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Had a thought on neutral cards today...

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23 replies to this topic

#1
DoctorRiptide

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So as we know, the new core set is going to be pretty massive. ~250 cards as well as new tokens (made of plastic instead of cardboard I heard?), lots of good times and fun to be had by all. I had a thought today though about the neutral cards. It seems most of the economy will come from neutral cards (rose road, kingsroad), as opposed to faction cards since most of the faction locations have not been economy based, and factions are only getting like 3 locations each.

 

What are the odds a core sets contain more than 1 copy of the neutral cards? Or at least just the economy based locations?



#2
ktom

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What are the odds a core sets contain more than 1 copy of the neutral cards? Or at least just the economy based locations?

 

The Core Set for 1.0 had multiple copies of Crossroads. And other LCG Core Sets have also included at least 2 copies of resource-generating neutral cards. So it's probably a pretty safe bet that there will be multiple copies of at least a few utility neutrals. Obviously won't know before release, though.

 

We have seen in-faction economy cards spoiled, too. There's a GJ cost reducing character and a Stark cost reducing location. The NW has a gold stealing event (not quite the same thing, but still). And, of course, Lannister still seems to have plenty of ways to generate extra gold. So it's not like economy in the Core Set will be totally dependent on neutrals.


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#3
DoctorRiptide

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Oh indeed, I know neutrals won't be the only economy, that's not really the concern. I was thinking more along the lines of physical cards per core set in a deck building perspective. It's safe to say kings road and rose road are most likely going to be 3x in every deck for the time being, and with three core sets, I'd hate to not be able to make at least three full decks without having to switch around cards all the time :/
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#4
JoeyJellico

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I hope those 2 are three per core. I want to make a cube someday and put those in my own "draft starters".


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#5
ScionMattly

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Well we can math around a little.

We're gonna assume 28 Plots since everyone has said the game is four player out of box. That's a minimum.
14 "filler" cards
at 19 a faction, that's 152
that puts us at 194, with 56 slots remaining
With 18 non-agenda neutrals, you could put them all in triplicate.

which is interesting, as doing that will allow you to probably make a legal 60 card deck out of the box.
(Maths: Most factions are right around 6 loyalists and 19 cards, which means a mashed-up deck has an initial base of 32 cards. With 18 non-agenda neutrals, you would only need a little over half the neutral cards to be even duplicated to build a tournament-legal 60 card deck.)

Odds are good that Roseroad and Kingsroad are at least duplicates, wouldn't be surprised if the throne is too.

Interestingly, if you triplicate all the neutral cards, you still come in one card short of building 2 tournament legal decks (unless we count agendas now.)



#6
kizerman86

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I'm actually guessing the Roseroads and Kingsroads will be 4x in a core, for 4 reasons.

 

-  2x for each player in a joust (necessary)

-  1x for each player in a melee (again, necessary)

-  They don't appear to be spoiling any faction-specific 0 cost 1g producers, so they can afford to pring 4x neutrals instead of 1 for each faction.  It frees up 4 card slots that way.

-  I'm an optimist


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#7
ScionMattly

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Mm. I gotta wonder about putting in more than a playsets worth of a card.



#8
DoctorRiptide

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I just heard on Beyond the Wall they were talking about literally this exact topic, neutral resources. They also brought up the point where a core set is meant to be played by two people (potentially 4 like the original core?) and this literally wouldn't be possible without adequate amounts of economy resources, though not too many, otherwise cards seem wasted. I now have more and more confidence that I will, with three core sets, be literally swimming in neutral economy cards.


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#9
Azeltir

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I'm very surprised that they aren't doing the "quantity pips" thing they did in Netrunner - in the Core Set, each card had tiny pips next to the set icon indicating how many copies appeared in the core set, (incidentally making it easy to build the preconstructed decks when you had multiple core sets - just grab each neutral core card and all the core cards of a faction, and take them in the displayed quantity).



#10
Khudzlin

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It can't be that simple for AGoT 2nd Ed, but it doesn't have to be very complicated, if they make lists of suggested plots & neutrals.

