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Action after using Fealty?

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Best Answer ktom , 25 August 2015 - 05:33 AM

You're right. I didn't understand your question. Sorry about that.

 

Yes, the Tyrell player will have a chance to trigger an action between the Targ player triggering Fealty and triggering Dracarys!.

 

However, when the Targ player triggers Fealty, he doesn't have to reveal, indicate or otherwise tell the Tyrell player what he will be using the cost reduction on - if anything. He is just simply triggering Fealty. And once the Tyrell player triggers Margaery, the Targ player is not obliged to actually play anything if he doesn't want to. He can just let Fealty's reduction effect expire at the end of the phase.

 

So yes, on the one hand, if the Targ player has no gold and kneels Fealty, the Tyrell player has a chance to guess that Dracarys! is about to come and trigger Margaery to protect their only attacker. At that point, though, the clever Targ player could play Fire and Blood instead, not play anything during the current challenge and use Dracarys! later in the phase on a different participating character, or not play anything - because he always intended to use Fealty as a bluff to make the Tyrell player waste Margery's ability.

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5 replies to this topic

#1
Zigur

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Situation:

Attached File  GoTRulesQ.PNG   592.15KB   1 downloads

 

Targ fealty is FP.  Tyrell declares a MIL challenge with Wardens of the Reach.  Targ has no gold to cast Dracarys!, so Targ kneel his/her faction card to reduce Dracarys!'s cost to zero.  

 

My question is: does the Tyrell player then have priority to take an action in order to use Margaery to pump Wardens and save it from the Dracarys! burn?  My understanding is yes Tyrell would be able to, since once the FP's action resolves (as well as any cancels, interrupts, and reactions, with FP having priority in each case), priority shifts to Tyrell.

 

EDIT: the picture is a board state I made up for illustrating my question.



#2
ktom

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Well....

 

You seem to have the basics of timing correct, but not the outcome of the situation.

 

After Dracarys! resolves, along with its associated interrupts and reactions, the next player would indeed have the chance to play an action. It's not that "priority shifts" (in fact, priority doesn't shift in that the FP still has priority for all Interrupts and Reactions) - it's just that it is the next player's turn to trigger an action.

 

What you seem to be forgetting, though, is that when the STR of Warden's of the Reach is calculated as Dracarys! resolves, it's STR is below 0 so it dies. Since the character dies when Dracarys! resolves, it leaves the table before you ever get to the point of the next player being able to trigger something. Heck - it dies before you ever get to the point of triggering reactions to Dracarys! (since reactions are triggered after whatever they are reacting to resolves).

 

So no, Tyrell cannot use a STR pump like Margaery after Dracarys! is played if the -4 takes the target character to 0 STR or less because the character dies immediately. There is no delay between resolving Dracarys! and calculating the character's STR, finding it is 0, and killing it. The next player's opportunity to trigger an action comes too late; the character is already dead!

 

The only way to save from Daracrys! is with a card that both saves and increases the character's STR above 0 as part of the same effect (like Risen from the Sea) - which means it will have to be an Interrupt (since all saves are Interrupts).



#3
Zigur

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Well....

 

You seem to have the basics of timing correct, but not the outcome of the situation.

 

After Dracarys! resolves, along with its associated interrupts and reactions, the next player would indeed have the chance to play an action. It's not that "priority shifts" (in fact, priority doesn't shift in that the FP still has priority for all Interrupts and Reactions) - it's just that it is the next player's turn to trigger an action.

 

What you seem to be forgetting, though, is that when the STR of Warden's of the Reach is calculated as Dracarys! resolves, it's STR is below 0 so it dies. Since the character dies when Dracarys! resolves, it leaves the table before you ever get to the point of the next player being able to trigger something. Heck - it dies before you ever get to the point of triggering reactions to Dracarys! (since reactions are triggered after whatever they are reacting to resolves).

 

So no, Tyrell cannot use a STR pump like Margaery after Dracarys! is played if the -4 takes the target character to 0 STR or less because the character dies immediately. There is no delay between resolving Dracarys! and calculating the character's STR, finding it is 0, and killing it. The next player's opportunity to trigger an action comes too late; the character is already dead!

 

The only way to save from Daracrys! is with a card that both saves and increases the character's STR above 0 as part of the same effect (like Risen from the Sea) - which means it will have to be an Interrupt (since all saves are Interrupts).

 

I think you are misunderstanding my question. I agree that you can't pump to "save" from Dracarys! once it is played unless you have an interrupt that raises strength out of Dracarys!'s kill range.

 

In the circumstances pictured above, Targ has to use the Action on the Fealty agenda in order to have money to play Dracarys!. This means that using Dracarys! will take TWO actions. So my question is after Targ's FIRST action, which reduces the cost of the next non-loyal card, does priority "shift" to Tyrell to enable him/her to preemptively pump with Margaery to avoid the outcome described in your post? Wardens' strength will still be reduced, but it wouldn't hit zero.



#4
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

You're right. I didn't understand your question. Sorry about that.

 

Yes, the Tyrell player will have a chance to trigger an action between the Targ player triggering Fealty and triggering Dracarys!.

 

However, when the Targ player triggers Fealty, he doesn't have to reveal, indicate or otherwise tell the Tyrell player what he will be using the cost reduction on - if anything. He is just simply triggering Fealty. And once the Tyrell player triggers Margaery, the Targ player is not obliged to actually play anything if he doesn't want to. He can just let Fealty's reduction effect expire at the end of the phase.

 

So yes, on the one hand, if the Targ player has no gold and kneels Fealty, the Tyrell player has a chance to guess that Dracarys! is about to come and trigger Margaery to protect their only attacker. At that point, though, the clever Targ player could play Fire and Blood instead, not play anything during the current challenge and use Dracarys! later in the phase on a different participating character, or not play anything - because he always intended to use Fealty as a bluff to make the Tyrell player waste Margery's ability.


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#5
Zigur

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Yeah, that's why I was asking - the timing structure opens up a wide range of mind games for the Targ player. Thanks!



#6
smeehee

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as a point of interest the targ players can get around this by kneeling house card for fealty as a pre-challenge action (in the challenges phase but before any challenges are initiated)

or they could kneel there house card just to provoke this very action