32 replies to this topic

[imrahil327]

Jorah says:
Forced Reaction: After you win a challenge in which Ser Jorah Mormont is participating, place 1 betrayal token on him.

 

Catelyn says:

While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, your opponents cannot trigger card abilities.

 

 

Catelyn and Jorah are in a challenge, and Jorah wins.

 

Are Forced Reactions a game action that must resolve and is not 'the player' triggering it? Or does Jorah not get a token?

[ojimijam]

Best Answer

She doesn't stop forced reactions, they are not triggered by an opponent but by the game.check the catelyn thread a few for more.

[istaril]

Ojimijam has it - also, see the unofficial FAQ thread stickied in his forum.

[Grimwalker]

I'm not sure this is correct. I can't find in the RRG where Forced Reactions are anything but one particular type of Triggered Ability. I'll poke around, but right now I'm not quite feeling certain.

[ktom]

Check the bit about the order of two or more forced effects initiating at the same moment being determined by the First Player. (RRG p. 8).

 

If Forced Interrupts/Reactions were triggered by players, they would never be initiating at the same moment. So they must be triggered automatically whether the player wants them to or not (like "When Revealed" effects on plot cards).

[Grimwalker]

That's an interesting interpretation. I'm sure that the Rules As Intended is that all of this should work exactly the way that it's being interpreted, I'm just having trouble that we don't have it stated explicitly in the RRG, we're having to read between the lines of other sections. It's something I'd like to have explicitly stated in the FAQ. This notion of "the game is doing it" seems to be an extrapolation--I can just as easily read the relevant rules as the controller triggering the ability, just that he or she doesn't have the option not to.

[ktom]

I can just as easily read the relevant rules as the controller triggering the ability, just that he or she doesn't have the option not to.

 

OK. Then why don't they happen in the normal player order for triggering abilities, then?

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to see it formally clarified in an FAQ. I'm just disagreeing that one interpretation is as easily made as the other.

[palpster]

That's an interesting interpretation. I'm sure that the Rules As Intended is that all of this should work exactly the way that it's being interpreted, I'm just having trouble that we don't have it stated explicitly in the RRG, we're having to read between the lines of other sections. It's something I'd like to have explicitly stated in the FAQ. This notion of "the game is doing it" seems to be an extrapolation--I can just as easily read the relevant rules as the controller triggering the ability, just that he or she doesn't have the option not to.

I have to agree with this

[Bomb]

If it weren't for threads like these, I would have interpreted Catelyn preventing Forced triggered abilities from triggering as well.

[palpster]

OK. Then why don't they happen in the normal player order for triggering abilities, then?
 
I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to see it formally clarified in an FAQ. I'm just disagreeing that one interpretation is as easily made as the other.

Because that is what is written about Forced Reactions....I don't see why this would rule out that it is still the player triggering his/her ability. Just because the "when" is different does not HAVE to mean that it is someone or something else that does the triggering.

Again, I also agree that it is PROBABLY intended that a Forced Reaction is not an ability triggered by an opponent, but I believe that it is not as clear in the RRG currently and it needs to be adressed in FAQ.

[HOROBOD]

The text on Forced Interrupts/ Reactions states that the ability must be resolved whenever the triggering condition occurs, with no mention of player initiation.

 

“While most triggered abilities are optional, some interrupt and reaction abilities are preceded by the word “Forced.” Such abilities must be resolved immediately whenever the triggering condition specified in the ability text occurs.” (RR8)

 

I think you are confusing the term “Triggered Ability” with player initiation. Nothing about triggered abilities makes them inherently initiated by the player. Notice that “When Revealed” abilities also classify as Triggered Abilities.

 

 â€œA triggered ability is any ability with a boldface precursor followed by a colon and the rest of the ability. This includes actions, phase specific actions, interrupts, reactions, forced interrupts or reactions, and when revealed abilities.” (RR22)

 

 

 

Consider the following sequence on “Triggering Condition” (Found in entirety RR22)

1. triggering condition becomes imminent

2. Interrupts referencing the imminent "would" occur may be used (Saves/Cancels)

3. "Forced interrupts to the imminent triggering condition must resolve, in the order determined by the first player."

4. "The interrupt window to the imminent triggering condition opens, and closes after all players consecutively pass."

5. Triggering condition itself occurs

6. "Forced reactions to the triggering condition must resolve, in the order determined by the first player.

7. "The reaction window to the triggering condition opens, and closes after all players consecutively pass."

 

 

“Within the interrupt window, the first player always has the first opportunity to initiate an eligible interrupt (to this triggering condition), or pass.” (RR10)

 

The only mention of interrupts being initiated by a player is “within the interrupt window”

The same is true for reactions. “Within the reaction window, the first player always has the first opportunity to initiate an eligible reaction (to this triggering condition), or pass.” (RR17)

 

In summation:

Forced Triggered Abilities, we are told, must be resolved when the triggering condition occurs. There is no mention of player initiation of triggered abilities, except within designated “windows”. And as Ktom mentioned we have text indicating that these Forced Abilities may trigger simultaneously (just like a When Revealed effect) precluding them from being player initiated. Although not explicitly stated that Forced abilities are not initiated by the player, there is no evidence that a Forced Ability would be initiated in by a player in the first place. I hope this helps answer your question and keep triggered abilities and player choice clear.