 

@kizerman86: I'd rather have another neutral limited 0-gold +1 in x2 (The Searoad, for instance) than 4x The Roseroad (or any card, for that matter)



#11
langsion

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@kizerman86: I'd rather have another neutral limited 0-gold +1 in x2 (The Searoad, for instance) than 4x The Roseroad (or any card, for that matter)

 

Agreed, being able to triple up your draw chance is nice, but try playing a game when your setup is half a dozen locations and your draw is another half a dozen, you'll have lots of resources but nothing to spend them on.

 

With the 'Pillage' keyword explanation that has come out though its going to be possible during the game for a Greyjoy player to end up with six of any location potentially in a joust, depending on how prolific the keyword is across the remaining characters. Though if its just on Euron that would be like only Robert Baratheon having 'Renown'.

 

It leads one to ponder what might happen in a melee if there are ways to make 'Pillage' hit everyones discard pile at the same time? The Greyjoy players may begin salivating now.



#12
ScionMattly

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Yeah, one of the important things here is that everyone in 1.0 wanted what, 9-12 income locations?
With the curve the way it is and the locations not seeming much higher, you'd figure wanting 3-4 distinct income/reducers would be almost required to get big guys out.
I'm still not sure we won't see a reducer in each faction - none of the factions are 19/19 spoiled right?



#13
Asklepios

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I'd observe that you don't have to be able to build two tourney-legal decks to have 1x core set be playable with 2 players, you just have preconstructed taster decks that don't meet tourney-legal standards.

Conquest did this, with 45 card decks for each faction designed for the two player experience, even though legal decks require 50.



#14
Khudzlin

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@ScionMattly: Stark is almost fully spoiled, we're only missing Ice's text. Stark has a location (limited 0-cost, reduces any Stark card marshaled by 1) and a character (1-cost, reduces any Stark character by 1). So we're looking at 2 in-faction reducers in each faction.

 

@Asklepios: the Conquest demo decks are 35 cards, but it is possible to make 2 tournament-legal decks out of 1 Core Set: if you take all cards from your main faction, all common (non-loyal, non-signature) cards from one allied faction and 6 neutral cards, you end up with 49 to 51 cards (depending on your allied faction).



#15
ScionMattly

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Or two for stark at least.
Would seem weird to give everyone different amounts of reducers. though not crazy to give everyone different types of reducers.



#16
Khudzlin

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So far, we've seen that:

1) Greyjoy has a reducing character like Winterfell Steward (Iron Islands Fishmonger)

2) Martell has a reducing location like Heart Tree Grove (Blood Orange Grove)

3) Targaryen very probably has such a location as well (Illyrio's Estate) - it costs 0, is limited and is about reducing and marshaling

4) Night's Watch doesn't seem to have a reducing location, but instead has an event that steals 1 gold



#17
ScionMattly

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Do we know Blood Orange Grove is a reducer? I know its 0 cost and limited, just curious.

NW is shaping up to be wird. No reducers, no inherent renown.



#18
Jekothalep

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Do we know Blood Orange Grove is a reducer? I know its 0 cost and limited, just curious.

 

To my knowledge, there is no official confirmation for this so far.

But my guess would be the same as Khudzlin's, since the text we can seen is identical to the Heart Tree Grove.

 

In the tutorial video we also see a Lannister card with the old Lannisport Weaponsmith art at 16:31, which seems to fit the template of the Winterfell Steward and the Fishmonger (1 gold, Power icon, 1 STR, "Marshaling Action: Kneel Lannisport ..." followed by a Liannister icon in the text).

And there is also a very similar card in the video for Martell with the old Southron Scavengers art that can be seen at 1:25.



#19
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The text visible on Blood Orange Grove in the tutorial video reads:

 

0-cost, non-unique, non-loyal.

Limited.

Marshaling Action: K...

Grove to reduce the co...

card you marshal this p...

 

I'd say it's a safe bet that it kneels to reduce Martell cards by 1.



#20
Azeltir

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@ScionMattly: Stark is almost fully spoiled, we're only missing Ice's text.

Psh, we basically even have that:

 

YLohoef.png

 

3 gold, unique loyal Stark attachment.

 

Stark Character only.

 

Attached character gets +2 STR.

 

Response: After you win a military challenge in which the attached character is participating, kneel Ice to choose and kill a character controlled by the losing opponent.

________________________

 

Very little of that up for interpretation.