149 replies to this topic

[holliday88]

[dbmeboy]

Stay on Target (0702/0712) reads: “You may put a Pilot card into play from your hand or discard pile as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” And the pilot (X) keyword rules state: “When a card with the pilot (X) keyword is put into play by a card effect, the player resolving the effect chooses whether it enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement."

 

While the pilot rules do generally permit a player to make a choice as to how a pilot card enters play, effects like Stay on Target dictate how that choice must be made. This is a situation in which the Golden Rule (card text takes priority over rulebook/rules sheet text, rulebook page 11) trumps the rules text in the pilot (X) keyword and forces one particular choice to be made when the Pilot card enters play. The important point is that such an effect uses a construction starting with “as” (“as a participating unit,” “as an enhancement,” etc) following the “put into play” text. Currently, there are only 3 of these types of effects (Infiltration, Stay on Target, and DS-61-3).

 

This ruling is a reversal of the previous Stay on Target ruling, and also reverses the ruling on Infiltration (0575) as that card uses a similar wording to Stay on Target. (Infiltration reads: “...…put a Character unit into play from your hand as a participating unit on your side. …”) This means that if you play Infiltration and choose a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword, the unit you choose must end up in play “as a participating unit on your side.” Furthermore, if you use Stay on Target, the chosen Pilot card must end up in play “as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” These two effects, and any similar effects that uses an “as a {SOMETHING}” phrase, dictate a manner in which the card must enter play, which—because of the golden rule that gives priority to card text—the pilot (X) rules will not override.

 

Other effects that put units into play that do not have such “as an…” phrasing that dictates the manner in which the card enters play, however, can still interact with the pilot (X) rules. For example, the Millennium Falcon(0332) says “…put a Character or Droid unit into play from your hand.” In this case, if you put a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword into play using the Millennium Falcon’s text, you would have the choice of whether that unit enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement. This is because the Falcon does not dictate the manner in which the card must enter play, only the conditions it must meet in order to be chosen to put into play.

--

Erik Dahlman
LCG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

[Bungo]

Awesome! good work FFG!

[hundreds]

Annnnnnd there was much rejoicing.

 

I will now get back on the bike with you.

 

[yodaman]

That seems like a very sensible ruling.    Good work FFG for addressing this so quickly. 

[Majestaat]

JUSTICE -and whining- PREVAILS!

[Scottie]

Golden Rule wins out even in cases where the card text is more restrictive then what the rules normally allow. Even though the most common application of the Golden Rule allows you to do things you normally can't.

[dbmeboy]

Golden Rule wins out even in cases where the card text is more restrictive then what the rules normally allow. Even though the most common application of the Golden Rule allows you to do things you normally can't.

Yep.  It was just overlooked in the initial ruling on Infiltration (which never really caused a problem so nobody looked harder at it) and then when the "case law" from Infiltration was applied to Stay On Target and lead to funny business it was re-evaluated.

[Letux]

Now we just need the Luke objective ruling or the Han event tweaked.

[hundreds]

Now we just need the Luke objective ruling or the Han event tweaked.

 

Specifically how?

[dbmeboy]

From what I could gather, there are no plans to change the Hero's Trial ruling.  We'll see if they address the infinite Hobbie loop proactively or use the months between GenCon and Worlds to see if the meta can handle it.

[hundreds]

Sorry for being daft, but what exactly was the Hero's Trial ruling? It changed? What was it before?

[dbmeboy]

Sorry for being daft, but what exactly was the Hero's Trial ruling? It changed? What was it before?

It was originally ruled that it could not be used to play a pilot (as an enhancement), but was reversed upon follow up questioning.

[hundreds]

OK, so currently, you can play a pilot card from hand using Hero's Trial as an enhancement or as a unit?

[Jarratt]

OK, so currently, you can play a pilot card from hand using Hero's Trial as an enhancement or as a unit?

As an enhancement. It plays the enhancement so the 2nd part of the pilot keyword doesn't come into play.

Tbh it's only a problem for Hobbie and only because an upcoming card makes him free.

While I don't agree with the ruling, in this case it doesn't actually seem counter intuitive. If you can play a pilot as a pilot or an enhancement then most people would just assume Hero's Trial works. So it's probably good in that regard.

With most pilots you can do what you would do with Hero's Trial anyway and create surprises. It's only Hobbie and Rogue X's that create a bit of a problem.

Given that the final pack won't be available for Gencon I think you'll only see a change to one of the 4 parts of the combo in the next FAQ if they deem it to be bad for the game. (Which I think it is. it's exactly on par with Fett and Training Procedures)

[yodaman]

I think just as an enhancement

[dbmeboy]

Correct, just as an enhancement.

[MonteKev]

good deal, thanks to all involved.

[SeeThreebilbo]

 

Stay on Target (0702/0712) reads: “You may put a Pilot card into play from your hand or discard pile as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” And the pilot (X) keyword rules state: “When a card with the pilot (X) keyword is put into play by a card effect, the player resolving the effect chooses whether it enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement."

 

While the pilot rules do generally permit a player to make a choice as to how a pilot card enters play, effects like Stay on Target dictate how that choice must be made. This is a situation in which the Golden Rule (card text takes priority over rulebook/rules sheet text, rulebook page 11) trumps the rules text in the pilot (X) keyword and forces one particular choice to be made when the Pilot card enters play. The important point is that such an effect uses a construction starting with “as” (“as a participating unit,” “as an enhancement,” etc) following the “put into play” text. Currently, there are only 3 of these types of effects (Infiltration, Stay on Target, and DS-61-3).

 

This ruling is a reversal of the previous Stay on Target ruling, and also reverses the ruling on Infiltration (0575) as that card uses a similar wording to Stay on Target. (Infiltration reads: “...…put a Character unit into play from your hand as a participating unit on your side. …”) This means that if you play Infiltration and choose a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword, the unit you choose must end up in play “as a participating unit on your side.” Furthermore, if you use Stay on Target, the chosen Pilot card must end up in play “as an enhancement on a target friendly Vehicle unit.” These two effects, and any similar effects that uses an “as a {SOMETHING}” phrase, dictate a manner in which the card must enter play, which—because of the golden rule that gives priority to card text—the pilot (X) rules will not override.

 

Other effects that put units into play that do not have such “as an…” phrasing that dictates the manner in which the card enters play, however, can still interact with the pilot (X) rules. For example, the Millennium Falcon(0332) says “…put a Character or Droid unit into play from your hand.” In this case, if you put a Character unit with the pilot (X) keyword into play using the Millennium Falcon’s text, you would have the choice of whether that unit enters play as a unit or as a Pilot enhancement. This is because the Falcon does not dictate the manner in which the card must enter play, only the conditions it must meet in order to be chosen to put into play.

--

Erik Dahlman
LCG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

I can breathe again!

[Queklaine]

As an enhancement. It plays the enhancement so the 2nd part of the pilot keyword doesn't come into play.

Tbh it's only a problem for Hobbie and only because an upcoming card makes him free.

While I don't agree with the ruling, in this case it doesn't actually seem counter intuitive. If you can play a pilot as a pilot or an enhancement then most people would just assume Hero's Trial works. So it's probably good in that regard.

With most pilots you can do what you would do with Hero's Trial anyway and create surprises. It's only Hobbie and Rogue X's that create a bit of a problem.

Given that the final pack won't be available for Gencon I think you'll only see a change to one of the 4 parts of the combo in the next FAQ if they deem it to be bad for the game. (Which I think it is. it's exactly on par with Fett and Training Procedures)

Does the infinite loop work now with heros trial if you have the locations in play that reduce pilot cost down to zero where hobbi is free?