127 replies to this topic

[yodaman]

With more data, one could certainly look not just at the simple LS wins vs. DS wins aspect but also the deck types.  With such a small sample being reported so far, I don't know if breaking it down to specific subcategories of deck-types would be useful yet.  I like the idea though.  We just need more data!

 

I certainly don't think sweeps in swiss imply a mismatch in skill level.  On the other hand, I do think it's a fair assumption that the skill level in top cuts, especially in a finals matches, is fairly even.  That's why I brought that up.

[dbmeboy]

You could also argue for weighting later rounds of swiss more than early rounds of swiss (once players have been sorted some).  Lots of ways to massage the numbers to say about whatever you wanted

[tierdal]

"this game has never been this imbalanced before"   Really tierdal, I dont think we're anywhere close to Gamor/Jedi or Dash/Freeholder territory.

 

In all honesesty after readomg all you're posts it sounds like you're just upset at not winning the tournament and doing as welll as you thought you deserved to so you're trying to manipulate statistics with imcomplete information and blame  the way the game for how you did in the tournamnent.  IMO.

 

....I was the TO...how could I win?

[dbmeboy]

....I was the TO...how could I win?

You were the TO, how could you not win? 

[tierdal]

This is a slightly different issue but gets back to the point.

I know why in Swiss 2 games are played against the same opponent. It is to make pairings easier in an already long day of tournament play. And in events with no top cut it seems to work a bit better.

However while they appear to be matches they really aren't and shouldn't be considered as such. I know some people don't like double elimination and feel the old system is better. I'm not advocating either here but having one part of the tournament appear to matches and the other being single games is definitely confusing and muddying the issue. Swiss would almost certainly be more balanced with a more complicated pairing system. It's just not practical.

With that in mind I just don't think analysing data as matches in Swiss, sweeps vs splits, is actually useful. The only affect the matching system has is timed games and possibly they should be thrown out the window. A draw tells us nothing.

Additionally without deck concept then raw data isn't that useful. If you want to see how well Mono Jedi is doing then you can't compare all LS wins and losses. Deck choice is often just as important as player skill.

I'm far more interested in the success of diversity rather than the pure numbers of LS > DS. If LS is having success with a bunch of different deck types then it's not Jedi that are the problem, it's why has DS got no tools for this. Or maybe most winning LS decks are running MTFBWY which they may or may not be but it's useful to know how the power objectives are as well.

Raw data might be what we have, but we need to treat it carefully because simple wins and losses isn't really going to get us very far in any analysis.

I for one was pretty excited by what I saw on the various regional streams over the weekend and the variation that is out there.

 

highlighted the part I liked the most - I think its the prior honestly. LS has all sorts of ways to win SO MANY good decks now (which is GREAT!!) but DS really doesn't feel like it can keep up. 

 

 

Agreed with this.

 

A sweep doesn't mean it was unevenly matched skill or any of that. Those games shouldn't be discounted. I suffered a few sweeps in really close games, and swept in some games where the final edge battle determined the win. Throwing those games out as uneven skill leveled mis matches seems off.

 

I disagree. Saying "DS can win" when the majority of DS wins come from sweeps isn't saying much. If things are balanced why would splits favor LS more? There should be an equal number of LS and DS splits.

[tierdal]

You were the TO, how could you not win? 

 

Heh. I had alot of fun and it was REALLY awesome to watch everyone else have a blast and enjoy so many games of SW.

 

That said - even the tournes I did play in I was alwyas top 4-5, and in 2 of those I drew against a VERY good opponent (one of scotts friend) with my DS deck. So like...yankeefan1355  I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I believe the DS is not setup for success, thought i think it is coming, I believe it creates a negative play experience I never felt when sith was crushing me (because I could beat sith with smart play). 

[Scottie]

LS is easier to build and play decently then the DS is.

If you are the type of player that forgets to trigger thier effects you will lose more DS games as a result of it the LS games.

If you are the type of player that doesn't understand the rules, specifically the timing rules, you will feel the effects of that more as the DS then the LS.

You'll come up with good LS decks easier then you will good DS decks.

And if you are inexperienced/just not very good you'll likely have an easier time winning with your LS then your DS.

And the reality is at any given event more people fall into the above categories then not. That is not to sound mean but just is the nature of any game.

[yankeefan1355]

You never said you were the TO tierdal.   My main point is that you seem to always say the game is too unbalanced and than use fuzzy math/statistics to try and make your case.  Can everyoe just play the game and stop complaining all the time that the LS is too strong or the DS is too weak, while last year before Dash/Freeholder combo was discovered it was the DS was too strong and the LS is too weak.

 

It's just getting old and boring listening to the same players spend all their time complaining on the forums instead of building decks, tesing them out, making modifications, and retesting.  I'm not saying that every player complains, however, it's usually the same players.

