20 replies to this topic

[GKZhukov]

What are people's initial thoughts? As much fun as Joust is, Melee is the USP of AGoT after all, and the thing it has over Netrunner, Conquest etc. Plus there's that side event at Worlds.

 

I figure...

 

Baratheon - Weaker than in Joust. Still okay, but tends to accumulate power steadily which means it'll get knocked down as it approaches its endgame. Can't kneel the whole board either. Will probably have to run 3 x Superior Claim. Getting Dom for Painted Table also gets considerably harder.

 

Greyjoy - Probably a top tier choice for Melee. Just as Bara can't kneel everyone, GJ can't kill everyone. However, unopposed becomes really easy. Finding a good location to burn and steal becomes easier too. Will probably want to keep the game small through plots. They also benefit a lot from the Mil role, the Power role and the card draw role. Finishing the game if folk gang up on them might be the tricky part and will require careful plot and role use. That said, Great Kraken and unopposed via Stealth can blitz it, especially with Superior Claim. Forget the 1st Player malarkey. It doesn't do that much for Core GJ anyway.

 

Martell - Much stronger than in Joust. Can pull off that "win from nowhere" that is a crucial part of melee. Slow accumulation gets hammered, but being ignored and then pulling 7 power out of the bag can work wonders. Punishes opponents for attacking it, which acts as a kind of nuclear deterrent. Sure Ghaston Grey is one-shot, but who wants to be the player who has to take that shot? It's the classic one man with a gun at close range vs three guys. If the three guys rush him, he will go down, but the first of the three guys to step forward is the one who dies.

 

Targ - Can't kill everyone, but like Martell can deter challenges with threats. Fealty probably works best for them, just because the Dracarys threat is no longer dependent on gold. Lots of ways for Drogo/Dany to be hit in Melee, but attachment removal, stand effects, and Dany being a weak milk target give you better odds of keeping them ticking than some of the big guns of other factions. Master of Laws helps if you get draw stuck, Military role makes you terrifying with Drogo.

 

Lanni/Any - Various Lanni builds are okay, but apart from Varys (who gets his own section) they don't do anything spectacular in Melee. Tyrion and Jaime are both strong melee characters, but they also don't actually require you to go Lanni as your main.

 

Varys Morghulis - Lanni/NA can still be strong in melee. Whilst a one/two turn super-grab is one way of winning melee, a board wipe that you can recover from quickly, but your opponents can't is also viable. If a couple of your duped up guys make it through and you have cards in hand where your enemies don't, they simply may not be able to peg you back as you storm forward over the next couple of turns.

 

Tyrell - These guys lack any serious deterrents (Highgarden isn't a disaster for the attacker). Marge does create some reluctancy to attack them, as you don't want to overcommit, but all in all, whilst they are good, I don't see them ruling melee at present. Again they lack quick closers, though Informant might help and Flowers can always find an opponent to punch through. They do have a good economy however and can choose the appropriate role to help it out at the appropriate time. QoT also becomes easier to trigger as does Mander.

 

Night's Watch - At first glance you might consider The Wall to be impossible to defend in melee. However I quite like pairing them with Martell (either way around). The nuclear deterrent creates a strange dilemma for opponents. Be the guy who kneels The Wall, and almost certainly take tap in response, or hope someone else does it, potentially letting NW grab 2 power. In the early game you'll likely get your 2 power. And hopefully by the time people start stopping it you can go for the final rush, or will actually be able to fend off all the attacks. Again plot choice and role choice become huge. Roles especially will need careful thought to try and minimise being hit. Sneak Attack gets stronger due to rarely wanting to multi-challenge with this build vs 3 opponents, and if Sunspear is out it's a big disincentive to military you without adequate protection (another player might well help you get that mil retal through even). Calling the Banners is a nice one too. Also, some of their weird cards are more likely to go off in melee. Yoren will usually have choices. Taking the Black might even be worth a 1x. A Meagre Contribution can usually be played on someone before your turn. Sam's much more likely to sneak through a card draw, even with his piddly mono-intrigue.

