250 replies to this topic

[Zeetro]

Don't use roseroad and use western fiefdoms instead. -1 Littlefinger and you've got room for Varys.

Well Fiefdoms for Roseroads is a straight swap. What to cut for Varys?

[PulseGlazer]

Don't use roseroad and use western fiefdoms instead. -1 Littlefinger and you've got room for Varys.

Without Roseroad, Varys is harder to play.

[jstrong77]

Without Roseroad, Varys is harder to play.

After many games over only been unable to get Varys out when i wanted him once, and it wasn't an issue having risked would have solved. In Fealty, 3x Fealty uses up the previous neutral slots so I sub in western fiefdoms and have rarely regretted it.

[Zeetro]

After many games over only been unable to get Varys out when i wanted him once, and it wasn't an issue having risked would have solved. In Fealty, 3x Fealty uses up the previous neutral slots so I sub in western fiefdoms and have rarely regretted it.

I think Glazer's point is one of gold economy. Fiefdoms do nothing for playing neutral cards, like Varys, but Roseroads do.

[PulseGlazer]

I think Glazer's point is one of gold economy. Fiefdoms do nothing for playing neutral cards, like Varys, but Roseroads do.

 

 

This, especially given the posted plot lineup.

[Zeetro]

This, especially given the posted plot lineup.

What's wrong with the plot lineup? It has 3 Gold focused plots.
Edit: To elaborate, A Noble Cause can get Varys out. And Calling the Banners should reliably get you Varys out. When you want Varys, your opponent will have characters out.

[Barnie25]

I played a few games against a Targ Lanni deck yesterday but got roflstomped every game by bad setups and my opponents always having Drogo out.

The deck has tremendous problems handling Drogo, I never seem to find any cheap military icon and relying on Tywin isn't always that reliable. A lot of games I had Put to the Sword in hand and no mil icons on the board.

How have you guys been handling cards like Drogo outside of Milk, Varys helps but his Drogo was either duped or with Bodyguard every game. I haven't really enjoyed playing Lannister, their topend is strong but there early game is absolutely horrid.

[sparrowhawk]

I understand the early military beatings can be demoralising until you realise that after a reset you have more cards than him. Every deck is different but speaking from very limited experience, Drogo is fine - Tears and Milk, latter temporary of course. In fact, because Targ have to win 2 military challenges kneeling their military dudes, I've even had just Tyrion, Margaery and 2 gold left and ended up Put to the Sword Drogo with a Burned Man as he had used his military dudes for his attacks on me.

 

Playing Lannister is not for everyone's taste because you often have to absorb the attacks, take some losses and then reset with counter-attack (just as they were losing every battle against Stark but won the War, as Robb complained). Even though they have taken 1.0 Targ's ambush mechanic (which is more thematically suited for Lannister), they strangely play true to the books (even to extent of ambush arrival with their Tyrell banner at Blackwater). The old Lannister package could be very tempo, kneeling stuff for temporary openings for claim wins (they had no Lockdown like Stannis). Initially I disliked new Lannister but now I've grown to like them even more. They will come of age with First Snow. Weak and tricksy has always appealed as an archetype.

 

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@Zeetro.

 

Sorry I didn't answer your question, unintentionally rude - it is really easy to ignore a subforum (like I do Conquest mostly now, and I've neglected Melee for sometime now). Yesterday, my focus was on main forum. Hey, multi-tasking is not my strong suit.

 

I LOVE The Hound because these "jumper" cards synergise with your reset strategy. You can play him to win that power challenge (with all the great INT synergy, Power gets neglected in Lannister) and return him, safe from Tears (and Milk), and next turn Wildfire Assault (which is so Nedly, running away from the impending fire). The option to keep him in play for a steep cost (random but sometimes your reserve is too small with Lannisport, extra INT attacks and Pycelle) is gravy. STR matters, he bypasses stealth so can actually win in defence vs. Balon + Kraken stealth! He can even be used just to prevent +5 MIL against you and stay on the table. He doesn't make Hear Me Roar playable yet but he's a keeper for sure.

 

Cersei's Wheelhouse - this is difficult because in my opinion, there are many times when you want to go first as Lannister,

 

* have 1 gold left after marshalling to terrify opponent when he plays his Kingsroad

 

* collect gold from Tyrion - so you can ambush later, especially a claimsoak like Gold Cloaks. Sometimes it's even simpler - you are going to lose if he goes first despite your Wildfire so you leave 4 gold unspent at end of marshalling, INT attack for 2 gold and then Things I Do For Love their Balon with 5 renown on him just as the opponent triumphantly over-commits with Scout pumps on Balon after you've blocked (they shouldn't cockily attack solo).

