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TP. Errata/ restriction debate!

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346 replies to this topic

#41
Tripnrocket

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This does not need restricting it will make the ls have to build to account for this combo and that might change the no. Of yodas in a deck. This is my boba deck 2 training procedures, 1 sabotage in the snow, 1 jabbas orders,1 bespin exchange, 2 the hunt for solo, 2 the best that credits can buy, 2 the hunters flight.
Opening objective's,bespin exchange, training procedures, the hunt for solo.
Even if I start to get the combo off I still can't deal with the spider.
Ls is too strong let this ride it out, the game might be balanced.
Make the change if needed after nationals

#42
dbmeboy

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Deal with the spider by capturing it once it gets turned into a unit? Or capturing everything else and not really caring about the spider that has no blast damage? Granted that still requires getting the combo to go off... But if it does the spider really shouldn't be a problem as there's no way for it to be protected from Boba capturing it.
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#43
Tripnrocket

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HTrue. I still think this isn't on the same level as dash/freeholders that needs this restricted or changed. If there comes a time where you can search for a merc or bounty hunter then we have a problem. You can still rebel assault the vehicle he is on or moved to ( mostly 2 hp units ) forcing bail out and shutting down the combo.

Pair that with commando operations shuts off stay on target for a while. Hidden from the empire also stops ds form having a lot of units for around 3-4 turns plenty of time for ls to build a board or kill training procedures. That's jedi/rebel build

Than you could go dirty little secrets to blank the objective, run freeholders bounce the board, shutting it down again, sleuths will get pass him as a unit,

Ls has many tricks just seems like no one wants to find them but at the same time talking how op ls Jedi is we started working that out that's do the same for this as it's not even close to what the ls can do just gives ds another deck type ls needs to account for.

Fun testing all
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#44
pantsyg

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Hidden from the Empire counters the combo pretty well, putting those enhancements on your units protects them from Boba for minimal cost. 

 

Freeholders are also a nice counter play; if the opponent is using/holding his resources for a Boba combo, you might be able to punish him with cheap Freeloaders. 

 

After some testing, I don't see the Boba combo being nearly as consistently annoying as the much more common Sheets Yoda + Spider start for LS.



#45
TheEmpireBringsSexyBack

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Lol at the suggestion that you let a known npe ruin the biggest swlcg tourney of the year (gencon, since worlds is apparently going to be like 50 people) rather than fix it.

Also I appreciate all the "let's see what happens at regionals and decide"folks. I hope all of you are attending upcoming regionals and volunteering your time/games to evaluate this combo. As opposed to, you know, not giving a flip because you won't be playing and it's other shmucks who may get their tourneys ruined by it.

I have a regional in two weeks and this is a nightmare. I would like to win (however unlikely that may be) so I could actually attend worlds. Do I play some jank for light like freeholders & falcon, or do I play good decks and just hope I get lucky and my opponents don't get the combo set up? for ds, do I spend time trying to optimize a boba deck and risk it getting errata'd between now and then or do I test out the other stuff that won't be getting changed eventually
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#46
TheEmpireBringsSexyBack

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More lols at ppl saying, "well, it's not consistent..." No one it's claiming it is. The point is that it completely ruins the game when it does happen. Ls can literally do nothing (barring playing freeholders). Deploy a guy, he gets captured. Deploy a guy, captured. Repeat until the game ends. Ls isn't even playing star wars anymore. Hope you enjoyed traveling to your regional (or national) to sit there watching your opponent play solitaire for half your games
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#47
dbmeboy

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There are several things LS can do:
-play 5+ cost units. Commonly used options include Obi-wan, Home One, and Freeholders.
-Swindled (Boba will usually be on a 2 cost TIE)
-Rebel Assault to kill the TIE
-Blow up TP before the DS gets the combo. Without the card draw potential of HatC, this combo is much less likely to hit turn 1
-Play enhancements before the combo gets going

The combo may need to be addressed, but it's not true that LS can do nothing to disrupt it.

#48
TheEmpireBringsSexyBack

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Read the first three sentences of my last comment please
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#49
life

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you guys talking about new boba pilot?