 

Stark - Not too sure about this lot. Can't really rush a melee. They are the faction I've been exposed to the least so not too sure, but can't see a great melee deck for them atm.

 

So, my feeling at present is GJ/Any, Lanni/Varys Morghulis, Targ Fealty, Martell (Possible Wall module) are the ones to go for. I've had very little chance to melee so far though so this may be way way off, hence this thread to garner other opinions and hopefully have a bit of a discussion that's not just about joust (or at all about joust).

 

 

What does everyone else think? What about general strategy changes, or cards that suddenly become appealing/unappealing in contrast to joust?

 

Plot-wise, Calling the Banners is the obvious one. Character-wise you have to rely even less on your big guns, because there's three times the chance of a Milk, Tears or PttS (although unless you make yourself a target early, they won't all be aimed at you). Lack of Draw or Gold consistency hurts less when you take a role to compensate, albeit at the expense of another role. Build-wise you have to be open to the possibility of everyone Wildfiring/Marching to the Wall in unison.

[Flint]

Thank you for starting this topic. I cannot chime in yet, because I still haven't played any 2.0, but I'll most definitely come back and share my insights once I do.

[szczudel]

I have not played a single melee game yet. However, I doubt NW will score for Wall even once without Veteran Builder. It does not have to really, +1 STR for every NW is good enough. Add to it +4P during the game (Let's assume it triggeret twice). It is worth those 4G.

 

I think the way forward here is Superior Claim, Longclaw (on Jon preferably) and Clash of Kings, and occasionally Veteran Builder. There already are decks that are using this approach. I truly doubt defensive playstyle is possible in meele. Conterattack (Martell type) is valid but it is not the same. 

[GKZhukov]

Now that we have a Melee section can this be moved there or do we need to start a new discussion? Feels like there's a real dearth of melee debate occurring atm.

[Alexfrog]

It doesnt matter what your deck is for melee, get dirt on your opponents and blackmail them into attacking each other and not you and then you win.

 

(Yeah, I have no interest at all in melee).

[VonWibble]

Haven't played melee yet but I have made a deck for it.

I decided to go for Tyrs of Joy (Tyrell Greyjoy).

Tyrell gives me surprise strength pumps, making me a less attractive target to attack. It also gives me some rush potential with Knight of Flowers and Randyll Tarly. Margeary also gives me a good bargaining tool - don't attack me, attack him, I will give you +3 str for it. Informant helps me to close out games. Meanwhile Greyjoy gives me stealth to push through challenges.

Totally agree on Calling the Banners (starting to lean that way for joust too tbh). I also think Calm over Westeros is a good shout for any melee plot deck to help mitigate any serious challenge deficiencies. In a Tyrell deck Jousting Contest is a must too.

[GKZhukov]

I'm leaning more and more towards Greyjoy now. Similar to Joust kill, but taking out kill things like PttS and replacing it with Superior Claim. Same with plots - Clash of Kings is in and Storm of Swords out.

 

With Hand of the King & Clash of Kings if you stealth or Balon through two unopposed power challenged with Kraken (not that unrealistic), that's already 8 Power. That's not counting Rivals, Renown/Theon, or Superior Claim. It's not inconceivable that one day we'll see a GJ deck in a tournament pull out 15 Power in one turn. That's a pretty solid finishing move. Of course it relies on HotK not being the role that's randomly excluded (and no-one trumping your initiative with Sneak Attack).

 

The question is whether to Banner. Fealty economy isn't as much of a draw when you can take Master of Coin in a pinch. In a long game having more powerhouses is good, since a lot of Uniques get killed in melee. Jaime/Tyrion are the obvious choices, but it's possible a different house might be better in melee.

[emptyrepublic]

Can't speak on Melee deck building with much authority as I haven't done a lot, but I very much like the change in title selection. Table dynamics feel more or less the same (didn't expect much change). The functional changes in the titles do chance the decision making process when it comes to challenges, in particular Master of Ships.