 

* free MIL attack with Jaime and still have him to defend MIL (as you have INT sewn up usually)

 

* attack Targ in INT with Tyrion, trigger his gold and stealth Dany then have first opportunity to play Widow's Wail on him before she can burn him, now you've a shot of removing a threat from their hand. If you're doing it with Cersei adding Widow's Wail with Tyrion gold, it's nastier,

 

My general rule is Lanni does want to go second, especially if their build has go second cards like Tears and Milk. Except when you get Tyrion or Jaime out (latter dependent on board size) when there's often good reason to go first - and in other edge cases where first player action priority is crucial.

 

It's like Bara Fealty - starts off go second build (Milk, marshalling phase kneel) but when you have Bob and Stannis out, go first can be near Lockdown with Initimidate. You also have first action window for cards like Seen In Flames to remove their Confinement of Mel etc.

 

So this go second / go first depends on

1. your build and appraising your opponent's build (he's playing Aggro Fealty with Put events, bet no Milk)

2. cards on the table (examples above of Robert, Jaime) and how they interact with challenge phase plays

3. your vulnerability to claim

> i) will his military claim decimate your counter-attack?

> ii) will his intrigue claim remove a crucial card in hand?

> iii) will his power claim (and renown/unopposed) win him the game? (This is a tad important...)

 

After the excellent deck types episode, I was a bit disappointed by The White Book follow-up that promoted "Go Second". Experienced top players like them (admittedly Kennon was more guarded) gave far too simplistic advice. I see some new players suddenly recite this "go second is best" mantra like it's holy writ. Jeez, do you really think the game is so simple? It depends on so many factors and I feel that segment was slightly irresponsible making it seem like a black-and-white decision. Often it is, but it's never always one way or the other.

 

So back to Wheelhouse: the problem I have is it disempowers your choice. You are spending 1 gold and 1 card to have less initiative control. So on the third turn after you play it, you are in profit if you have been first player every turn. It's not for me.

 

I think there are a lot of cards designed for Melee (Calm over Westeros, A Clash of Kings, even Hear Me Roar) that because of a lack of card pool, we are considering them for Joust. Some are passable (Bastard Daughter like Weymar Royce is amazing leverage in melee but good in Joust too). Cersei's Wheelhouse is the typical deterrent non-threatening melee card that means you will never be given the poison chalice of first player. I think trying to fit it in Joust is a mistake unless {a} your deck is totally tuned to go second so you use it as a deterrent, {b} your deck is tuned to go first and you have high initiative plots to offset -1 when you use it as an augmenter or {c} the meta far prefers to go second when you give opponents a difficult choice.

 

It's definitely an interesting design (because it's not straightforward and I still haven't puzzled it out) so kudos to the design team.

[Barnie25]

How do you have more cards? Sure you intrigue them but Lanni's draw is average at best I have found. They really have trouble keeping a healty number of characters on the board and that reset can either be countered (Treachery out of the Targ deck) or be anticipated and have dupes or bodyguards at the ready. I think people are overstating the strength of Lanni, they surely are strong but they arent the paragon that some people make them out to be, they don't have good synergy outside of being efficient, have bad early drops that you either don't want to have die (Moneylender) are unique (tickler) or are mono-cons.

 

Maybe I just had some bad experiences but I am not so sold on them as other people.  

[sparrowhawk]

Rushing for Halloween so gonna be a quick phone post.

Here's a simplistic example. Just claim 1 plots.

Targ have Drogo and Plaza.
They win POW to kill chud, then win 2 MIL, don't dare attack INT (Lannisport draws in defence)
Lanni -3 cards (lowest value)

Lanni have Lannisport and Casterly or Informant (I play Rose)
They win 2 INT
Lanni +2 cards (random value), Targ -2 cards (random value)

So taking into account 2 random card draw each, end of turn Lanni is +1 card (cycling 3 lowest value cards for 4 random cards) and Targ is +0 (cycling 2 random cards for 2 random cards).

The only issue is the opening choke point between cards in hand becoming cards in play - economy. This if solved means you can also leverage military choice vs intrigue random disruption benefit.

What about the fact I have to keep replenishing my board whilst Targ's board can grow? That I may not be able to hit a card with INT due to empty hand? That's where resets come in. Suddenly you're net up cards in hand on an equal high quality board. Or probably higher quality because in the example, you cycled lowest quality for random whilst opponent cycled random for random.

