

 

I'd never spend 3 on that effect, and I think 2 is reasonable, but 3 x 2-cost events that are intended for payment and playing is going to damage a deck's economic viability, hence 2x not 3x.

 

Yeah if you have an opening hand that includes a Razorwing and a 2-cost targeted discard, you better hope those other 5 cards are going to do anything for you in the command phase, and odds aren't really in your favor when even your sig squad doesn't have hammers.

[MikeMcSomething]

Two cost for looking at your opponents hand, picking their best card, and discarding it on turn 1 is...steep? No way!

 

"Their best card" on turn 1 is a 1 or 2-cost command unit 9/10 games, so you're both down a card now, and he's up 2 resources on you. If his hand is full of efficient command (like it should be) then you're just down on cards later in the turn. If you're so worried about getting Drop Podded or something like that you can just spread out more instead of chasing it with 2R 1C. It's a great card when you need it, but you don't need it on turn 1.

[Etaywah]

3 x Suffering (it has 2 shields and the trait, so is worth including for flexible plays)

 

 

 

Yea I think 3x suffering is the right choice, because you're going to want non-event shields due to the increased cost of non-torture events. I had a similar reasoning. 

 

Of all the champions coming out, this is the one I'm getting more and more excited about, just because his style of play is SO different than everyone else.

[Asklepios]

That, and its a Torture, so it feeds other synergies

[Etaywah]

That, and its a Torture, so it feeds other synergies

 

Oh! I missed that. Reading is power.

[Asklepios]

Hey. I wrote a huge article 'bout Urien.

 

http://teamsandcrawla.net/?p=4068

 

Cool article, and I concur!

 

Umm... question: where is Searing Brand previewed? I recall now seeing it and discussing in in the past, but I can't find that conversation any more, and had forgotten about it till now!

 

In isolation, it looks terrible: 2 cost for either 3 damage to a non warlord unit or discard 2 sounds great, opponent's choice sounds not so great, and non random discard makes it all about what suits the opponent best. Thank god its two shields, otherwise it'd be sitting dead in my hand till the opponent is down to 1 card in hand.

[HoopJones]

Cool article, and I concur!
 
Umm... question: where is Searing Brand previewed? I recall now seeing it and discussing in in the past, but I can't find that conversation any more, and had forgotten about it till now!
 
In isolation, it looks terrible: 2 cost for either 3 damage to a non warlord unit or discard 2 sounds great, opponent's choice sounds not so great, and non random discard makes it all about what suits the opponent best. Thank god its two shields, otherwise it'd be sitting dead in my hand till the opponent is down to 1 card in hand.

I thiiiiink first planet podcast spoiled brand. I think it has potential for late game craziness though. .if your opponent does have "big" plays to make and limited cards, it puts them in a lose lose situation. Urien really needs two shield cards and I couldn't find room for suffering...though I may remove Crucible of Malediction and who knows what else just for the option.

Hell, suffering is looking like a decent play to counter Warlock Destructor anyway.

[Asklepios]

True, Suffering played is actually a pretty good delaying tactic, as its low cost, has effect on upcoming combat and doesn't reveal your unit plays / command intentions. For Kith, I've often opened with a Suffering on a 2/X unit. Especially fun if its a 2 attack unit with higher than average HP, (like Sic's Chosen, the lieutenants, Flash Gitz, Death Guard Infantry, Black Guardians) as those units are usually played for 3 cost and with an intention that they'll be key to winning combats against a Khymera-strong faction. In that circumstance, its so much better than 2-shields.

[MikeMcSomething]

Visions of agony is strictly a 'win more' card - if you were able to spend 2 resources on cards they haven't even played yet, you were already ahead and just cemented your lead. If you drop 3 resources and 2 cards in the command phase of turn 1, you have denied your opponent 1 targeted card and 1 random one - if you didn't grab the vast majority of his command units with both of those then you get to try to win a command phase against a player that's got almost twice as much money as you. But hey, at least you've got that naked 1/1 with no hammer on the board! If you run it, it will typically be to activate the ability of your signature squad by throwing it in the trash.

 

Kith is able to play the way she does because she is literally the best combat warlord in the game - if both players show up with equal shields the only fistfight she loses is Ragnar, and only then if he has initiative. Ku'gath needs a damage on him before the fight begins to win and Zogwort will go home bloodied before his snotlings bloody Kith in response. This makes any slight card or resource advantage in her favor exceptionally potent as she is typically free to go where she wants and kill whatever she finds there.

 

Urien cannot do that - a naked 2/6 warlord with no army buffs is actually going to be a liability in many combats and he loses out on two of the best signature cards in the game - Kith's Khymeramasters and the Den. If Urien is able to field a top-tier deck I suspect it will focus largely on killing the enemy units and warlord by buffing something like the Tormentor or another value unit with a Hypex injector and spamming Experimentations. His sig squad is great for this as well, so your game plan is basically to show up and punch with one unit a ton of times, while fielding anything with the Torture keyword on it, if only to pitch them to your 3/3's for 2. This makes you very vulnerable to direct removal and effects like Twisted lab while it sets you up for failure if your key unit gets moved off planet by something like Ku'gath's support card or Cato's signature units. God forbid you eat a terror or Inquisitorial Fortress.

