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Additional first Cycle Spoilers! (16-Nov-2015)

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#61
ScionMattly

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Seems like Horas + Highgarden could be an expensive little combo. I wonder how the timing for Horas works if you declare him and another Lady as attackers/defenders?

If I understand timing structures correctly, you will declare all your attackers and defenders, and then trigger responses to those effect.
I may be incorrect, it may be a case by case basis - in which case you coudl dlare your attack with the lady and with Horace, and then when Horace kneels stand the lady, as long as you knelt her first.
Instinct tells me its the first thing.



#62
ScionMattly

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Seems like heavily commiting on big military challenges is a theme for stark, Rodrick Cassel realy supports that (and also the winterfell castle). I guess 2x Sneak attack will remain to be a thing for Stark for quite a while.

Which seems weird from a Nedly standpoint. Someone can correct me, but the idea was that Robb didn't win his campaigns because he had more men, he won them because he was an amazing strategist?


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#63
EricF101

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@ScionMattly

That's why it benefits Unique characters? A few good men, over an "army" of multitudes.


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#64
sparrowhawk

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I think that Targ banner of the Rose will really love the cards in this cycle. One knight to go get a lady and one to stand her. It sounds like Dany is going to be courted...


I thought of that too - but then isn't the cost a bit steep? Hobber (5) finds Dany (7) to keep in hand, may lose to intrigue. Same applies for Olenna really. In the end, tutor for Margaery to play that turn or tutor a dupe 7 coster. I think Stark Rose benefits more with its cheap ladies. Hobber will probably be more playable than his lute playing twin with his guaranteed trigger for 0 card cost net.

Roderick Cassell is amazing. Not just best new target for Ice as it raises him above key 4 STR threshold (nice design, countering such a powerful text with a crucially undercosted body to match his age), all those insightful named dire wolves (as well as Ned, Robb, Arya and even Sansa with Lady via the Packmaster Ally and Bran with Syrio icon accompanied by Hodor), that's just ridiculous draw potential. I don't get it. Is this card balanced? I'd hate to see another "I won because I had Balon, Scout and Seal turn 1" type of card but maybe design believes High Variance has mass appeal.

Mostly very interesting spoilers in every sense. For me, the 2 big blemishes are:

Crown of Molten Gold - 1 copy point-and-click kill of key 5 costers that underpin many decks like Mel and Tyrion. What a rubbish high variance design. Add Plaza trigger and kills all except Viper. Are we really moving to the rubbish high variance of Khymera Den from Conquest? Please don't do this 1 copy per deck nonsense. It's also bad value on the customer (although most uniques will soon be x1). This is Newly Made Lord territory and if we wanted to play point-and-click kill cards, we would play Magic. Bad design on so many fronts, this just trumped Heads on Spikes as my most hated design on so many levels.

Dagmer Cleftjaw - WTF? He costs more than King Balon! Whilst Euron being the 7 coster made sense, this was a relatively lower ranked character. Why on earth cost him at 7? Whilst his powerful effect is suitably hard but possible to trigger (win alone, so needs Nets and maybe Syrio or Confinement / Stag kneel), it's not the design of the card that I dislike (though he adds nothing to the unopposed or ignored Pillage theme and is anti-synergetic with a prior played We Do Not Sow, unlike Euron). Attack alone is a Tyrell theme! But the worst thing is they designed an obscure character with little rank 7 as cost! This is ludicrous. Horrible design.

I wish they had kept named characters in the 1 to 5 range and had big beefy armies (or courtiers/ruffians for INT) in the 6-7 cost slots. But they didn't and have risked losing the iconic characters as decks become more efficient. Now they give Dagmer 7 cost with a design that befits Tyrell mechanically even if they don't have an appropriate character. They should have used that design for Aegon the Conqueror. Instead we watch as Dagmer gets marshalled for more cost than Balon. Ridiculous!

