15 replies to this topic

[admiralacf]

I have a couple of questions about the specifics of the Dornish Paramour's ability.  That ability reads:

 

 

Reaction: After Dornish Paramour is declared as an attacker, choose a character controlled by the defending player. That character must be declared as a defender for this challenge, if able.

 

Can the ability target a character that does not have a challenge symbol for the type of the current challenge?

 

Can the ability target a kneeled character?

 

Thanks for your help!

[Darryl]

I think the key part of the ability is if able. If a character does not possess the icon and cannot kneel to be declared as a defender that character will not be able to participate. You could choose that character but nothing would happen. Per the learn to play book page 9: In order to be declared as a defender, a character must have a challenge icon that corresponds with the type of challenge that is currently underway, and that character must be standing.

[ktom]

Best Answer

(Thanks for including the card text! Helps a ton!)

 

Note that if it were not for the "if able" text, you would have to choose a character that was able to be declared as a defender (i.e., standing and has the right icon) because normally, you cannot trigger an ability that has no ability to change the game state.

 

As worded, though, Dornish Paramour allows you to choose characters that are not eligible defenders at the time she is declared as an attacker, but could possibly become eligible (for example, gains an icon or is the target of a standing effect) before defenders would be declared. That "if able" greatly changes the character and usefulness of the card!

[ingsve]

(Thanks for including the card text! Helps a ton!)

 

Note that if it were not for the "if able" text, you would have to choose a character that was able to be declared as a defender (i.e., standing and has the right icon) because normally, you cannot trigger an ability that has no ability to change the game state.

 

As worded, though, Dornish Paramour allows you to choose characters that are not eligible defenders at the time she is declared as an attacker, but could possibly become eligible (for example, gains an icon or is the target of a standing effect) before defenders would be declared. That "if able" greatly changes the character and usefulness of the card!

 

Ok, that clears up a question I went here to ask actually. It seems that people are declaring the chosen character as a defender right away when it gets targeted by the Paramour rather than waiting for the declade defenders framework action window to declade defenders. So in practice if the Paramour chooses for example Margaery Tyrell (Challenges action: Kneel Margaery Tyrell to choose a character. Until the end of the phase that character gets +3 STR) as the target, you could use Margaerys ability to boost another character in the action window before defenders are declared and thus make her unable to be declared as a defender, is that correct?

 

Also what caused the question was also how the Paramour interact with an effect like Highgarden. From what I remember when I last played there was a rule that whenever there were no longer any participating characters in a challange the challenge ended then and there before defenders could even be declared which meant you couldn't declade defender and win on defence if there were no longer any attackers unless you waited until after defenders were declared to remove the attacker. Am I remembering that correctly? At any rate that seems to no longer be the case? Since the RRG states that a challenge is considered resolving until step 4.2.6 and it doesn't mention any exceptions to that rule as far as I have found. So that mean you can now remove or kill all attackers and then still be able to declare defenders and win on defence?

 

Also what happens with the lasting effect of the Paramour of she is removed from the challenge before defenders are declared? If the challenge still resolves which it seems it still does then the chosen character will still have to be declared, if able, I'm guessing?

[istaril]

Yup, there's no "challenge ends if there are no participants" clause like there was in 1.0, so the challenge, once initiated, proceeds inexorably to it's conclusiion (4.2.6), unless a card effect tells you otherwise.

 

The lasting effect of the paramour happens regardless of whether she is participating in the challenge at that point - once resolved, it creates the lasting effect even if the paramour were to leave play. Removing her with Highgarden doesn't retroactively mean she never applied her ability.

[ingsve]

Yup, there's no "challenge ends if there are no participants" clause like there was in 1.0, so the challenge, once initiated, proceeds inexorably to it's conclusiion (4.2.6), unless a card effect tells you otherwise.

 

The lasting effect of the paramour happens regardless of whether she is participating in the challenge at that point - once resolved, it creates the lasting effect even if the paramour were to leave play. Removing her with Highgarden doesn't retroactively mean she never applied her ability.