 

%80 of posts I see on this forum are negative and I rarely see any discussion about deck builds and discusions about them anymore:  The deck list, the idea behind the deck, why this pod is in there, what the overall strategy of the deck is and how it's designed to run..  Sure I see lists of deckds and tournament reprorts and those are great and I much appreciate the players that thake the long time and effort into putting  together match lists the re[prtomg  of all the games they remember.

 

The math breakdwon when used correctly is interesting (talking about you Yodaman)  but there's a luck of draw,a skill factor, playstyle, and an element of poker that you have to consider as well.  If this game or any other card game could be based purely by math than you could nail down how perfectly balanced the game is.  But you can't because there are too many subjective factors to consider.

[TGO]

But Scottie, this game has no skill, you just attack every turn as the LS and defend as the DS and never attack. Fool proof plans if I've ever seen one.  

[America]

But Scottie, this game has no skill, you just attack every turn as the LS and defend as the DS and never attack. Fool proof plans if I've ever seen one.

 
That's what I've been saying for years! I understand you are mocking my hot takes, but this game requires almost no "skill" to excel. 

[FuzzyWookiee]

Isn't FFG Beta testing a tournament system using a computer program for TOs? Would that help give numbers to LS/DS wins/losses? 

 

I agree that it won't give us a read on what is "overpowered" and what isn't. It would be nice if it gives us a similar ranking system like the one used with Decipher. That one ranked people according to region, and if you wanted to see what they played they posted on DeckTech. 

 

Any ideas about this system? 

[tierdal]

LS is easier to build and play decently then the DS is.

If you are the type of player that forgets to trigger thier effects you will lose more DS games as a result of it the LS games.

If you are the type of player that doesn't understand the rules, specifically the timing rules, you will feel the effects of that more as the DS then the LS.

You'll come up with good LS decks easier then you will good DS decks.

And if you are inexperienced/just not very good you'll likely have an easier time winning with your LS then your DS.

And the reality is at any given event more people fall into the above categories then not. That is not to sound mean but just is the nature of any game.

 

But is that not - the very essence - of imbalance? Why should it take more skill to pilot one side than the other? Not saying I agree with all your points - though some are valid, DS is way less forgiving right now..because they don't have the tools to deal with all the LS shenanigans going on right now.

 

The same people you are saying you can beat with your massive skill/knowledge advantage are the ones you are sweeping with your DS deck.

[tierdal]

Isn't FFG Beta testing a tournament system using a computer program for TOs? Would that help give numbers to LS/DS wins/losses? 

 

I agree that it won't give us a read on what is "overpowered" and what isn't. It would be nice if it gives us a similar ranking system like the one used with Decipher. That one ranked people according to region, and if you wanted to see what they played they posted on DeckTech. 

 

Any ideas about this system? 

 

Its not centralized and doesn't store information anywhere but your computers cache.

[tierdal]

But Scottie, this game has no skill, you just attack every turn as the LS and defend as the DS and never attack. Fool proof plans if I've ever seen one.  

 

I don't think any real competitive player actually thinks this. There are many ways to play and win on both side. Control is one way ,but much harder now that LS can just push through so much black blast.

[shaggscoob]

I don't think any real competitive player actually thinks this. There are many ways to play and win on both side. Control is one way ,but much harder now that LS can just push through so much black blast.

 

Pretty sure TGO was being facetious.

 

After seeing a single jedi deck go 28-0 amongst the Western Regionals top players, I'd say we definitely have a problem. 

 

That said, I'd like to see where we're at once this force cycle finishes.

[tierdal]

Pretty sure TGO was being facetious.

 

After seeing a single jedi deck go 28-0 amongst the Western Regionals top players, I'd say we definitely have a problem. 

 

That said, I'd like to see where we're at once this force cycle finishes.

 

Can you elaborate? Just one guy never lost a LS game in a regional?

[Dxopherj]

Play better

[yodaman]

The Smuggler's Den guys all played essentially the same Jedi deck at two different regionals and said it went 28-0 during those events. 

[Blake333]

And everyone forgets one simple fact about every regional. Is that it's data only shows the tournament meta from that region. Ga meta , is different from Nc meta, which is different from Ny meta.
So even raw data can be misleading. The joys of statics!

[KennedyHawk]

But is that not - the very essence - of imbalance? Why should it take more skill to pilot one side than the other? Not saying I agree with all your points - though some are valid, DS is way less forgiving right now..because they don't have the tools to deal with all the LS shenanigans going on right now.

 

The same people you are saying you can beat with your massive skill/knowledge advantage are the ones you are sweeping with your DS deck.

 

And you tried to make me think this wasn't a thread griping about imbalance. Another week another complainfest.