58 replies to this topic

[AussieJedi]

So some games were played today and Vader was piloting a vehicle. His ability led to some (Very) heated debates.

 

His text reads: (While enhanced unit is participating in an engagement, an opponent cannot initiate card effects)

 

So what exactly are the effects (types) that my opponent cannot initiate. I say something that must be declared like "Reactions/ forced reactions/ Interrupts. I believe anything like Wookie life debt (protect on the objective) doesnt stop, per se, but the protect that a card gets from W.L.D. is stopped, as a played must initate it from a wookie protecting a character.

 

My opponent had a few cards out that I said could not be resolved from having vader in the battle. These were:

Chewbacca.  and Chewbaccas bowcaster.

 

I said that the chewbacca unit card cannot resolve, but the bowcaster can since it is constant.

 

Also Dagobah nudj was out and that sparked some discussions in relations to the Vader ability, and whether the dial would tick when it left play.

 

This is proving to be a very contentious debate, so help here please.

 

 

 

[BobaFett]

Look at the last 3 or 4 responses in the official rules clarifications thread. I think dbmeboy and cataractcowboy were able to detail most of what your looking for.

[theChony]

Condensed answer: Piloting Vader while in an engagement stops everything except for Edge[x]. This includes the Nudj's forced reaction, and all fate cards.

[dbmeboy]

Best Answer

Vader stops anything that has a start point that occurs while Vader is participating.

- He prevents all Actions, Reactions, and Interrupts
- He prevents the effects of all fate cards
- He prevents Targeted Strike, Shielding, and Protect
- He prevents any constant abilities that "turn on" while he is participating (eg core Leia's capture ability)
- He does not prevent abilities that began before the engagement (eg enhancements such as Chewbacca's Bowcaster adding icons, Yoda's text)
- He does not prevent edge (x) (it's an always on ability, it just doesn't matter except when deciding edge battles)

[dbmeboy]

I think I got all the major categories covered there. If I missed something, let me know and I'll get it added.

[RoshPenin]

And what happen with the Yodas if inside the engagement the Core Yoda loses a enhancement, or increases the dial with MTFBWY Yoda, or BTS Yod loses a Jedi Objective?

 

Thanks in advance

[Jarratt]

And what happen with the Yodas if inside the engagement the Core Yoda loses a enhancement, or increases the dial with MTFBWY Yoda, or BTS Yod loses a Jedi Objective?

Thanks in advance

They are still constant abilities that don't initiate. They might reference a changing board state but they still don't initiate.

[Toots]

Sorry but I had my first experience with this new Darth and I'm really perplexed so I have a couple of questions.

How does he stop fate cards when its the rule book choosing to resolve the fate cards in step 3. 

How does he stop targeted strike when he doesn't stop people from striking? or does he? Targeted strike is already initiated when you strike isn't it? Striking is the opponent choosing to place a focus token and resolve and is as much as a rule as resolving fate cards. Targeted strike may assign the damage and sounds like its already in place.

 

[theChony]

Piloting Vader stops fate cards from initiating their card text. They still count their edge icons afterwards though. Treat the card as blank in those cases.

 

As for stopping Targeted Strike, it was ruled by FFG that Targeted Strike is a card effect. Vader doesn't stop somebody from striking in the engagement, but will stop them from initiating a card effect. So you can't even choose to use Targeted Strike and will have to strike normally. Just because a unit has Targeted Strike doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[Toots]

Piloting Vader stops fate cards from initiating their card text. They still count their edge icons afterwards though. Treat the card as blank in those cases.

 

As for stopping Targeted Strike, it was ruled by FFG that Targeted Strike is a card effect. Vader doesn't stop somebody from striking in the engagement, but will stop them from initiating a card effect. So you can't even choose to use Targeted Strike and will have to strike normally. Just because a unit has Targeted Strike doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

But the opponent's not initiating fate cards, they resolve according to step 3. The rulebook is not the opponent. That's what I don't get. Especially when 3 of them are not may clauses they are absolute. Was this ruled by FFG? 

 

Has he been errata'ed? My interpretation of an opponent cannot initiate card effects  is that effects that are initated by an outside source such as the rulebook don't get stopped by Darth Vader.

[theChony]

I see what you are saying, but it is the opponent's card, and although it some may not be optional, it would still be initiated by the opponent(the rulebook won't tell you who to damage with Heat of Battle), and thus prevented by piloting Vader.

 

The original Rules Book isn't the best source for these detailed in depth queries. I can't find much in the FAQ about this either, but you can be sure the community has double checked all of this with FFG.

[dbmeboy]

For what it's worth, I'm still working on getting a full breakdown on Vader and various card effects from Erik, got delayed for GenCon.

 

Basically, initiate refers to anything that has a starting point.  While the game tells you when you initiate fate cards, it's still the controller initiating them.

[Toots]

I see what you are saying, but it is the opponent's card, and although it some may not be optional, it would still be initiated by the opponent(the rulebook won't tell you who to damage with Heat of Battle), and thus prevented by piloting Vader.