In case the last 2 paragraphs came off a tad negative (grumpy mood today), I do like most of the designs "spoiled". Warhorse is probably my fave design like 1.0 Underhand Assassin yet again favours cheap swarm over big dudes. But my fave design concept are the non-Terminal control attachments (again anti-Big Dudes). Wamma prophecied correctly on that one.



#65
Zeetro

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Tyrell Chivalry deck here I come!
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#66
ScionMattly

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Dagmer Cleftjaw - WTF? He costs more than King Balon! Whilst Euron being the 7 coster made sense, this was a relatively lower ranked character. Why on earth cost him at 7? Whilst his powerful effect is suitably hard but possible to trigger (win alone, so needs Nets and maybe Syrio or Confinement / Stag kneel), it's not the design of the card that I dislike (though he adds nothing to the unopposed or ignored Pillage theme and is anti-synergetic with a prior played We Do Not Sow, unlike Euron). Attack alone is a Tyrell theme! But the worst thing is they designed an obscure character with little rank 7 cost! This is ludicrous. Horrible design.
 

It's worth noting that Dagmer is (or was) one of the most feared reavers of Pyke, having personally spent summers reaving the summer shore with King Balon himself. He was likely the Master of Arms at Pyke, as it's noted he trained Theon Greyjoy as a child, who refers to him as an uncle. He's also captain of his own ship, and feared.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Dagmer has more book time and more lines than Euron Greyjoy.

I think the idea is "big" characters will have multiple incarnations. Greyjoy only has a few to deal with - Balon, Euron, Victarion, Asha, Theon. I don't think five uniques will sustain a cardpool indefinitely, and so some of these secondary characters will get powerful versions to create different deck synergies - so we aren't looking at 7 cost Euron as the only deck anchor indefinitely.

tl;dr - Dagmer is actually a pretty badass dude.



#67
VonWibble

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I don't know what the flavor text says on the brothers, but it looks like it might be referring to them trying to claim the hand of Sansa or another lady? Who knows, maybe we'll see a neutral Lady of importance.


I'm wondering if one of them refers to the fact Sansa and Jeyne Poole thought of Horas and Hobber as Horror and Slobber?

Having Marge to search for (even if its just a dupe) is good enough already. But I'm thinking Arianne is a nice option too as she then lets you cheat in Knight of Flowers and Olenna's Informant.

On Hodor, he's a lot weaker than the 1st edition version (1 more cost, to be expected, but can now be stealthed and doesn't count for dom in exchange for synergy with Bran - a character you often sacrifice!) I'd use him in current meta for sure, and see him being a big put off for opponents in melee. Long term I think he doesn't make the cut though.
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#68
Serazu

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I think the idea is "big" characters will have multiple incarnations. Greyjoy only has a few to deal with - Balon, Euron, Victarion, Asha, Theon.

 

You forgot Aeron, the boss high priest of Cthulhu.



#69
ScionMattly

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EDIT: Double post, curse the gods. 



#70
VonWibble

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Roderick Cassell is amazing. Not just best new target for Ice as it raises him above key 4 STR threshold (nice design, countering such a powerful text with a crucially undercosted body to match his age), all those insightful named dire wolves (as well as Ned, Robb, Arya and even Sansa with Lady via the Packmaster Ally and Bran with Syrio icon accompanied by Hodor), that's just ridiculous draw potential. I don't get it. Is this card balanced? I'd hate to see another "I won because I had Balon, Scout and Seal turn 1" type of card but maybe design believes High Variance has mass appeal.


One thing to bear in mind is that this is by definition challenge phase draw. If you draw a lot, you will pitch a lot to reserve. And Stark tend to run plots with less than 6 reserve to begin with.

Now, it still improves card quality a lot for sure, as you will be choosing your best 6 out of lots of cards instead of just keeping 6. But it does need bearing in mind.

He's really good, no doubts there, but not game-breakingly so. If you get more than 3 cards from his challenges you are either in a clearly winning position anyway, or are leaving yourself completely open to return challenges.

