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Its combo time

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14 replies to this topic

#1
Zephyr

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This game has many interesting card interactions. Some are so good they can carry a deck, some just add a nice boost to cards that are already good and some seem great on paper but are hard to make use of in an actual game. I think its fun to share and discuss some of those.

Like the idea i got recently how to make bad card amazingly good:
Those Without Faces (TSotS)
The King In Yellow Folio (LR)
Jiang Shi (CotJE)
don't know if it would actually work, but changing every struggle to T and discarding opponents cards for it seems really nice
Guardian Beast (TSS)
and hasturs cancels
could protect and add another struggle
would probably need nexuses for using Shi more


Ancient Guardian (Core)
Things in the Ground (SoA)
My mate used that against me, simple but really nice

Dedicated Butler (TOotST)
Ritual of the Lance (TOotST)
Lodge Defenses (ER)
Needs a ton of weird cards on the table but its so scary.

Parallel Universe (TTftS)
Fugitive Scientist (THBtS)
1 skill wins it all you stupid monsters :P

#2
Yipe

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Re: Parallel Universe and Fugitive Scientist

I believe Fugitive Scientist's ability only applies to skill resolution when checking to see who succeeds at a story, and doesn't negate an opposing character's skill during the icon struggles.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the game can come along and reference a ruling.

#3
Tragic

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I believe Fugitive Scientist's ability only applies to skill resolution when checking to see who succeeds at a story, and doesn't negate an opposing character's skill during the icon struggles.


I am not expert, but if that was the case I think it would say "printed skill" not "skill".. there are many effects that trigger off values on the cards (X).. and some effects trigger from printed X and some from X. X is able to be modified, while printed is not...

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#4
Zephyr

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Both cards say "count skill" It doesn't affect characters skill in any way, so other effects are untouched. Printed vs not printed is completely not an issue here. ( The Oubliettes (TOotST) and other low skill attacking cards shut this down though)

Parallel universe - instead of icons count skill.
Fugitive - when counting skill you need to have I icon or your skill will not count.
There is nothing about final count on the card and both cards are from the same series, so i say they are supposed to interact.

I see completely no reason for this not to work... whats your argument? If only "i didnt see that coming" that's not an argument... or am i missing some rule with this one?

#5
Hellfury

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Re: Parallel Universe and Fugitive Scientist

I believe Fugitive Scientist's ability only applies to skill resolution when checking to see who succeeds at a story, and doesn't negate an opposing character's skill during the icon struggles.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the game can come along and reference a ruling.


It's definitely a question to ask Damon to be sure, as on the one hand you essentially count skill only during resolution, but on the other hand skill has been calculated in other ways a lot more as the pool grows. I am inclined to side with Zephyr's understanding of the interaction though.

I will say card interaction has changed A LOT during the changes in designers for the game.

For example, Damon and I discussed how the numerous stories work like Dreamwalkers (Core). Apparently I have been playing this card wrong for years. James Hata sides on if you won this story and it is your only won story and your opponent has won one story that it would be only your opponent that shuffles their story card back into the story deck. But Damon Stone believes that both players must shuffle a won story card into the deck. So Damon went to Eric Lang and asked him and as the tie breaker Lang decided that it was as Damon believes.

It is stuff like this that makes me question the very fundamental knowledge I have of the game after playing a card like this wrong for so long. How many games have I won or lost because of this? It is both humbling and frustrating at the same time.

#6
Zephyr

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Both cards say exactly the same "count skill" so i don't really see the problem, if there was even a slight difference in wording i would not be so sure.

Other cards are much worse. (Like this story, hmm I've also been playing it wrong...) For me its FFG screwing up really hard... if you write a card in a way that makes game designers wonder what it means and give players no way to find out your doing it really, really wrong.

How hard is it to write a few sentences for every card on how its supposed to work and put them on some site, like this site for example under card entry and make it "official FFG supported fansite".

Dominion did explain their cards in rulebook in detail and it didnt hurt.

Sure you will not cover all interaction, but if the basic effect is ambiguous wording is really horrible.

#7
Tragic

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@Zephyr... I always thought that any time it says count skill or icons.. it is always talking about the modified value afetr any other card effects like attachments or abilities to steal or slice of icons... or w/e and that you ONLY use the printed value if it used the keyword printed?