#50
Jarrett

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You can infinite Leia, but it's not very good. This is a bit more consistent, but it's still fragile and not as viable as say anything the LS has. It is also resources intensive. LS is way more oppressive and has many more viable decks than having to start an objective and draw three cards and play them before you lose (LS can one-shot win the game or even just blow up three objectives before all of this happens). The deck also has natural counters (playing enhancements, Rebel Assault, 5 costs like Home One - all which are seeing play). I think you should playtest against the combo a few times and see how it works out, but I'm sure in the majority of the games against it you're going to win, unless you're playing a super slow LS deck or you're just bad at this game.

#51
Jarrett

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Also LS has options in the game (for example, Desperation) to where the DS can't do anything. If you're worried about said 'NPEs', which really are just metagame calls, then you're not metagaming properly and need to either play a deck with speed, enhancements, or both. I hear Rebel / Jedi vehicles are pretty good against this.
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#52
pantsyg

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There are several things LS can do:
-play 5+ cost units. Commonly used options include Obi-wan, Home One, and Freeholders.
-Swindled (Boba will usually be on a 2 cost TIE)
-Rebel Assault to kill the TIE
-Blow up TP before the DS gets the combo. Without the card draw potential of HatC, this combo is much less likely to hit turn 1
-Play enhancements before the combo gets going

The combo may need to be addressed, but it's not true that LS can do nothing to disrupt it.

 

I think these answers to Boba are about on par with the sorts of calls DS has to make to counter cards like Desperation, e.g. include enhancements, run TIEs, try to capture or discard it with Xizor or Interrogation, etc. 

 

I'm happy to see a card that's forcing LS to have to consider counters; for a long time now DS has been harder pressed to have answers to LS threats than vice-versa. I'm calling now that the combo-mania will pass, and Boba will be a nice card that forces the LS to rethink deckbuilding a little. 

 

I also agree with those who would rather see powerful cards come out than a bunch of stuff that's super balanced, but super boring. 


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#53
Tripnrocket

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So what I have completed a trench run in my first turn with dash so the chances of that happening are xxxxxxx so let's restrict that too then. Come on people I find half the fun of this game is beating decks that are tough on paper.

The only deck that had the unbeatable issue was dash/ freeholders.

Trooper/ executor / killing cold combo can be just as bad as this if it gets going and I don't see anyone complaining about that as most of the time the deck fails bad.
Talk about a knee jerk reaction ( this is too hard I'm not going to try lets restrict/errata the new stuff because I like the same old decks I have used all season boo hoo)

htfu use your brain and you might be worthy of competing in worlds.

Btw you have time till regionals build all the above and go hard then no matter what happens you are ready for any thing that may or may not happen.
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#54
Scottie

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I think these answers to Boba are about on par with the sorts of calls DS has to make to counter cards like Desperation, e.g. include enhancements, run TIEs, try to capture or discard it with Xizor or Interrogation, etc.

I'm happy to see a card that's forcing LS to have to consider counters; for a long time now DS has been harder pressed to have answers to LS threats than vice-versa. I'm calling now that the combo-mania will pass, and Boba will be a nice card that forces the LS to rethink deckbuilding a little.

I also agree with those who would rather see powerful cards come out than a bunch of stuff that's super balanced, but super boring.


But isn't this combo the apex of super boring? I mean ideally when it works the LS player doesn't get to play units, for the rest of the game. How is that not the most boring thing possible?

I think that posters are continuing to misconstrue arguments in regards to this combo. It isn't a consistent enough combo to do anything to improve LS:DS balance. Having a deck that maybe can 30% of the lock a player out of the game, but isn't a coherent deck otherwise, doesn't do anything to better balance the game. Boba Fett as a card is no less viable by not having this combo available. The game is worse, in my view, the more elements that are introduced that remove player interaction. This is the far end example of those elements. It doesn't better balance the game, just makes the game less of an actual game.

Also why are people calling this an infinite combo? It isn't one. You can't trigger it indefinitely as it is both limited by your resources and viable targets. It's reoccur-able but isn't infinite.

#55
Scottie

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And seriously Trip, I don't think you really make much sense.

It isn't a tough deck on paper or otherwise. It's a reasonably obtainable combo that will maybe net you a win one out of 3 times, because without the combo it doesn't have much. I don't see a deck like that being considered tough. But when it does beat you it will beat you in a way where you're only interaction with the game will be passing through phases. I don't consider that tough, just silly.