#71
sparrowhawk

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One thing to bear in mind is that this is by definition challenge phase draw. If you draw a lot, you will pitch a lot to reserve. And Stark tend to run plots with less than 6 reserve to begin with.Now, it still improves card quality a lot for sure, as you will be choosing your best 6 out of lots of cards instead of just keeping 6. But it does need bearing in mind.He's really good, no doubts there, but not game-breakingly so. If you get more than 3 cards from his challenges you are either in a clearly winning position anyway, or are leaving yourself completely open to return challenges.


No MIL icon removal spoiled for Martell. Maybe it doesn't exist because MIL is so key for so many triggers, acts as a non-Terminal Milk.

Stark has poor draw. It has no long game. Now it has! Currently only 4 MIL targets for Ice so Roderick is a nice add (Jory will be another). They also have the uniques theme from Winterfell Castle going back to 1.0 No Quarter etc. Roderick has Insight 1+ on Military. That's sick. I'm happy they have given Stark a long game but it seems such a swingy approach (like the variance of Gates amplified).

An analogy is a new Netrunner runner called Adam. He's rubbish most of the time. But because of a "the more I win, the better this card gets" card he uses, if he gets a lucky opening, he snowballs to be nigh unstoppable. And even though he has a very low win rate, you are most likely to win turn 1 (or turn 2 against any build) with him. That's just Bad Design, Mr Litzinger.

I sometimes worry at the High Variance being added to all FFG LCGs. We have it in the next cycle of Conquest where the random terrain drives your special ability - you may be stuffed straight out due to random planets. Not forgetting the ludicrously powerful 1x cards they design there. And that was the game that introduced the search top X cards mechanic instead of tutors that was considered "too easy" by one playtester/moderator/rules editor.

Now I can see them thinking "Netrunner is popular and it has random access which is full of luck". But Netrunner only became popular once they balanced the factions and sorted out issues like Scorched protection (Plascrete) and Agenda flood (Jackson) and even Fast Advance (Clot) and Poisonous Agendas (Film Critic). In the end, whilst it gives every player the illusion that they can win because of the luck of access, it is a highly skilled game like Poker.

These LCGs are not easy to learn. They appeal to clever people. Who want to devise clever strategies. And not be foiled by stupid luck! The current mulligan rule is yet another aspect that shows FFG just want to debase the skill level of their games in their assumption that it will make the game more mainstream. But there's no such market! Customisable card gamers want clever skill-based games. Else we'd be happy with Snap.

My, I'm in a grumpy mood today. But anyone who plays multiple LCGs will have discerned this undercurrent in all their games. And it's suicide trying to appeal to this nonexistent market and disenfranchise your Core base who dislike High Variance, often intellectual elitists who view these games as puzzles to solve.

Back to the topic in hand - are people really impressed with Tyrell cards? Much And More was to bypass draw cap and leverage Rule by Decree pre-plot and recursion. None of that exists now. Tyrell have draw deck effects as their theme and I love that. But after pack 1, what else is amazing? That Warhorse attachment. But the rest, are they really up to scratch? Look what 5 cost gets you in Core. Of course compared to current Pool, they have improved manifold. But so will have other Houses. Fishing Net (sadly back) is huge for Greyjoy. I'm really happy to see Tyrell "growing stronger" but I'm unsure that it will change the current hierarchy. Where Tyrell is a great banner.



#72
Ignithas

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No MIL icon removal spoiled for Martell. Maybe it doesn't exist because MIL is so key for so many triggers, acts as a non-Terminal Milk.

Stark has poor draw. It has no long game. Now it has! Currently only 4 MIL targets for Ice so Roderick is a nice add (Jory will be another). They also have the uniques theme from Winterfell Castle going back to 1.0 No Quarter etc. Roderick has insight++ on Military. That's sick. I'm happy they have given Stark a long game but it seems such a swingy approach (like the variance of Gates amplified).

