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Pervasive Toxemia + Mi-Go Warrior = Story Lock?

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#41
Yipe

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I received a response from Damon regarding the Mi-Go Warrior + Pervasive Toxemia combo.  Here's what he wrote:

 

"Characters are committed all at the same time, and you can cancel an opponent's wounding which would prevent them from being able to commit to stories."

 

Yes indeed folks, as long as you can keep it on the table, Mi-Go Warrior + Pervasive Toxemia is a story lock.


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#42
dboeren

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Daaaannggg.  Looks like my Mi-go/ST deck is getting a tune-up.


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#43
Yipe

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Same here!  It also answers the question about repeatedly failing to commit/re-wounding August Lindquist in the same turn.

 

My suspicion is that before Worlds something will get restricted or errataed in this combination.



#44
NuFenix

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Just make the wound from Toxemia unable to be prevented or replaced. Easy and I doubt anyone will complain.

#45
dboeren

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Agency Medic is probably the best of the rest.  There are a couple cards that can grant Invulnerability to an opposing character which could work in limited circumstances.  Agency Bodyguard if your opponent's guys are Unique.

 

But yes, I would not be surprised at all if Mi-go Warrior got changed to only cancel a wound on a character you control.



#46
Obtuse

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There's also Teodor Somesuch in agency too. Best way to fix this is with errata to Toxemia, not the cards that prevent wounds if we're going the errata route.
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#47
Nightmare588

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I received a response from Damon regarding the Mi-Go Warrior + Pervasive Toxemia combo. Here's what he wrote:

"Characters are committed all at the same time, and you can cancel an opponent's wounding which would prevent them from being able to commit to stories."

Yes indeed folks, as long as you can keep it on the table, Mi-Go Warrior + Pervasive Toxemia is a story lock.


Pritty sure this just killed it for me. Any game that allows for this kind of janky card combos that utterly and purposfully break the game structure is just not a game I want to play anymore. Tuts neat little trick knocked me out of my top 8 chance and while I dont begrudge him for it, Im really dissapointed that this kind of thing is allowed to be a thing.

Thanks to everyone, especially the Ohio guys and gals, that gave Josh and I a place to play for the last year or so. Call has, hands down, the best community I have ever seen for a card game...guess its not you, its me.
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#48
dboeren

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While your decision is your own, I kind of feel like you should give FFG an opportunity to react to these two brand new issues as both are potential candidates for errata.

 

Also, while you may consider Damon's answer as saying "yes, this is OK", that's not what it means.  When he says that this is legal, he's saying that as the rules are currently written, this is legal.  He's not endorsing it, he's telling you what the rules say today.  He doesn't get to pick the answer of whether it's legal, he has to follow the rules just as we do.  What he CAN do that we cannot is issue an errata, but there has not been sufficient time for this to occur.

 

FFG isn't going to rush into a hasty change, they're going to consider both of these issues, along with probably others they're looking at, and they will issue a new FAQ document when they're ready and feel they've worked through all the implications of the changes they want to make.


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#49
Daevar

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I wonder why there's so much doom and gloom about this combo.

 

Sure, it's great once set up (but it's also a 3-cost character, mind you), but the warrior has no terror, is no Ancient One, has to be ready, in short: In can be dealt with in a plethora of ways.

 

I mean, Negotium has been around for quite a long time and if you don't have some high cost characters out, your story phase looks pretty much like it does when your opponent has Pervasive/Mi-Go Warrior on the table. Meanwhile getting rid of Negotium completely is pretty hard, while dealing with that 3 cost, 1C, 3 Skill character disables the story lock immediately.

 

I don't see the world ending with it. Like, at all.

 

And the possibility for change is still out there, wouldn't have been the first time, far from it. That's what the FAQs/Erratas are for.


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#50
dboeren

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Outside of this combo Mi-go Warrior is terrible.  Even Mi-go themed decks don't normally take him.


