121 replies to this topic

[scantrell24]

Robert > Dany > QoT > Euron > Eddard > Old Bear > Tywin > Red Viper

I'd put Red Viper ahead of Tywin and Old Bear. Otherwise spot on.

[JCWamma]

Bah. All Euron needs is for an opponent to use a Kingsroad once. At that point, the economic advantage you gain by utilizing their Kingsroad every turn for the rest of the game (essentially) is huge!

 

The real chart of their strength would be something closer to:

 

Robert > Dany > QoT > Euron > Eddard > Old Bear > Tywin > Red Viper

 

It seems incredibly backwards to me that Euron is amazing for giving a conditional economic boon of 3 gold, while Tywin is rubbish for giving a guaranteed economic boon of 2 gold and having a better passive ability .

[Snowed]

I guess I'm not as high on Euron as others.

Bob > Dany > Ned > QoT > Viper > Euron > Tywin > Old Bear

[Bomb]

I totally forgot that Tywin had +2 gold on him.  I'd consider him as a bigger contender for the top now.

[RobbyStark]

I'd put Red Viper ahead of Tywin and Old Bear. Otherwise spot on.

 

 

I'm looking at Viper and Tywin side to side, and finding it very tough to reason how viper is stronger.

[ScionMattly]

Well, if you win the challenge by 75 strength you win the game, so clearly he's good.

[Kennon]

It seems incredibly backwards to me that Euron is amazing for giving a conditional economic boon of 3 gold, while Tywin is rubbish for giving a guaranteed economic boon of 2 gold and having a better passive ability .

 

That wasn't the only criteria I used to decide as such. I just didn't detail all of my criteria for all of the characters. 

 

Cost, base strength, and icons aside since they're the only two exactly the same there, Euron also provides an extra keyword that is potentially a win condition as the game does on. As well, his ability, while in the most basic and probably consistent sense a simple economic boon, will only grow over time as the application widens from more location control, pillage, or self discarding locations.

 

Sure, Tywin's gold bonus will have a greater variety of cards to spend that money on as the game progresses, but that doesn't actually make his bonus more useful. Any gold providing card does exactly the same. And for the foreseeable future, I'm not certain even Lannister will have a pile of gold sitting around for very long. Well, at least without skipping marshalling. Even with ambush, I'm not sure Lannister wants to do that entirely. As well, his passive boost has a large element of dictating the order of your challenges/ambush/events in the challenge phase in order to actually get use out of out.

[JCWamma]

That wasn't the only criteria I used to decide as such. I just didn't detail all of my criteria for all of the characters. 

 

Cost, base strength, and icons aside since they're the only two exactly the same there, Euron also provides an extra keyword that is potentially a win condition as the game does on. As well, his ability, while in the most basic and probably consistent sense a simple economic boon, will only grow over time as the application widens from more location control, pillage, or self discarding locations.

 

Sure, Tywin's gold bonus will have a greater variety of cards to spend that money on as the game progresses, but that doesn't actually make his bonus more useful. Any gold providing card does exactly the same. And for the foreseeable future, I'm not certain even Lannister will have a pile of gold sitting around for very long. Well, at least without skipping marshalling. Even with ambush, I'm not sure Lannister wants to do that entirely. As well, his passive boost has a large element of dictating the order of your challenges/ambush/events in the challenge phase in order to actually get use out of out.

 

I think referring to Pillage as a win condition, even potentially, is...optimistic? I'd take the gold-contingent STR boost of Tywin over the Pillage any day.

 

The conditionality of Euron's economy was more referring to having to win with him, rather than having a character to drop. If I kneel your Euron, or prevent him winning the challenge, or whatever else, no trigger for you; Tywin is giving that +2 no matter what, unless you blank him (which is obviously works just as well on Euron). Tywin also doesn't open himself up to Dracarys! to secure the economy, and if you set him up he's up and running quicker than Euron. And this is all assuming your opponent has triggered a Kingsroad so far.

 

The flexibility of Euron's trigger is definitely nice, and as you say the application for it does develop over time. But I think in most cases I'll take ol' reliable Tywin, at least for the foreseeable.

[Kennon]

Another factor consider for Tywin that I feel dings him is that in 1ED, I could have a good enough board position to not want to marshall, thus keeping my gold to pump him and keep those cards in my hand. Unfortunately, the reserve value in 2ED means that it should almost always be better to play cards if I can afford them if I would otherwise lose them to reserve. This means that I'm less likely to have gold sitting to boost Tywin because, all things considered, his passive ability is not worth a card to me, unlike some of the other characters that easily illustrate that they are worth a card inherently.