 

As deck building goes, I instinctively agree that Martell is much stronger. Night's Watch seems to be missing a few cogs to work properly in Melee and The Wall is set up for failure in melee as it's currently written; in a 4+ person melee game it's unrealistic to expect to always oppose a challenge. It feels a lot like 1st edition Riverrun in terms potential vs. downsides. 

 

Greyjoy also feels instinctively strong for the reasons already mentioned. Bara focused on kneel doesn't strike me as that potent in melee (at least not now). Lannister hyper-kneel was never really a thing in 1st edition Melee. No reason to expect it to be a thing in 2nd as things stand now.

[sparrowhawk]

@GKZ
Someone's got his eye on that Melee side event at Worlds...

My thoughts on Melee are in this thread.

http://www.cardgamed...ssion/?p=209252

Threat of Martell power surge will probably be overcompensated by good players. Targ Sun is just all pain deterrence.

[michaelius]

Would Stark stand up tech make them good choice for melee or will it be silenced by Milk too fast ?

[sparrowhawk]

Would Stark stand up tech make them good choice for melee or will it be silenced by Milk too fast ?

 

(Disclaimer: this is all theorycraft based on extensive 1.0 Melee experience.)

 

I believe Stark is a strong choice in Melee.

 

In 1.0. I used to play mostly Melee and in a cut-throat deal-making environment. It helps that I was pretty good at Diplomacy (2nd in Europe twice, 3rd at Worlds once), sadly never great as I have a few limitations.

 

The decks I built (for all 4 of us using my card pool, I got the deck not picked by others) were not the combo burst rush decks that seem to win in tournaments that also seem to be very alliance-based (e.g we'll use each other Dragons and progress to the next round together). The decks instead were very defensive, avoiding negative effects (like kill effects that also help 2 other opponents), mostly positive effects for you and deterrence. Hidden power surge (nothing obvious like "I'm playing Martell so you know I power surge", a red rag for a good player) was obviously the name of the game.

 

Stark is an incredibly defensive faction. It has Eddard and Robb for stand. It has Like Warm Rain (if you have a Wolf, show Rain to everyone) to deter anyone attacking you in INT (unfortunately Master of Whispers still claims against you). Catelyn protects you from Tears. Bran cancels that event that hurts you bad (and can't be cancelled back by Hand's Judgement).

 

I believe Stark Banner Lion is very good in melee. For a group that have graduated beyond "oh, you surprised me with your Martell power surge win".

 

The ability to run 7 cancels in melee (3 Hand, 3 Treachery, 1 Bran) is incredibly strong. You may not look game win threatening (ideal) but you control the game. Show your Treachery to the player with Ghaston Grey or Plaza (which hits any player, not just the losing opponent). Is Martell going to use his Ghaston Grey to force your Treachery? Or keep it to defend against another player? Is Targ going to waste his Plaza on Treachery or kill that Pycelle or Wendamyr causing problems?

 

Banner Lion gives you a non-kneeling renown attacker. It gives you Tyrion's 4 gold per turn guaranteed (and you will always have the gold to play Like Warm Rain with Tyrion). It gives you Treachery. It gives you Joffrey that makes Wildfire a game win for you in the last turn of the game. It gives you Wail as a crucial surprise +2 STR that can't be cancelled. It gives you reprisal of a Tickler dominance lucky dip to anyone who angers you (even better if you can ally with a Rose player for Bear antics). 

 

The build must also have surge potential. The trick to this is 2x A Clash of Kings. You play the first one, win initiative and become last player. You then play the second one, win initiative to become first player, choosing Hand of the King. With 3x Winter is Coming and 3x Superior Claim, you can easily surge to a win from nowhere. Note that if one player should choose Crown Regent and the other Master of Laws then the Crown Regent redirects one of your Power attacks, you can attack the Master of Laws who you support (as Redirect ignores support).

 

Here is my Stark Banner Lion melee build.