Of course I am discounting Power in all this, Renown etc. I'm also discounting cards both have to help like Cersei, Pycelle and Dany. It's a simplistic example to demonstrate relative card advantage.

Yes, Targ is difficult. And Targ Lion is a slow build with its high end stars and so are you so you will have to take a faster approach. Wildfire is key played as late as possible as they can only have 3 stars in play at once. All I refuted was Drogo was a problem when he is Tears fodder. Targ Fealty is easier than Targ Lion because the latter have Lanni star cards in it, immune to Tears. I've never played Lanni/Any vs Targ Lion so concede your observation.

I also think there's a definite playstyle thing with certain builds and certain players. In Magic, as a Draw Go permission control player, friends laughed when they saw me play Aggro because tempo benefits of Aggro are alien to someone more used to drawing the opponent's poison, using the game's distance to victory metric (life, power) as a buffer resource then take control to comeback win.

Also we're comparing very tiny samples here based on relative player competences. It may well be that you are right and Lanni desperately needs Brothel Madams and such. All I am explaining here is Relative Card Advantage (I'm sure you know it so please forgive any condescension).

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Here's a topical example from another house using similar intrigue approach - the recently spoiled Bastard Daughter.

So for 2 gold, I can block MIL so no unopposed, trade that card for a random card and I am able to trigger lose challenge benefits like Sunspear. Sounds good to me.

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In an intrigue based build, as long as your economy can afford to move cards from hand to board to maintain your board presence, there are generally better benefits in random intrigue claim over chosen military claim. Add resets to board (none to hand so far beyond reserve cap that you adhere to keep board presence to pursue your strategy) and you got advantage intrigue - in theory.

This is why Core Set has 3 neutral MIL triggers to 1 neutral INT trigger and reserve and bouncing attachments and no mass reset plot, all mechanics to make the Core Set experience "more about the challenges" (a crappy phrase they wheel out to say we are playing in an Aggro meta like TLV) and less about Relative Card Advantage (because any game with strong control does not help sell a mainstream game, eg the dull game you can have playing against Bara Lockdown).

The biggest harm they've done to the intrigue game is the rubbish economy we have, the higher cost curve and lack of non-limited economy and lack of Limited choice. Once the economy valve is loosened, intrigue will come of age because control outpaces on economy and stalls for reset then leverages their better economy.

It is an elegant game design that beautifully captures the hidden off-board threat of cards held back ("I've won every battle but I'm losing the war" - Robb). They are just (rightly) scared of control.

[Zeetro]

http://thronesdb.com...-or-you-die-1.0

My Lannister Fealty with the new cards.

Does anyone else think Varys is needed and if so, how to fit him? It has been suggested to change Roseroads for Fiefdoms for the neutral slots but what to take out for the deck space?

[Barnie25]

Does anyone else think Varys is needed and if so, how to fit him? It has been suggested to change Roseroads for Fiefdoms for the neutral slots but what to take out for the deck space?

 

I dont believe in Lanni Fealty, they need too many neutrals to properly function. They are blessed with powerful cards but are cursed with the fact that they have little synergy and are really top-heavy.

 

They will be a good Fealty house in the future though, but at the moment they aren't there yet.

[Zeetro]

I dont believe in Lanni Fealty, they need too many neutrals to properly function. They are blessed with powerful cards but are cursed with the fact that they have little synergy and are really top-heavy.

They will be a good Fealty house in the future though, but at the moment they aren't there yet.

I was inclined to Fealty because in my first draft of the build I only had 18 neutrals. Cutting 3 to get Fealty seemed worth it. Also, others said to add cards that my other deck (Stark Fealty) used, namely Put to the Sword. I rather leave my Stark Deck alone (my favorite house). I think a NA build without PttS is feasible but everyone will say it is suboptimal. I might try it. More Neutral slots in NA can allow like to thrown in an Iron Throne with Support of the People as a silver bullet against Bara's Dominance game.

Tangent question: If people support the No Agenda build so much, how do people feel about the Frey Agenda (pic attached) that will come later in this cycle?

EDIT

How's this for NA? It doesn't have the single Iron Throne I mentioned above as I don't want to cut Lannisport or Casterly Rock to just one for it. I would also like to fit Bodyguards but I like my event package as it is.

