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Infiltration with Pilots


Best Answer dbmeboy , 23 July 2015 - 05:58 PM

Stay on Target (0702/0712) reads: “You may put a Pilot card into play from your hand or discard pile as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” And the pilot (X) keyword rules state: “When a card with the pilot (X) keyword is put into play by a card effect, the player resolving the effect chooses whether it enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement."
 
While the pilot rules do generally permit a player to make a choice as to how a pilot card enters play, effects like Stay on Target dictate how that choice must be made. This is a situation in which the Golden Rule (card text takes priority over rulebook/rules sheet text, rulebook page 11) trumps the rules text in the pilot (X) keyword and forces one particular choice to be made when the Pilot card enters play. The important point is that such an effect uses a construction starting with “as” (“as a participating unit,” “as an enhancement,” etc) following the “put into play” text. Currently, there are only 3 of these types of effects (Infiltration, Stay on Target, and DS-61-3).
 
This ruling is a reversal of the previous Stay on Target ruling, and also reverses the ruling on Infiltration (0575) as that card uses a similar wording to Stay on Target. (Infiltration reads: “...…put a Character unit into play from your hand as a participating unit on your side. …”) This means that if you play Infiltration and choose a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword, the unit you choose must end up in play “as a participating unit on your side.” Furthermore, if you use Stay on Target, the chosen Pilot card must end up in play “as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” These two effects, and any similar effects that uses an “as a {SOMETHING}” phrase, dictate a manner in which the card must enter play, which—because of the golden rule that gives priority to card text—the pilot (X) rules will not override.
 
Other effects that put units into play that do not have such “as an…” phrasing that dictates the manner in which the card enters play, however, can still interact with the pilot (X) rules. For example, the Millennium Falcon(0332) says “…put a Character or Droid unit into play from your hand.” In this case, if you put a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword into play using the Millennium Falcon’s text, you would have the choice of whether that unit enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement. This is because the Falcon does not dictate the manner in which the card must enter play, only the conditions it must meet in order to be chosen to put into play.

--
Erik Dahlman
LCG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
 
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Do note that Infiltration can still put Wedge and Hoth Luke into play as enhancements as those are card effects changing how they enter play and thus not subject to the golden rule.
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41 replies to this topic

#21
doctormungmung

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Nuances. 

 

So, you can play a Rookie Pilot onto a ship and have it immediately die with SoT, and you can put Rebel Luke into play as a unit with SoT, but you can't put Rookie Pilot into play as a unit with SoT.  All these unintended rules clarifications are getting rather convoluted.  I just want my Rookie Pilots on Rogues again. :P



#22
dbmeboy

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✓  Best Answer
Stay on Target (0702/0712) reads: “You may put a Pilot card into play from your hand or discard pile as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” And the pilot (X) keyword rules state: “When a card with the pilot (X) keyword is put into play by a card effect, the player resolving the effect chooses whether it enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement."
 
While the pilot rules do generally permit a player to make a choice as to how a pilot card enters play, effects like Stay on Target dictate how that choice must be made. This is a situation in which the Golden Rule (card text takes priority over rulebook/rules sheet text, rulebook page 11) trumps the rules text in the pilot (X) keyword and forces one particular choice to be made when the Pilot card enters play. The important point is that such an effect uses a construction starting with “as” (“as a participating unit,” “as an enhancement,” etc) following the “put into play” text. Currently, there are only 3 of these types of effects (Infiltration, Stay on Target, and DS-61-3).
 
This ruling is a reversal of the previous Stay on Target ruling, and also reverses the ruling on Infiltration (0575) as that card uses a similar wording to Stay on Target. (Infiltration reads: “...…put a Character unit into play from your hand as a participating unit on your side. …”) This means that if you play Infiltration and choose a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword, the unit you choose must end up in play “as a participating unit on your side.” Furthermore, if you use Stay on Target, the chosen Pilot card must end up in play “as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” These two effects, and any similar effects that uses an “as a {SOMETHING}” phrase, dictate a manner in which the card must enter play, which—because of the golden rule that gives priority to card text—the pilot (X) rules will not override.
 