[ScionMattly]

Tywin does have a unique benefit of you can control exactly HOW susceptible to burn he is.

[Kennon]

Sure, but how often do I want to forgo advancing my board position further just to ensure that Tywin can't be burnt? If I'm only a power or two away, maybe, but most of the time, probably not.

[JCWamma]

Another factor consider for Tywin that I feel dings him is that in 1ED, I could have a good enough board position to not want to marshall, thus keeping my gold to pump him and keep those cards in my hand. Unfortunately, the reserve value in 2ED means that it should almost always be better to play cards if I can afford them if I would otherwise lose them to reserve. This means that I'm less likely to have gold sitting to boost Tywin because, all things considered, his passive ability is not worth a card to me, unlike some of the other characters that easily illustrate that they are worth a card inherently.

 

Sure, but that seems like an exceptionally niche, almost "first world problem" level of downside. "My board position is so comfortable that I don't need to play any characters and can use Tywin's gold to pump his STR instead, but then I'll have to discard a card that I didn't think it was worth me actually playing in the first place to reserve".

[hop]

Sure, but how often do I want to forgo advancing my board position further just to ensure that Tywin can't be burnt? If I'm only a power or two away, maybe, but most of the time, probably not.

Events costs gold and Lannister is the house of ambush now. Plenty of reasons to keep some gold after marshalling. Once the tywin challenge is over, use your gold!

[nikotinlaus]

Also there is Tyrion. He can give his old daddy up to 4 additional str just by being there. I think Tywin is underestimated, but for me Robert is still the strongest.

[FinalWarrior]

I feel like it goes something like this:

Bob > Dany > Viper > QoT, Ned > Euron > Tywin > Old Bear

 

Reasons have already been debated for Bob and Dany, but The Viper is a closer. You need to have an answer to him quickly once he hits the table- which will probably be about turn 3/4. For that reason I feel he ranks higher than even Ned, who, although is good, feels more like a nuisance than a threat. Queen of Thorns is solid early game- probably on par with Ned.  Euron also gives you access to non economy locations which can really swing the game- more so than Tywin.  Old Bear seems like a worse version of QoT.

[Jensen22]

So much hate for Pillage going around.

 

I think Pillage benefits from the new win condition more than the new win condition benefits from Pillage. I don't see Pillage as a way to deck your opponent and win by "playing a different game" I see pillage + the new win condition as an additional pressure you can apply to your opponent in the late game. In Euron's case I see it simply as an engine to fuel his ability.

[ScionMattly]

Viper is a closer
Yeah, in the four turns it takes him to collect 12 power.

I really hope put to the sword is some sort of neutral direct kill.

But the idea that viper is better than Oleanna is bizarre. Drop in a fat Tarly, go to town. Drop in flowers, go to town. Drop in Margaery, stand your tarly. Drop in an informant, and go punch some in the face again.

Really I don't think I need an answer for the viper beyond a two claim plot - because life is gonna be hard when you've sunk 20 gold into your board for three characters and I flip Winds of Winter with five.

[IdeYoshiya]

I feel like Robert is an obvious choice. Joust aside, no one wants to face Bara in Melee.

If that turns out to be true, I'd say it's a mark of quality design, since board control has traditionally been a difficult strategy to pull off in multiplayer. But the downside, of course, is that if the Baratheon player is not playing his stronger kneeling effects cautiously (e.g. Stannis), he risks uniting the table against him.

[casanunda]

Tywin's +2 Gold does make him nice and consistent, more so than the economic boost provided by QoT or Old Bear.  Should QoT get knelt, there goes your advantage, whereas Tywin is always a factor.  I like that consistency, especially coupled with the fact that he's a much more effective character than either of them outside of the economic benefit (Renown, extra icon, higher strength).  Old Bear definitely seems too reliant on The Wall to be good, since his economic ability seems tougher to trigger than QoT (stealth will be a PITA).

 

Bob seems like the clear winner in Joust, not only for the reasons discussed here, but also his synergy with Ours is the Fury and Lightbringer.  The latter isn't very nedly, but when you win a challenge, kneel a character, gain a power, then immediately stand again, screw nedly.

 

I do like Eddard in Melee, however.  His ability provides a disincentive for everyone at the table to swing at you, which pretty means that guaranteed you will lose less challenges with him in play.  His somewhat subpar Str for his cost seems to be the main problem with him, but at least you have Ice in faction to mitigate that a little.

[Kennon]

In consideration of the Viper as a closer, for the majority of the game, how likely is his ability to gain you more power per challenge than just straight renown? Not terribly. The steadier gain of renown is better, in my opinion. Plus of course, Treachery can cancel his ability.