 

 

A Lion in Wolf's Clothing

Total Cards: (60)

Faction: Stark

 

Agenda: (1)

1x Banner of the Lion (Core Set)

 

Plot: (7)

2x A Clash of Kings (Core Set)

1x A Noble Cause (Core Set)

1x Calling the Banners (Core Set)

1x Calm Over Westeros (Core Set)

1x Confiscation (Core Set)

1x Counting Coppers (Core Set)

 

Character: (36)

1x Arya Stark (Core Set)

1x Bran Stark (Core Set)

1x Catelyn Stark (Core Set)

3x Eddard Stark (Core Set)

3x Gold Cloaks (Core Set)

1x Grey Wind (Core Set)

1x Joffrey Baratheon (Core Set)

3x Lannisport Moneylender (Core Set)

1x Littlefinger (Core Set)

3x Rattleshirt’s Raiders (Core Set)

3x Robb Stark (Core Set)

1x Sansa Stark (Core Set)

3x Ser Jaime Lannister (Core Set)

1x Summer (Core Set)

1x The Tickler (Core Set)

3x Tumblestone Knight (Core Set)

3x Tyrion Lannister (Core Set)

3x Winterfell Steward (Core Set)

 

Attachment: (2)

1x Little Bird (Core Set)

1x Widow’s Wail (Core Set)

 

Event: (15)

3x Superior Claim (Core Set)

3x The Hand’s Judgment (Core Set)

3x The Things I Do For Love (Core Set)

3x Treachery (Core Set)

3x Winter Is Coming (Core Set)

 

Location: (7)

1x The Iron Throne (Core Set)

3x The Kingsroad (Core Set)

3x The Roseroad (Core Set)

 

 

Some notable omissions...

 

No targeted kill or Milks. Let everyone else do this. High impact attachments (like Milk, weapons and Seal) are vulnerable when everyone is running Confiscation and MIL factions run Raiders. You have the attachment removal in Confiscation and 3 Raiders (leverage the latter diplomatically). This is not a duel where negative cards benefit you. In a multiplayer game, negative cards help the other 2 opponents most (because you have paid 1 card and gold to help them). So no Ice as it will be a magnet for removal and pricey in Banner (awesome in Fealty Joust), a 3 gold targeted kill one-shot.

 

No Vanguard of the North. Non-kneeling is great in melee. Using anyone's War Plot (Heads on Spikes or Wildfire Assault) is also great. So why omitted? Because it's a monocon and the least important icon in melee as well. How does it help you win to weaken another player and not get power from the action? Melee isn't like Aggro Joust crushing opponent's board.

 

No Direwolf Pups + Wolfswood + Warm Like Rain fear deterrent module. This isn't sufficiently developed at the moment, despite the lovely synergy of Tyrion funding your Warm Like Rain. You are better off with intrigue icons of Moneylenders, even if there is Wildfire vulnerability. After all, people only attack to gain power for unopposed. Hitting your hand only uses Player A and B's resources to help Player C and D.

 

No "For the North!". It's a cantrip trick. But also 0 cost to cancel and space is tight. And military really is not that important (with no Ice or MIL kill). MIL's benefit is to simply give you renown (Jaime, Eddard, Robb) and to remove attachments controlled by the loser (Raiders). Never threaten events when making a MIL attack (i.e. ideally attack before Tyrion gold). The point of a melee game is to get something over everyone else and not to weaken one player so that the vultures all circle in for unopposed attacks. You attack your rival or unopposed, you attack the strong, you attack downstream to force that opponent yet to make challenges to kneel characters that can otherwise attack you during his turn.

 

The reasons for all plot choices should be obvious. Unless your flop is awful, Calm over Westeros is for a later turn when you think the table has turned against you. Weather the storm and hopefully a new threat emerges.