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#51
Nightmare588

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I will, of course, be keeping any eye on the faq for changes, and id be stupid to get rid of my cards. but this is not the first time this has happend and it wont be the last.

I am simply taking the advice of our reigning National Champion and considering that this might not be the game for me anymore. I cannot change the game back to a game of horror, stories, and outmanuvering. Only FFG can do that. If they wish to make the game more into what I enjoy, ill be pushing people over to give them my money. If not, oh well, ill spend my money elsewhere.

Oh who am I kidding? Ffg will still get my cash, just not for CoC.

#52
washme

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I echo Nightmare. I know some of you guys defend this, and others get enjoyment from doing this to others. This isn't any fun. It's not what the game was meant to be. I'll wait until they errata this and Orobourus before coming back. I don't see any merit in playing like this. You can't slap a label of "competitive" on it and expect others to swallow it. At least I know I'm not alone in leaving because of this. Way to drive away a new player. Cheers.

#53
Yipe

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I agree with dboeren and wouldn't make any hasty decisions just yet.  Damon's response was simply clarifying the rules as they stand right now.  I didn't expect, nor would I want, FFG to make a hasty errata or other change to the game.  Having said that, I believe the issues surrounding Pervasive Toxemia will be addressed before Worlds.  Perhaps that's just me being overly optimistic, but that's my gut feeling in this case.

 

As for the comparison to Negotium, I think the situations are quite different.  First, Mi-Go Worker and Xlizxcte-Oonth have made playing and keeping a 3-cost Mi-Go character on the table incredibly easy.  Add in Mi-Go Observer and you're almost guaranteed to have more than 1 copy of Mi-Go Warrior in play at any time.  Yes, you can remove Mi-Go Warrior, but if you don't get rid of Xlizxcte-Oonth, it's coming right back.

 

Negotium can be worked around by having a few solid 3-cost characters in your deck.  If for whatever reason you don't have any 3-cost characters, you can still go to Negotium and do something with your story phase.  Mi-Go Warrior + Pervasive Toxemia completely denies your opponent an integral part of the game's play experience (one I would argue is the heart and soul of the Cthulhu LCG).  It might seem like doom and gloom, but I feel people are appropriately worried that any combo exists in the game that removes the primary reason to play it in the first place (see Glimpse of the Void).


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#54
washme

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That's why I said I'd keep my eye out for the errata/faq. Other people are better at conveying my thoughts than I am. Yipe summed up my feelings well. Thank you.

#55
Wilbur

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Once I found a spider in my shoes. I concluded that they weren't the right shoes for me, and I've been searching for something comfortable ever since.

On the spectrum of ignorant over-reaction, this is an 11. Seriously: if you didn't have fun getting your ass handed to you at your first real tournament, maybe do what others have done, and work on improving. I agree that Ohio does it right.
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#56
Obtuse

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I echo Nightmare. I know some of you guys defend this, and others get enjoyment from doing this to others. This isn't any fun. It's not what the game was meant to be. I'll wait until they errata this and Orobourus before coming back. I don't see any merit in playing like this. You can't slap a label of "competitive" on it and expect others to swallow it. At least I know I'm not alone in leaving because of this. Way to drive away a new player. Cheers.

 

When you say things like "way to go, cheers" it sounds incredibly childish. I'm sure had you smoked the Uroborus deck you'd be here telling us what a great time you had. I don't say this to insult you, and I hope you can take it as some tough love, but I find your behavior in this thread unseemly and I'm choosing to call you on it. Against my better judgement really.

 

About the Uroborus deck...it's frankly just not that good. I'm sure looking at it in the vacuum of your one match against it it looks crazy and unbeatable, but the fact of the matter is it went 3-2 and finished in the middle of the pack. Also I'm fairly certain it was the only deck of it's kind at the tournament...it's not like there was a plague of Uroborus decks just wrecking everything in sight. I was playing this deck locally for a little while and eventually scrapped it because it wasn't good enough to win a tournament, and I actually do play to win tournaments. The last FAQ did make it a little better so Tut decided to give it a whirl against my cautions that it was too unreliable. He finished about where I predicted....middle of the pack. I talked to Tut about your match and it sounds like you had a slow start. Like, a REALLY slow start. That's about a death sentence for any deck. The ironic thing here though is that if you were holding Matthew Alexander you had a hard counter to all of the deck's character bouncing shenanigans. 