 

The original Rules Book isn't the best source for these detailed in depth queries. I can't find much in the FAQ about this either, but you can be sure the community has double checked all of this with FFG.

 

This would infer that Vader cancel's effects. He stops effects from iniating. May on a fate card is still the rulebook pointing it out. 

For instance edge battle step 3 says "Resolve in order" as in the rulebooks saying Resolve fate cards with 0 then 1 etc. 

If darth vader is attacking and I defend and I put twist of fate in my stack and my opponent puts twist, he being the attacking player gets to choose which order they resolve in, so if the rulebook says resolve any fate cards with 0 and my opponent chooses to resolve mine first, what am I doing to initiate it other then putting it in the stack which vader doesn't prevent according to this post ?

 

I don't get to choose which fate cards do what only what the resolution is, which Darth Vader's wording does not prevent. which is why this ruling is going to be another Trust me. 

 

I really feel like a majority of whats been ruled is taking a big leap on what Initiate means. I choose who I strike then resolve icon's is more of a choice then fate cards. 

[theChony]

What piloting Vader actually does is stop you from initiating the effect:

Pilot (2). (While enhanced unit is participating in an engagement, an opponent cannot initiate card effects.)

 

So anything that basically initiates(through card text) cannot be declared. In your example, you'll be initiating the fate card text.

[Toots]

What piloting Vader actually does is stop you from initiating the effect:

Pilot (2). (While enhanced unit is participating in an engagement, an opponent cannot initiate card effects.)

 

So anything that basically initiates(through card text) cannot be declared. In your example, you'll be initiating the fate card text.

No I'm resolving it. Resolving is the step after initiation. That's the problem. I don't choose to resolve heat of battle, I choose where the 1 damage goes etc. If I chose to resolve heat of battle, step 3 of edge battle and the number on the fate card would be irrelevant.

 

I do feel it either has to be fate cards work or fate cards just can't be put in the stack. If fate cards are just duffed because they say its your choice, then that should also follow to striking because striking is a unit you control and your choice of placing a face token to initiate it which Vader stops. If you think Strikes work because the rule book says so then that would apply to fate. 

 

I guess I'll just wait til they come out with an official ruling. I just prey it leaves common sense in place because at the moment its both rule breaking and strong rather then Just strong.

 

[dbmeboy]

One thing you're missing is that fate cards are card effects. Combat icons are framework game effects, and thus are never in the discussion for being stopped by Vader. Same reason that blast damage icons work with Trench Run but Target of Opportunity does not.

[Toots]

One thing you're missing is that fate cards are card effects. Combat icons are framework game effects, and thus are never in the discussion for being stopped by Vader. Same reason that blast damage icons work with Trench Run but Target of Opportunity does not.

 

But thats my point, Fate cards are resolved because of a framework event.

[Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle.]  is the framework for Edge battles and has exactly the same wording as striking [The player who won the edge battle resolves one strike, if able.]

Both frames state you resolve it. 
 

Which begs the question why ignore one and not the other?

[Toots]

It also says you MUST resolve it before moving on, so If I put a twist of fate in the pile and my opponent had Vader, I would then be breaking more rules if I resolved any fate card After twist. 

[Jarratt]

But thats my point, Fate cards are resolved because of a framework event.

[Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle.] is the framework for Edge battles and has exactly the same wording as striking [The player who won the edge battle resolves one strike, if able.]

Both frames state you resolve it.

Which begs the question why ignore one and not the other?

I think you are skipping over all the nested steps of "resolve fate cards", for example, pay cost (currently there isn't any for fate cards) initiate effect, choose targets (if any), resolve effect.

Each fate card has an effect that is initiated. It is not automatically just resolved.

It also says you MUST resolve it before moving on, so If I put a twist of fate in the pile and my opponent had Vader, I would then be breaking more rules if I resolved any fate card After twist.

This is fine. You go into resolve fate cards. You follow the steps. Vader prevents the effect from initiating. No effect occurs. Fate card is now resolved. Move onto to the next one.

[dbmeboy]

But thats my point, Fate cards are resolved because of a framework event.
[Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle.]  is the framework for Edge battles and has exactly the same wording as striking [The player who won the edge battle resolves one strike, if able.]
Both frames state you resolve it. 
 
Which begs the question why ignore one and not the other?

Because while a framework step tells you to resolve fate cards, the effects of the fate card are still card effects. On the other hand, a framework step tells you to strike with a ready unit, and resolving the damage icons themselves are also a framework event.

And yes, Vader tells you to do something that is not how the rules normally work. That's basically the definition of the golden rule (card text overrides rules). A Hero's Trial allows you to play an Enhancement at a time the rules say you cannot. Trench Run allows you to engage and damage the Death Star dial while the rules only allow objectives. Wookiee Navigator allows you to engage the same objective multiple times when the rules say you can only do it once.