Other effects that put units into play that do not have such “as an…” phrasing that dictates the manner in which the card enters play, however, can still interact with the pilot (X) rules. For example, the Millennium Falcon(0332) says “…put a Character or Droid unit into play from your hand.” In this case, if you put a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword into play using the Millennium Falcon’s text, you would have the choice of whether that unit enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement. This is because the Falcon does not dictate the manner in which the card must enter play, only the conditions it must meet in order to be chosen to put into play.

--
Erik Dahlman
LCG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
 
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Do note that Infiltration can still put Wedge and Hoth Luke into play as enhancements as those are card effects changing how they enter play and thus not subject to the golden rule.

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#23
Jarratt

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Do note that Infiltration can still put Wedge and Hoth Luke into play as enhancements as those are card effects changing how they enter play and thus not subject to the golden rule.


This is terribly inconsistent. If they have be a unit should that have to be a unit.

Can you explain the reasoning or step by step that allows this to happen.

#24
PBrennan

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Agreed. Hang on while I don my guardian of sanity cape once more.


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#25
dbmeboy

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Reasoning goes something like this:

Step 0: I'm going to play Infiltration

Step 1: I have a unit in hand that I can put into play

Steps 2-5: Stuff

Step 6: Wedge is entering play.  Per his text, when he enters play, he may enter as an enhancement on a speeder or fighter.  In this case, the Golden Rule does not apply as it is not a case of card text overruling rules.

 

This is hardly the only way in which Luke/Wedge/BSP function differently than pilots.  They cannot get around Hidden from the Empire.  They cannot be played with Hero's Trial.  They cannot go on any vehicle.

 

As PBrennan referenced, he is arguing for this one to be changed.



#26
PBrennan

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I'm also arguing that Wedge/Luke can be played with A Hero's Trial, given it's exactly the same situation and abilities as what was confirmed in Conquest with Gun Drones and Ambush Platform. But, different games, could be different rulings (though I can't currently see how given the rules as written). Anyway, FFG's call.

 

Patrick



#27
dbmeboy

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Not the same text at all. Gun Drones have an ability that allows them to be deployed (played) as an enhancement (just like pilot x). Luke, Wedge, and BSP have abilities that allow them to become an enhancement when they enter play.

#28
dbmeboy

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I do have confirmation from Erik that Luke, Wedge, and Black Squadron Pilot do work differently than cards with the pilot (x) keyword (as they are worded differently). Luke and Wedge will continue to maintain the option to become enhancements when they enter play as part of the resolution of Infiltration as card effects can alter the resolution of other card effects.

#29
Jarratt

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I do have confirmation from Erik that Luke, Wedge, and Black Squadron Pilot do work differently than cards with the pilot (x) keyword (as they are worded differently). Luke and Wedge will continue to maintain the option to become enhancements when they enter play as part of the resolution of Infiltration as card effects can alter the resolution of other card effects.


Right so he's basically ruling that Luke and Wedge's game text can override the game game text of infiltration. I mean that makes sense.

But...

Again it's terribly inconsistent. Yes I get that they work differently and that this rule will likely never ever matter.

My 2 cents. If you don't follow through on the text of Infiltration then the effect should fizzle.

While I wasn't in this camp at the start in definitely beginning to think that these cards should have just been give Pilot (x) and so should the Rookie. It would have made things a lot simpler for what is already a convoluted keyword.

#30
dbmeboy

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I agree that they should have been given pilot (x).  My guess is that they didn't want to find a way to fit the pilot rules into the core rulebook for future printings (which they would have to do if they gave Black Squadron Pilot the pilot keyword) or add the rules printout to future printings of the Hoth cycle.  Hence errata that at least allow them to play nice with some of the pilot toys (without the errata, Stay On Target would be able to put them into play on a Fighter, but they wouldn't get their text) but isn't quite the same as the other pilots.



#31
PBrennan

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In other LCG's, a constant that says "This unit may enter play as an enhancement ..." is considered a permission, and it's been defined that the term "enter play" contains the subsets of "play" and "put into play", covering both. In those games, this constant allows this card to satisfy the step 1 check (ability initiation) for abilities like deploying an enhancement or putting an enhancement into play - because it's permitted to enter play as such. It's also obviously acceptable for the card to be deployed/put into play in step 6 (effect resolution).