 

For Washme, Nightmare and the rest of you who are complaining the CoC has devolved into nothing but combo and lock decks you're all ignoring the elephant in the room. Tom's 40some character elephant of a deck. Tom won with about the single most conventional strategy I can think of: put a lot of bodies down on the board and dog fight it out at the stories. This was the deck that won Nationals. A dog fighting rush deck. Not a crazy infinite loop Uroborus deck or a Toxemia lock down deck.

 

If you all feel you gotta quit, quit. I still think this game is absolutely awesome. The freedom in deckbuilding, the sheer variety of deck types out (rush, control, combo, aggro, mill, hand destruction, and more!) there that are capable of winning...it's just bad ass. The community is fantastic and I've found no shortage of people helping me and my other Ohio guys improve. Despite a few differences, I'd sit down and have a beer and play some matches and talk shop about cards, factions, cool combos, or whatever with anyone here on these forums. I'm sorry that you guys feel differently about the game but as far as I'm concerned your complaints are falling on deaf ears here.

 

See you all at Worlds. Or not. 


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#57
MagnusArcanis

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I feel the need to clear up some things here.

 

1. I'll stand by my advice of, if you're not happy with the game you're playing, play a game that makes you happy. It's kind of the point of gaming. All the best wishes, but please kindly do not deter others from enjoying the game.  

2. I feel that the notion that the game has lost it's horror, stories and outmanauvering way of life is FALSE. The game still has this, with or without combos and wonky rulings. 

 

The Call of Cthulhu card game is an ultra deep game. With a wide range of game play and deck building options. Decks that 'break the rules of the game' are common and have been apart of its charm and appeal since its inception. 

 

However, those "break the rules" decks/cards sometimes get out of hand. However, nearly every time, FFG has righted the ship by using the FAQ to bring the game back to it's very delicate balance. I may disagree with some decisions but Damon and FFG are dedicated in bringing you the best gaming experience they can. 

 

That being said, I agree with Wilbur's overall point. Uroborus and Toxemia while troubling... aren't nearly as bad as some people are making this out to be. 

 

Granted, maybe I'm being naive, but I just don't see the earth shattering difference between these any other archetype. Normal decks CAN defeat both of them. Sure, some strategies won't work, but.. all decks have weaknesses no? Sure, they require a little bit of tech to defeat, but so does every other deck/strong card right?

 

Guys are acting like this is the yithian mill all over again and the sky is falling. lol. While I view them above the line of troublesome, if I were to put them on a scale, they're weaker than the Logan combo but stronger than R&D.

 

To help put that in perspective, R&D was a hyper-efficient aggro deck with a ton of synergy. While it accelerated the game into an uncomfortable speed, it was barely worth hitting it with the FAQ. The logan combo was a "just a bit too consistent for out tastes" instant win combo deck with a common win turn of 2-4 that required 3-4 cards (getting hard to remember these things haha).

 

Uroborous is a turn 4-7+ combo win/lock deck that requires a minimum of 7 cards to pull off. Toxemia is a 2-card repeatable small combo causing an opponent to not attack OR not defend. 

 

If deemed a bad thing for the game, I have confidence that Damon will act appropriately just as he and other members of FFG have always attempted to do. Frankly I fully expect that to be the case and plan to play future games assuming that they will be adjusted.

 

In the meantime, I feel that Tut should be rewarded for playing niche deck and trying to make something of it, not condemned. I feel that HomerJ should be thanked for bringing up what I believe to be a crack in the rules so that it can be fixed before it hits a major tournament not made to feel guilty for bringing it to light.