You win or you die

House Lannister / No Agenda

Plots
1x A Game of Thrones (Core Set)
1x A Noble Cause (Core Set)
2x Calling the Banners (Core Set)
1x Confiscation (Core Set)
1x Marched to the Wall (Core Set)
1x Wildfire Assault (Core Set)

Characters
2x Littlefinger (Core Set)
2x Varys (Core Set)
2x Cersei Lannister (Core Set)
2x Grand Maester Pycelle (Core Set)
2x Joffrey Baratheon (Core Set)
3x Ser Jaime Lannister (Core Set)
1x The Tickler (Core Set)
3x Tyrion Lannister (Core Set)
3x Tywin Lannister (Core Set)
2x Burned Men (Core Set)
3x Gold Cloaks (Core Set)
2x Lannisport Moneylender (Core Set)
3x Lannisport Merchant (Core Set)
2x The Queen's Assassin (Core Set)
2x The Hound (Taking the Black)

Locations
3x The Kingsroad (Core Set)
3x The Roseroad (Core Set)
2x Casterly Rock (Core Set)
2x Lannisport (Core Set)
1x Cersei's Wheelhouse (Taking the Black)

Attachments
2x Milk of the Poppy (Core Set)
1x Widow's Wail (Core Set)

Events
3x Tears of Lys (Core Set)
2x Hear Me Roar! (Core Set)
2x The Things I Do For Love (Core Set)
3x Treachery (Core Set)
2x Support of the People (Taking the Black)

Attached Files

•  image.png   259.41KB   0 downloads

[VonWibble]

I think that agenda will be a better choice than Banner of the Lion.

Firstly, you often get extra challenges, so the deck should already be built with that in mind. When an opponent knows you have 4 potential challenges, they will often be in a position where it is best for them to leave one unopposed. Make that your first challenge.

Secondly, that +2 str boost makes it even easier to trigger win by 5+ effects.

[Zeetro]

Sorry to bring this up again as I only read the opinions of 3 people but having success with Fealty Lannister?

I know Lannister No Agenda is in vogue (in part to a certain podcast ). I'm admittedly a newbie, but the way I see it, unlike a few factions, every loyal card in Lannister is good and are all playable. Getting to play them a bit cheaper isn't a bad thing. I already hear some of you say that "15 neutrals aren't enough", but the 15 neutral slots can be played around with thanks to Lannister's in faction economy.

[chem2702]

Sorry to bring this up again as I only read the opinions of 3 people but having success with Fealty Lannister?

I know Lannister No Agenda is in vogue (in part to a certain podcast ). I'm admittedly a newbie, but the way I see it, unlike a few factions, every loyal card in Lannister is good and are all playable. Getting to play them a bit cheaper isn't a bad thing. I already hear some of you say that "15 neutrals aren't enough", but the 15 neutral slots can be played around with thanks to Lannister's in faction economy.

When I first started playing months ago, one of the first decks I built was Lanni NA (before it was "in vogue"). My reasoning was simple. I built my Lanni deck the way I wanted it. It had 20+ neutral cards in it, which meant I was going to have to swap out 5+ neutral cards I wanted for Lanni cards I didn't want as much if I was going to run Fealty. It was as simple as that. I did try Fealty for a while as well, but including cards such as Casterly Rock just didn't cut it when compared to running Milk x3, Tears x3, Bodyguards, Seal of the Hand, Varys, Littlefinger, Put to the Sword and Hand's Judgement.

[Alexfrog]

I ocntinue to feel that Lanni NA should cut its 12 worst cards and become Lanni/X, where X is whatever banner fits in best. 

 

I often play more than 15 neutrals in my banner decks!  because I only pick the 12 best non-loyal cards of the banner faction.  Essentially you are playing NA but you can upgrade the 12 worst lannister cards you are playing with the 12 best nonloyal cards of a faction of your choice.  There pretty much has to be SOME way that this is an improvement.

[chem2702]

I ocntinue to feel that Lanni NA should cut its 12 worst cards and become Lanni/X, where X is whatever banner fits in best. 

 

I often play more than 15 neutrals in my banner decks!  because I only pick the 12 best non-loyal cards of the banner faction.  Essentially you are playing NA but you can upgrade the 12 worst lannister cards you are playing with the 12 best nonloyal cards of a faction of your choice.  There pretty much has to be SOME way that this is an improvement.

 

Yeah it can be, but what generally happens is the cost curve goes up a little and the ambush guys get cut. I like ambush.

[Alexfrog]

Yeah it can be, but what generally happens is the cost curve goes up a little and the ambush guys get cut. I like ambush.

I like Ambush but I hate Gold Cloaks.

[chem2702]

I like Ambush but I hate Gold Cloaks.

 

Yeah Gold Cloaks aren't amazing, but they are still decent enough for the time being. And the Queen's Assassins can be quite devastating if ambushed in at the right time.