[Asklepios]

Visions of agony is strictly a 'win more' card - if you were able to spend 2 resources on cards they haven't even played yet, you were already ahead and just cemented your lead.

 

Aside from the "strictly" I agree with you. Its also pretty useful for elimination of specific answers to threats you present. For example, if you have a swarm in HQ, and opponent has access to Doom, then its better to spend 2 resources then to lose all goodies. Likewise, if you're up against a faction that has Archon's Terror, and in late game, then normally they'll have held back one or two, and stripping those out preemptively is as good as a Nullify.

 

It is in fact, a strong effect. Its just one that I think deserves to be x2 in a deck, not x3, because the price is slightly steeper than I want for 3x.

 

I agree that Urien's best bet is to be solid in combat, and to go with a multi-attacking Hypex unit to bully planet 1. Not sure how it will look overall yet, but unless we see another strong Torture of printed cost 1 or 2, I don't think he's going to be T1.

[MikeMcSomething]

Aside from the "strictly" I agree with you. Its also pretty useful for elimination of specific answers to threats you present. For example, if you have a swarm in HQ, and opponent has access to Doom, then its better to spend 2 resources then to lose all goodies. Likewise, if you're up against a faction that has Archon's Terror, and in late game, then normally they'll have held back one or two, and stripping those out preemptively is as good as a Nullify.

 

It is in fact, a strong effect. Its just one that I think deserves to be x2 in a deck, not x3, because the price is slightly steeper than I want for 3x.

 

I agree that Urien's best bet is to be solid in combat, and to go with a multi-attacking Hypex unit to bully planet 1. Not sure how it will look overall yet, but unless we see another strong Torture of printed cost 1 or 2, I don't think he's going to be T1.

 

I agree, Visions of agony definitely has useful applications. I was speaking more towards the idea of using it in early turns, and specifically in turn 1. It's outstanding later in the game.

 

I actually think Urien would actually need a strong Army unit that synergizes well with Torture events - like a better version of Coliseum fighters or the Uber Grotesque. If just a really really good Torture unit shows up in a future expansion, one good enough to push Urien over the top, then it will likely be worth running in already top-tier Kith decks as well, which would just push him back to T2, unless it's broken enough that the top tier becomes Urien and Kith decks.

[GKZhukov]

RE: Suffering - It'd be nice to fit in, but isn't necessary if there isn't space. After all, the synergy is very limited at present since most triggers specify "Torture event". That said, since Raid isn't worth it in this deck, it's worth having at least one source of 2 shields.

 

RE: Torture Unit - if it triggers off Torture plays/discards or off Torture in your discard pile, hand etc. then I don't think it will push Kith too - I reckon it'd be quite easy to design one that helped buff Urien but wasn't worth including for Kith.

 

RE: Visions - I think it's being under-rated here. You've got to remember this deck works completely differently. 2 cost for a specialist discard *plus* hand knowledge is actually really useful. Additionally because it's Torture it buffs other things in the deck. The hand knowledge helps control the effect of things like "Experimentations" by being able to force the damage, and so forth. Turn 1 is a tricky one - I think it can still be powerful since you may be getting rid of one of the reasons that hand was even worth keeping and not mulliganing, plus early game knowledge can be extremely useful. However in the wrong situation it can put you on the backfoot.

[HoopJones]

The source of 2 shields is Searing Brand. Probably will see limited play but it does synergies with Hypex and Twisted Wracks.

I can't believe you guys don't see the power of grabbing your opponents best card for 2 resources in a deck that is decent at command with choke elements.

[Kingsley]

 

Visions of agony is strictly a 'win more' card - if you were able to spend 2 resources on cards they haven't even played yet, you were already ahead and just cemented your lead. If you drop 3 resources and 2 cards in the command phase of turn 1, you have denied your opponent 1 targeted card and 1 random one - if you didn't grab the vast majority of his command units with both of those then you get to try to win a command phase against a player that's got almost twice as much money as you. But hey, at least you've got that naked 1/1 with no hammer on the board! If you run it, it will typically be to activate the ability of your signature squad by throwing it in the trash.

 

I think this post is significantly misguided. Murder of Razorwings has proved extremely worth it at 1 for a random discard and a body to add to a fight (or to win the first planet by default). Visions of Agony, much like most other Torture events, is correctly priced in between two and three resources, meaning that it's a situational card for Kith at 3.

 

However, I think there's relatively little ambiguity around whether this card is worth it for 2. Seeing the opponent's hand and removing their best card is an extremely valuable effect.