Dash/Freeholders was never unbeatable. It simply had the capacity to remove the DS player from effecting the game in a meaningful way, at times. Sounds familiar right? Dash/Freeholder was certainly worse because it was a viable deck even if it didn't combo out.

I've already addressed the comparison between the Tagge/Killing Cold combo. It's an untenable comparison to make. Tossing in the Executor doesn't help that.

Do you really think this is about, most, players clinging to there fairly unbalanced current meta options? All this board is is people to one degree or another pleading for this game to change, and you really think this is a reaction to getting that change? This doesn't change anything about the balance of this game, it just introduces an element that further removes player interaction. For no benefit to the game or meta otherwise.

Harden the **** up to be "worthy" of competing at Worlds? Are you serious?

#56
pantsyg

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I think that posters are continuing to misconstrue arguments in regards to this combo. It isn't a consistent enough combo to do anything to improve LS:DS balance. Having a deck that maybe can 30% of the lock a player out of the game, but isn't a coherent deck otherwise, doesn't do anything to better balance the game. Boba Fett as a card is no less viable by not having this combo available. The game is worse, in my view, the more elements that are introduced that remove player interaction. This is the far end example of those elements. It doesn't better balance the game, just makes the game less of an actual game.

 

I agree with your logic here, but I'm of the opinion that the chance of the combo actually firing is actually low enough (caveat: in my experience, much lower than 30%) that none of the involved cards need errata-ing (is there a better word for this?), as most of the proposed solutions, barring a change to the moving enhancements ruling, limit options for other interesting non-combo interactions. 

 

Boba himself, along with Vader, I think does good things for LS:DS balance. This combo thing seems like a Sleuths-style problem: a draw-dependent, combo-based spoiler deck that might get some surprise wins at the back tables, not something that's going to take over the meta and crush a bunch of huge events. 



#57
Jarrett

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Desperation removes player interactions since you can do little to stop it when the dial is at 8. A surprise Trench Run is easier to pull off, and just as lame. Jubba Birds lock out a board and you can do little against them unless you waste chokes, but then LS still pushes damage out and wins the game because they wasted their removal on chuds. DS has trooper shenanigans that it can do, but is just as resource and draw dependant. The combo isn't even as oppressive as MTFBWY, which just outright wins games sometimes. Giving the DS an option is just that - an option the LS has to worry about, and right now LS has little to worry about...
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#58
pantsyg

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Giving the DS an option is just that - an option the LS has to worry about, and right now LS has little to worry about...

 

This pretty much sums up the state of the game right now, and why I'm not concerned about this combo.


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#59
Scottie

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I think errata-ing is fine, the word I mean.

I think 30% is a reasonable estimate given that you have a 60+% chance of openning with the objective, the fighters are a reasonable given, so now you just need Boba. And to account for possible disruption such as Swindeled, and then also the redundancy inherent in the two combo sets. So certainly it is a rough estimate, but I don't feel as if it is a cornercase combo at all.

Do you feel that Restricting the two sets is overly harsh to non-combo elements? You essentially lose Boba as a good option for an attachment on the TIEs. I do agree that errata options likely cause too much un-intend effects to non-combo pieces.

#60
Jarrett

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I think errata-ing is fine, the word I mean.

I think 30% is a reasonable estimate given that you have a 60+% chance of openning with the objective, the fighters are a reasonable given, so now you just need Boba. And to account for possible disruption such as Swindeled, and then also the redundancy inherent in the two combo sets. So certainly it is a rough estimate, but I don't feel as if it is a cornercase combo at all.

Do you feel that Restricting the two sets is overly harsh to non-combo elements? You essentially lose Boba as a good option for an attachment on the TIEs. I do agree that errata options likely cause too much un-intend effects to non-combo pieces.


How many times have you lost to this? Or anyone? In an event? It doesn't need restricted. Its magical christmas land for it to happen consistently. If this gets restricted or changed without it affecting even one event, it pretty much confirms why I lost faith in this community. Instead of trying to find solutions they just ***** about something that intimidates them. That's why I don't bother posting much in the community anymore because people on here are so afraid of change, and just want to keep playing decks and not worry about the thought process that goes into metagaming. People don't want to take risks anymore. It's just so sad, especially coming from "good" players, even those that at one time innovated and took risks.
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