Like Mr. David Pan (CotJE) combos with Clover Club Torch Singer (Core) as Clover Club Torch Singer (Core) can modify the skill of the other player, BUT if Mr. David Pan (CotJE) said "printed skill" this combo would not work?

Isn't that correct?

#8
Zephyr

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Yes, but my combo didn't include singer (my deck on this mechanic actually does) and i just don't see much sense discussing printed mechanics if there is trouble with the combos idea (and Scientist + Parallel doesn't refer to printed in any way...)

Yes usually Scientists ability is only important at the last step of story resolution - skill counting.
But if parallel changed every struggle to skill counting i dont see why would Scientist suddenly stop to work?

#9
Tragic

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I must be dense.. .Parallel Universe (TTftS) counts the total skill of the characters... yes? But it counts the modified value not the printed cost.. that is right yeah?

#10
Yipe

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I see completely no reason for this not to work... whats your argument? If only "i didnt see that coming" that's not an argument... or am i missing some rule with this one?


I remember reading this somewhere. I'll email Damon again for an answer.

By the way, saying "I didn't see this coming isn't an argument" is a bit snarky. We're all Lovecraft fans here, so let's keep it civil.

Before you make such statements, how about getting all the facts. For example, in our regionals I played a Mr. David Pan skill reduction deck with Parallel Universe, and I had included Fugitive Scientist for a while for exactly this reason (Brazen Hoodlum does the same). I took him out when I was told his ability didn't work that way. If it does, so much the better. Either way, we'll find out soon enough.

#11
Yipe

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While waiting for Damon's official ruling, here's the evidence I came up with to support my statement (this was the same info I was told when trying to use this combo a few months back):

FAQ 2.1, Page 8, section 2.34 "Counting Skill"
Some effects reference counting skill or not counting skill. These effects do not change the actual numbers on the card. They only mean that the skill is counted or not counted during the skill comparison at the story."

This would suggest that characters without an (I) going up against Fugitive Scientist still count their skill during the icon struggles as Fugitive Scientist's ability is only applied at the skill comparison.

#12
Yipe

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And here is Damon's response:

"Fugitive Scientist disallows any skill on a character without an investigation icon to count their skill at the same story he is committed, regardless of why they are counting their skill. Normally the only time a character counts their skill would be during the skill check, but Parallel Universe creates a condition where that skill is counted to determine the winner of every story struggle as well."

So the combo works. That's good news for my deck!
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#13
Jhaelen

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I already tried to build a deck around Those Without Faces for the recent Regionals but discarded the idea again after a bit of playtesting. It's interesting but not as effective as other methods of milling your opponent's deck, particularly in an environment where some decks rely on using 'Glimpse of the Void' to skip the story phase.

#14
Zephyr

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Against glimpse Hastur seems to be a good candidate as hes the only fraction with cancel. And pure glimpse needs some other means of milling so maybe your mill with this as a bonus would work. Dunno - didn't play against any glimpse deck and didn't even try this one combo in actual deck...

About ruling on skill - i would be really surprised if it didn't work; but having official confirmation is nice

And general note: no one else wants to share his interaction ideas? I wanted this thread to be "more brainstorm weird and potentially good ideas" thread. It is really fun to see what crazy interactions are there in this game.

[edit]
About rulling discussion - this is what drives me crazy about this game. They cant maintain a reasonable rulings that are accessible... this is simply FFGs fault and really i cant be calm when i talk about it.
I know this game is complex, but still having a per card FAQ that makes asking, answering and searching easy is not too much to ask. I did upload FAQ here in like 3,4 days. FFG could setup or work with fan sites to do just that...

And their bullshit approach of "if its a complicated result of 97 FAQ entries we will not clear this up", and having cards that need experienced players discussion to get what this card even does. One paragraph of comments from designer for every not obvious card would clear that up in no time. They have STORY CARDS that appear in EVERY GAME and still make EXPERIENCED players play them wrong... and REPEAT this wording on ALL 3 SERIES of stories...

FAQ being a complete mess with statements about similar things scattered randomly and no clear structure of where to find what.
I tried clearing it up and did this:
http://students.mimu...aqPlaintext.htm
and found an entry that refers to effect that does not exist in the pool...

#15
Hellfury

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And general note: no one else wants to share his interaction ideas? I wanted this thread to be "more brainstorm weird and potentially good ideas" thread. It is really fun to see what crazy interactions are there in this game.


I was going to share, but you already posted the idea I would have posted.