 

And that's about it, really. Except of course to act like Colombo. This was my trick in Diplomacy. I learnt it from a shrewd blond girl who played to the dizzy stereotype. Appear like you don't know what you're doing so that opponents underestimate you (this only works in virgin territory; once you win, it's not gonna fool them again). If you have another Stark player losing Military or has just initiated military vs. a lower turn order Targ player, ask them what they can offer you for "For the North!". Listen to their offer then say "Sorry, I think it's unfair to king-make like that". Opponents think you have that event in your hand instead of a hand full of cancels. Use Raiders as diplomatic leverage to "help" your allies by removing attachments that plague them (it's no skin off your nose). Use Grey Wind as reprisal as late as possible usually, make deals not to kill people's weenies and always honour them, at least until that going last penultimate turn then going first final turn double move flip-flop when you renege but only ever to win the game (and only against players who will respect that and not hold a grudge for next time). Finally, always wait for other people to renege on deals. The wounded party will throw the game to you to spite s deal-breaker (who didn't win because you cancelled the win play). It pays to appear non-threatening (just swallow your pride and act an idiot) and to be "honourable House Stark".

[michaelius]

Thanks that was very informative. I definitly won't have trouble with last part since when I do meele I'm like that:

 

[sparrowhawk]

FYI I've changed the deck above.

 

-3 Warm Like Rain (only 5 Direwolf cards to support this strategy)

-3 Direwolf Pup

-3 Hearth Tree Grove

-1 Gates of Winterfell

 

+3 Things I Do For Love (despite Judgement, with Tyrion this is too much challenge control, surprise unopposed, interfere in any challenge)

+3 Gold Cloaks (Tyrion gold funding these surprises, show opponent who thinks attacking you will gain unopposed)

+3 Moneylender (despite Wildfire vulnerability, deterring INT attacks on you by opposing, best economy for this mixed faction ambush deck) 

+1 Little Bird (ideally for Ned, also Robb or protect Arya from Plaza, covers a deficiency)

 

But once we get more Direwolves (or at least that Wolf Dreams card that kneels faction card to tutor them), the Warm Like Rain module will go back in (even dare I say Wolfswood with Tyrion funding). The main problem is that Master of Whispers will always target you to try to remove Rain deterrent.

 

The deck is slightly reliant on 8 Lannister uniques (for 3 Treachery) and 7 Lannister Lords (for 3 Love) but melee games go long so I don't feel this to be too much of a limitation. In fact what I like about the deck is there is so much game control in those events. This is unexpected from a Stark deck.

 

Well, that's how I would play Stark in melee. Maybe because I'm a control player, I'm horribly biased.

[GKZhukov]

I'm leaning more and more towards GJ and Martell being the melee standouts. Although I think Lanni still packs some punch, and Targ and Stark can both run deterrent/cancellation/rush modules of their own.

 

I feel like, if anything, it's the Bannering side that becomes more significant in Melee. Lanni still offer something in Tyrion, Jaime, Joff (Wildfire hilarity if nothing else) and Treachery, as well as Ambush. But Martell offer all those juicy deterrents and surprises. Tyrell also seem to potentially have a strong place as a Banner due to Marge being truly immense in Melee, and Flowers and Informant being good closers (though outside of Martell/Tyrell, Informant is seriously telegraphed).

 

I'm still toying with the idea that Fealty could still be viable in this environment though, as it still offers that nice consistency (for appropriate factions of course). In fact I think I've used fealty in all but two of my games so far (my first and my last).

[michaelius]

how does this Stark fealty look for meele ?

 

http://thronesdb.com/deck/view/7542

 

I've tried to built it on the detterent/cancel philosophy from Sparrowhawk

[sparrowhawk]

how does this Stark fealty look for meele ?

http://thronesdb.com/deck/view/7542

I've tried to built it on the detterent/cancel philosophy from Sparrowhawk

Michaelus - your settings are not set to share for this deck.

"Oh so you claim to have For the North! to defend my potential military challenge successfully with Eddard, do you? But conveniently you won't share this with us..."

"So you got 1 gold left and a Direwolf Pup standing and no Intrigue icons standing - is this a bluff...?"