 

Thanks. That's an important change to know about. I'm guessing this might be part of the reason why Stealth was changed to happen when the attacker is declared as well. If stealth worked like it used to then you coould remove the attacker with stealth and still defend and win on defence. Now if you attack with stealth but the attacker gets removed I assume it works like the Paramours lasting effect and you can still not defend with a character chosen by the stealth ability. That's also important for the Night Watch faction to know since they are keen on winning on defence.

[ktom]

Look at it this way:

 

Pretend that Dornish Paramour instead said, "Reaction: After Dornish Paramour is declared as an attacker, choose and kneel a character controlled by the defending player."

 

If Dornish Paramour was removed from the challenge after triggering her ability, would you expect to be able to stand the knelt character? No, of course not. The lasting effect is no different. The lasting effect continues to its natural end point, just like the kneel stays in place until something stands the character.

[ingsve]

Look at it this way:

 

Pretend that Dornish Paramour instead said, "Reaction: After Dornish Paramour is declared as an attacker, choose and kneel a character controlled by the defending player."

 

If Dornish Paramour was removed from the challenge after triggering her ability, would you expect to be able to stand the knelt character? No, of course not. The lasting effect is no different. The lasting effect continues to its natural end point, just like the kneel stays in place until something stands the character.

 

Ya, the question about Highgardens interaction mostly came about because I assumed that the old rule that the challenge ended with the Paramour being removed was still in effect at which point the lasting effect would fizzle. I was just checking to see that there was nothing that would fizzle the lasting effect anymore with the new rules.

[admiralacf]

Thank you all for the replies.  So just to clarify the original intent of my question and what I'm gathering is the answer, you're saying that I can choose a kneeled (knelt?) character and/or one without the correct challenge symbol, but that doing so does not override the requirements (kneeling and having the correct icon) for participating in a challenge.  Therefore the effect in this case would do nothing unless the target character somehow stood and/or gained the necessary icon between the triggering of the ability and the declare defenders step of the current challenge.  Is that correct?

 

Thanks again!

[ingsve]

Thank you all for the replies.  So just to clarify the original intent of my question and what I'm gathering is the answer, you're saying that I can choose a kneeled (knelt?) character and/or one without the correct challenge symbol, but that doing so does not override the requirements (kneeling and having the correct icon) for participating in a challenge.  Therefore the effect in this case would do nothing unless the target character somehow stood and/or gained the necessary icon between the triggering of the ability and the declare defenders step of the current challenge.  Is that correct?

 

Thanks again!

 

Yes, that is correct.

[ktom]

Another way to look at it: Dornish Paramour says that if the character can defend, the defending player must declare it. But it doesn't have any impact on whether the character can or cannot defend in the first place.

[Buzz]

 

Yup, there's no "challenge ends if there are no participants" clause like there was in 1.0, so the challenge, once initiated, proceeds inexorably to it's conclusiion (4.2.6), unless a card effect tells you otherwise.

 

Does this mean that if:

1. Player 1 declares an attacker.

2. Player 2 removes the attacker from the challenge.

3. Player 2 declares a defender.

4. Player 2 wins the challenge and can trigger appropriate reactions, claim power for renown etc.?

[istaril]

Sure, but for most practical purposes, that's not that different from first edition - the only difference is in 1.0, you had to wait until you declared a defender to get rid of the attacker in order to win the challenge.

[ingsve]

Sure, but for most practical purposes, that's not that different from first edition - the only difference is in 1.0, you had to wait until you declared a defender to get rid of the attacker in order to win the challenge.

The difference now is that if the defender chooses not to defend the challenge the attacker could jump a new attacker into the challenge after defenders are declared (but weren't) and win unopposed if there was ever a card like Horseback Archers or The Knight (TOS). That was not possible before when the challenge ended right away.

[zomba69]

"After Dornish Paramour is declared as an attacker, choose a character controlled by the defending player. That character must be declared as a defender for this challenge, if able."

 

But what if I decide as defending player, not to defend at all (unopposed challenge)? My character is not able to defend because I am not defending at all.

[Khudzlin]

You have to declare the chosen character if it is eligible to defend the challenge. You can't let it go unopposed, because it's not a separate decision.