 

For more detail, Shadowsun Stealth Cadre is worded in exactly the same manner, and a tutorial vetted by Nate French can be found here:

http://www.cardgamed...bush-platform/ 

 

Also, in other LCG's, a replacement effect is defined by containing the word "instead". My understanding was that it was the same for Star Wars, but they've decided to go another path.

 

In Star Wars it's being ruled that constants that say "a card may enter play" is a replacement effect, keyed to the timing point of when something actually physically enters play, at which point you choose which of the two allowed forms it's going to enter. When an ability like "put a unit into play" is being resolved, Wedge/Luke's constant allows it to effectively replace the resolution of that effect with "put an enhancement into play".

 

It's unclear to me at this point whether this type of constant is also still considered a permission in Star Wars, so that the card passes step 1 for both "put a unit into play" and "put an enhancement into play" effects while it's physically a unit in the hand, or whether it cannot satisfy step 1 for "put an enhancement into play" effects because it's physically a unit in the hand. That may have been ruled on previously in this forum, but I couldn't see it after a quick check.

 

Here's the next part ... put into play effects are in the form of "put {card} into play {in this required state}". An example is Infiltration where the required state is "as a participating unit" (but another example of a required state might be "exhausted" say, or "under an opponent's control" even). This ruling, that Infiltration allows Luke/Wedge to enter play as a unit without having to satisfy the required state of being a participating unit (because Infiltration's card text is overriden by Wedge/Luke's text), creates a precedent that these replacement effects are permitted to ignore any specified required state.

 

If this precedent holds and is true (as opposed to just being a one-off ruling for this interaction), there are repercussions, shown by example:

a.) if I have an ability that says "put a unit into play exhausted", I'd be allowed to ignore the required state of "exhausted" and can put Luke/Wedge into play as either a non-exhausted enhancement or a non-exhausted unit (because the default is ready)

b.) if I have an ability that says "put a unit into play as a participating unit", then Luke/Wedge can enter play, but because the "as a participating unit" required state is replaced/negated by Luke/Wedge's constant, it cannot actually enter play as a participating unit, it just enters as a normal unit, ready and non-participating.

 

Anyway, these were the types of arguments put forward in regard to this issue, but in the end Star Wars has decided to rule these permission effects differently from the other LCG's. Without the use of "instead" to guide what are replacement effects and what's not, we'll just have to seek rulings on them as they arise. Personally I'd prefer these types of effects to be ruled the same way as they are in the other LCG's and I've argued for them to be so, but a decision has been made that they're not going to be, so it is what it is.


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#32
dbmeboy

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@PBrennan - As I know Erik explained to you, how similar wordings were later ruled in different games has no relevance to established rulings in this game.  For Star Wars: The Card Game (which is the game we are discussing here, not Conquest), "enters play" refers to the transition of a card from an out of play state to an in play state.  This happens during the resolution (step 6) of either an effect that puts a card into play or playing a unit or enhancement.

 

If I were to use Infiltration with Wedge, the following sequence occurs:

 

Step 0: I am going to play Infiltration

Step 1: It is currently during an engagement.  I have a Character unit in hand that could be put into play

Step 2: The cost will be 1 resource, which must include a Rebel resource

Step 3: Nothing is modifying the cost

Step 4: I focus a resource-providing Rebel card

Step 5: No targets involved

Step 6: I choose to put Wedge into play.  Wedge is not entering play as he is going from an out of play location (my hand) to in play.  Wedge has text that allows him to enter play as an Enhancement, which applies now.  As this is card text vs card text, Wedge is able to overrule the choice specified by Infiltration and come in as an Enhancement instead.

 

This is how Infiltration works with units with Pilot (x):

 

Step 0: I am going to play Infiltration

Step 1: It is currently during an engagement.  I have a Character unit in hand that could be put into play

Step 2: The cost will be 1 resource, which must include a Rebel resource

Step 3: Nothing is modifying the cost

Step 4: I focus a resource-providing Rebel card

Step 5: No targets involved

Step 6: I choose to put Farlander into play.  Farlander is now entering play.  He has rules text connected to his keyword that allows the player controlling the effect to choose unit or enhancement when a card effect puts him into play.  This would normally apply here.  However, per the Golden Rule, the card text takes precedence over the rules text and forces you to choose to have Farlander enter as a participating unit.