"You Catelyn standing means I should use my Tears, Dracarys or Superior Claim on someone else? And that I can't cancel Warm Like Rain?"

"Please Mr Stark player, can I play this event and not be cancelled, just because you have another Bran in hand and you want to stand everyone with Robb?"

Yeah, I guess Stark would be a fine choice in melee. Lots of FUN to be had definitely.

Share or list your deck?

[michaelius]

Sorry something went wrong I shared it but then it created 1.1 version under new number and i put link to that one.

 

http://thronesdb.com...tark-fealty-1.0

 

 

House Stark Fealty

Draw deck: 60 cards

Plot deck: 7 cards

Packs: Core Set (3)

 Plot (7)

2x  A Clash of Kings

1x  A Noble Cause

1x  Calling the Banners

1x  Calm Over Westeros

1x  Confiscation

1x  Counting Coppers

 Character (34)

3x  Arya Stark

3x  Bran Stark

3x  Catelyn Stark

3x  Direwolf Pup

3x  Eddard Stark

1x  Grey Wind

2x  Littlefinger

3x  Robb Stark

3x  Sansa Stark

2x  Summer

3x  Tumblestone Knight

2x  Vanguard of the North

3x  Winterfell Steward

 Attachment (5)

2x  Bodyguard

2x  Ice

1x  Little Bird

 Location (12)

3x  Gates of Winterfell

3x  Heart Tree Grove

3x  The Kingsroad

3x  The Roseroad

 Event (9)

2x  Like Warm Rain

2x  Superior Claim

2x  The Hand's Judgment

3x  Winter Is Coming

 

[sparrowhawk]

@Michaelius

 

Just got distracted away from melee for a bit.

 

The build above looks really great with 1 issue; the lack of intrigue icons. Just 3 Catelyn, 3 Sansa (who comes into play knelt) and 2 Littlefinger (who is really hard to play often). This will mean you will be targeted for free unopposed Intrigue by every opponent who can attack you.

 

You need to have a deterrent to say "you won't get unopposed power off me and you will just anger me if you attack me". I really do think you should at least

 

-2 Bodyguard (who is going to get +5 MIL vs. you? Little Birds permanently protect you against Tears of Lys)

+2 Little Bird (they also immunise Arya and Sansa from Plaza that can target any character, not just the loser)

 

But what about threat of Like Warm Rain? Well, they will just attack you with Courtesans and House Dayne Knights for promise of unopposed power. They won't attack with a proper threat, you leave the high STR units to defend usually. It's like ferreting out a Dracarys. There is also the problem that a player who represents Like Warm Rain or Dracarys will be attacked indirectly by Master of Whispers to try to intrigue the threat out of your hand.

 

I really think having more Little Birds is essential, even on a Knight if desperate. You just need to prevent unopposed attacks on you.

 

I would also consider...

 

-1 Ice (even though usable in defence, this is so scary a deterrent that it will be targeted by Confiscation out of fear)

+1 Grey Wind (incredible diplomatic leverage during the challenge phase, best not used except to bring down a leader)

 

But I can understand the "Iron Fist" approach with more kill cards like Ice.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

It's a really nice build, Michaelius.

[gr1mdan]

Interesting to see how certain metas build decks specifically for Joust/Melee (obvious I guess!) but we tend to build decks and use them for both...I guess that's why I do better in Melee, being a Martell and all that.

 

To be honest we've been enjoying Melee a lot in the shop but that might be down to our overall style of play and social aspect of it.

 

Joust is fun and a lot more intense which is also great too

[michaelius]

@Michaelius

 

-2 Bodyguard (who is going to get +5 MIL vs. you? Little Birds permanently protect you against Tears of Lys)

+2 Little Bird (they also immunise Arya and Sansa from Plaza that can target any character, not just the loser)

 

I've tested that deck with this change and it really worked nicely. I even had good shot at winning my first game but GJ matched my initiative on Clash of Kings in last turn and made me a last player due to less power.