[Staton]

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living, Horobod?

[ktom]

Because that is what is written about Forced Reactions....I don't see why this would rule out that it is still the player triggering his/her ability. Just because the "when" is different does not HAVE to mean that it is someone or something else that does the triggering.

 

It doesn't necessarily rule it out, but it does inspire a huge follow up question. Specifically, why would these be the only player-initiated abilities in the game that the first player gets to dictate? In absolutely no other situation does the first player get to tell any other player when they can trigger their effects. Such a large departure from the established player priority rules surely needs something more than, "because I said so"?

 

As Horobod very elegantly outlines, unlike 1.0, "player choice" is not synonymous with "triggered ability." The idea that all triggered abilities are triggered specifically by players, by choice is a left-over from 1.0. In more than a few ways, "forced" effects in 2.0 take the place of "passive abilities" in 1.0.

 

Undoubtedly -- it could be specifically stated in the rules or an FAQ that "forced abilities are not considered to be triggered by the player controlling the card." But the fact that such specificity is missing from the rules documents doesn't necessarily translate to the other interpretation (that they are consciously triggered by the player) being equally supported by the text.

[Slio9]

If it weren't for threads like these, I would have interpreted Catelyn preventing Forced triggered abilities from triggering as well.

 

Same, especially seeing as Nate's other LCG (Star Wars) works the exact opposite in that players initiate forced effects so they can be stopped. (I know, I know, different game)

[PBrennan]

Can you point me to where in the SW FAQ/rules it say it works oppositely, or to a ruling? Thx.

[Grimwalker]

Same, especially seeing as Nate's other LCG (Star Wars) works the exact opposite in that players initiate forced effects so they can be stopped. (I know, I know, different game)

 

Well, they've said as much that they've learned more about LCG design with recent projects, so it stands to reason that other games could be looked at for background knowledge.

 

 

 

It doesn't necessarily rule it out, but it does inspire a huge follow up question. Specifically, why would these be the only player-initiated abilities in the game that the first player gets to dictate? In absolutely no other situation does the first player get to tell any other player when they can trigger their effects. Such a large departure from the established player priority rules surely needs something more than, "because I said so"?

 

All we have, just from the rules themselves, is "because Nate said so." We know from other descriptions in the RRG that Forced Reactions/Interrupts are "faster" than anything else in the game, so fast they're simultaneous. 

There's no difference in the rules as printed between reading it as "the opponent must trigger" a forced ability and "the opponent may trigger" a regular card ability.

[Grimwalker]

(double post deleted)

[HOROBOD]

There's no difference in the rules as printed between reading it as "the opponent must trigger" a forced ability and "the opponent may trigger" a regular card ability.

The biggest problem with your argument is that these phrases don’t occur in the rulebook in any form. There are exactly zero references to an opponent or player, of any kind, initiating a Forced Ability. Rather, the rulebook states that they “must be resolved immediately whenever the triggering condition specified in the ability text occurs” (RR8).

 

 

The burden of proof lies on the player who uses Catelyn’s ability. This player would have to show that the other player cannot initiate their triggered ability. There is no mention in the rules of players initiating any Forced Abilities. This means Catelyn’s ability cannot stop Forced Interrupts/Reactions from occurring.

[Grimwalker]

I know they're not direct quotes from the rulebook, that's why I qualified it with the phrase "reading it as." The phrase "triggered by the game" doesn't appear either. But there *is* mention of players using card abilities and everywhere I look, Forced Interrupts and Forced Reactions are specified as being entirely within the Venn Diagram of Interrupt and Reaction card abilities, which are used by players.

The argument that they should be outside the circle of their general ability types seems to hinge on their different timing. I think that's getting into Rules-As-Intended interpretation. I don't doubt their interpretation is correct, but I don't see it strongly justified by what's been put forward. It needs to be in the FAQ.

[HOROBOD]

But there *is* mention of players using card abilities and everywhere I look, Forced Interrupts and Forced Reactions are specified as being entirely within the Venn Diagram of Interrupt and Reaction card abilities, which are used by players.

It is true that Force Interrupts and Forced Reactions are a subset of Interrupts and Reaction card abilities, but go back and read these sections in the rules, and again you'll see that there is NO mention of these being inherently initiated by a player.

 

The timing thing is only a minor supporting argument. The main argument is that you are reading player initiation into card abilities, and triggered abilities, where there is zero president for them. The only mention we find of player initiation is actually within a subset of abilities that use the word "may" and are used within specific "windows".

 

In addition to these points, you haven't addressed the burden of proof that is present on the player using Catelyn. Since there is no text describing Forced Abilities as being player initiated, she cannot prevent them from triggering. In this way a FAQ explicitly stating that Forced Abilities are initiated by the game actually isn't even necessary within the current card pool.