#33
PBrennan

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I know they have no relevance. My post was designed to outline what the difference in ruling was, so that those who play multiple LCG's can understand that difference (and confirm that they have deliberately been ruled differently) and be able to play correctly.



#34
dbmeboy

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I know they have no relevance. My post was designed to outline what the difference in ruling was, so that those who play multiple LCG's can understand that difference (and confirm that they have deliberately been ruled differently) and be able to play correctly.


Fair enough. As nice as it would be to have some rules uniform across the games, I can certainly understand sticking with established rulings in older games even if similar situations are interpreted differently in the newer games. You either have a situation that's confusing to players coming from the other games or you change rulings, which is confusing to players already familiar with the ruling for this game.

#35
mikado

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What a mess... is it still possible to play a unit with pilot cost "as enhancement" but still put it into play as unit...?

#36
BobaFett

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What a mess... is it still possible to play a unit with pilot cost "as enhancement" but still put it into play as unit...?

I don't believe you could ever do this.  If your paying the pilot cost to put a unit into play as an enhancement, you were never able to put it into play as a unit at that point.  

 

Its not really a mess anymore, because of an earlier ruling things got a bit murky but now that the rulling/s were reversed, i think its pretty clear at this point.



#37
dbmeboy

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What a mess... is it still possible to play a unit with pilot cost "as enhancement" but still put it into play as unit...?


As BobaFett said, this was never possible. Pilot (x) allows you to select unit or enhancement when a card effect puts the pilot into play, when you're playing them you select at step 0 whether they're being played as a unit or enhancement and can't change that later.

#38
Raxar

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I don't understan because Luke Hoth and Wedge Antilles can't play as enhancement wiht a Hero's Trial

 

In marshalling phase:

 

Step 0: I am going to play Luke Hoth as pilot

Step 1: I have a Speeder unit in play.

Step 2: The cost will be 4 resource, which must include a Jedi resource

Step 3: The Luke text reduce the cost to play this card by 2 if it is played as an enhancement. The new cost is 2, which must include a Jedi resource

Step 4: I focus a resource-providing Jedi card and another resource.providing card.

Step 5: Target the Spedeer unit.

Step 6: I put Luke Hoth into play. as an Enhancement.

 

Is Correct?

 

With "A Hero's Trial" I could not do the same but in conflict phase?



#39
dbmeboy

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Luke and Wedge's old wording allowed them to be played as an enhancement. Their errata wording though only allows them to enter play as an enhancement (kicks in step 6, not step 0). Thus they cannot be played using Hero's Trial.

Luke's cost reduction text doesn't strictly work... It's a case of not enough room on the card to word it appropriately so it works because it's obvious that that's how it's supposed to work.

#40
Raxar

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Luke and Wedge's old wording allowed them to be played as an enhancement. Their errata wording though only allows them to enter play as an enhancement (kicks in step 6, not step 0). Thus they cannot be played using Hero's Trial.

Luke's cost reduction text doesn't strictly work... It's a case of not enough room on the card to word it appropriately so it works because it's obvious that that's how it's supposed to work.

 

I understand this point, but the obvious is something very relative. I understand the explanations and the logic because can´t play wedge o Luke with Hero's Trial. But i don't understand this difference is generated between cards with pilot(x) and Wedge and Luke Hoth when it is obvious that they should work equalty

 

I think the reason for the Wedge and Luke errata, was so they could play like new pilots and , ultimately, have only managed to generate more doubts and confusion about how they play and generating illogical situations( Luke should not be able to reduce their cost and enhancement because when you play as enhancement, has already passed the time to pay the cost ... )

Would not be more logical a new errata giving them a keyword pilot ( x ) and including that can only be played on a specific car ?

 

PD: Sorry for the english, but not is my Native Language, and i used google translate for this post.