 

It's funny, there's usually a FAQ adjustment post worlds. Usually it's to nerf the top decks in the tournament. Yet, no one cares that the most basic decks possible (without support removal no less) won the tournament and 2 of the top 4 decks had Ultimate Thule and Hall of Champions with the 4th being a Toxemia deck that didn't use Mi-Go's. 

 

So, tell me again how things are just sooooo bad? haha. In all seriousness, yes, there is some trouble on the table, but this is not rage quit level trouble. I'm glad you guys are going to keep an eye on the FAQ before making a hasty decision. That's smart. In the meantime, I certainly recommend continuing to play (as long as it makes you happy), but make some slight adjustments to your deck(s) to address your local meta. I have a STRONG feeling that once anyone seeking to abuse these two combos is thoroughly trounced again and again... the deck types, if they show up at all, will leave your local meta. Only people I feel bad for are those having a National championship before the next FAQ. But, if there is one, I'm willing to bet neither Uroboorus or Mi-Go Warrior wins it.  Just sayin.


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#58
Greynomad38

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Tom, you essentially said what I wanted to say but not only beat me to it but said it better.  The only thing I would add is that, for me, the real pleasure of the game is in having a local meta.  Ours has some very good players but for the most part, we're casual and just play for fun.  The Yithian mill was never a thing we pursued locally because we enjoy pursuing our own path.  And the card pool of CoC offers a large playing field.  



#59
Jhaelen

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I wonder why there's so much doom and gloom about this combo.

 

Sure, it's great once set up (but it's also a 3-cost character, mind you), but the warrior has no terror, is no Ancient One, has to be ready, in short: In can be dealt with in a plethora of ways.

Well, the Mi-Go Warrior is now an obvious target for Shocking transformation. You won't get any prior warning. It'll all happen in a single turn, and unless you already have your answer in hand, and have the free domain to play it, there won't be anything you can do for at least a single turn.

 

Many of of my recent decks included 'Foiled' just to get rid of Negotium. Now it's more important than ever to get rid of Pervasive Toxemia. But you cannot play it as a reaction, so there's always a single turn you'll lose. That's already half-way to a game-win for your opponent.



#60
Corwin81

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I have to agree with the interpretation that you can only cancel the first attempt with the mi-go warrior.

Toxemia says: choose and wound a character you control in order to commit to stories. So it simply poses a condition you must meet before committing.

So either the "gatekeeper" is, taking the action of wounding a character (regardless of the outcome of the wound being inflicted or not) - I don't believe this, but the mi-go warrior would be useless.

Or the "gatekeeper" is, choosing a character you control and actually getting it wounded.

In that case, nothing says you are allowed to attempt it only once, and nothing says you have to choose a different character everytime.

I believe this is the correct interpretation and ... the mi-go warrior is useless again - just re-target the same character to take the wound, mi-go will be exhausted already.

 

The response from Damon is completely absurd for me as Toxemia does NOT impose to meet the condition simultaneously to the the commitment of characters.

If there's any doubt they should add "... commit to stories this turn" to Toxemia's text.

I also have a huge problem with rulings being made by a single guy, without proper consultation of the community of expert players on the impact - or at least it feels like it.

They should try to avoid the "God Syndrome" at FFG.

What doesn't help is getting answers like this so quickly and through informal channels - it's actual counter productive.

 

That being said I wouldn't consider leaving CoC just for something like this - EVERY card game has very strong combos aiming at derailing the normal course of the game for asymmetrical advantage. MTG had many, many broken combos but the variety of archetypes (rush, tempo, control, combo...) never really died.

 

In the end, I must say that to enjoy competitive play with card games, you have to accept to face unpleasant decks often. As long as they have not been utterly dominating a format for months, it's OK. But then nothing forces people to play competitive. Just play casual with your friends and have your own rulings and restricted lists.

That's what I do most of the time, and it's at last as rewarding as a tournament for me.


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