An analogy is a new Netrunner runner called Adam. He's rubbish most of the time. But because of a "the more I win, the better this card gets" card he uses, if he gets a lucky opening, he snowballs to be nigh unstoppable. And even though he has a very low win rate, you are must likely to win turn 1 (or turn 2 against any build) with him. That's just Bad Design, Mr Litzinger.

I sometimes worry at the High Variance being added to all FFG LCGs. We have it in the next cycle of Conquest where the random terrain drives your special ability - you may be stuffed straight out due to random planets. Not forgetting the ludicrously powerful 1x cards they design there.

Now I can see them thinking "Netrunner is popular and it has random access which is full of luck". But Netrunner only became popular once they balanced the factions and sorted out issues like Scorched protection (Plascrete) and Agenda flood (Jackson) and even Fast Advance (Clot) and Poisonous Agendas (Film Critic). In the end, whilst it gives every player the illusion that they can win because of the luck of access, it is a highly skilled game like Poker.

These LCGs are not easy to learn. They appeal to clever people. Who want to devise clever strategies. And not be foiled by stupid luck! The current mulligan rule is yet another aspect that shows FFG just want to debase the skill level of their games in their assumption that it will make the game more mainstream. But there's no such market! Customisable card gamers want clever skill based games. Else we'll be happy with Snap.

My, I'm in a grumpy mood today. But anyone who plays multiple LCGs will have discerned this undercurrent in all their games. And it's suicide trying to appeal to this nonexistent market and disenfranchise your Core base who dislike High Variance, often intellectual elitists who view these games as puzzles to solve.

Back to the topic in hand - are people really impressed with Tyrell cards? Much And More was to bypass draw cap and leverage Rule by Decree pre-plot and recursion. None of that exists. Tyrell have draw deck effects as their theme and I love that. But after pack 1, what else is amazing? That Warhorse attachment. But the rest, are they really up to scratch? Look what 5 cost gets you in Core. Of course compared to current Pool, they have improved many fold. But so will have other Houses. Fishing Net is huge for Greyjoy etc.

The funny thing is that I thought the same thing when looking at some cards from the new cycle. Especially the Stark and GJ cards look a lot like this: Conditional cards that if they work are extremly powerfull, but chances are that the whole card house falls apart, because their usefullnes is very dependant on a lot of things.


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#73
Radix

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I thought of that too - but then isn't the cost a bit steep? Hobber (5) finds Dany (7) to keep in hand, may lose to intrigue. Same applies for Olenna really. In the end, tutor for Margaery to play that turn or tutor a dupe 7 coster. I think Stark Rose benefits more with its cheap ladies. Hobber will probably be more playable than his lute playing twin with his guaranteed trigger for 0 card cost net


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Hobber is definitely higher value if i had to choose between them. On the other hand, Horas can stand Margaery for another boost, Sansa for extra power, or Arya for another stealth challenge.
I am pretty sure they work better with starks than targ. You get 2 ladies at low cost, as well as a nnon-unique knight. Horas will work best as a tutor for 3 drop lady, or a dupe of Olenna. I would run maybe 2 Hobber as he is 2 extra margaerys, and at most 2 horas. As the cardpool gets larger probably less, but Hobber is definitely a stable in any deck playing Margaery.
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#74
Barnie25

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How about a Knights of the Red Lady deck?

 

You get two extra Knights, one of which who has stealth and 'doesn't die' sort of speak. You get to tutor for Mel which is awesome, you get to tutor for Selyse which means extra kneel.

 

Doesn't seem all that bad.


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#75
VonWibble

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No MIL icon removal spoiled for Martell. Maybe it doesn't exist because MIL is so key for so many triggers, acts as a non-Terminal Milk.


Also Rodrik is no attachments except weapon, so I am now hoping Martell (which hasn't had many spoilers yet) gets "A Broken Spear" as a non terminal weapon attachment that is the mil icon remover.

#76
sparrowhawk

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How about a Knights of the Red Lady deck?

 

You get two extra Knights, one of which who has stealth and 'doesn't die' sort of speak. You get to tutor for Mel which is awesome, you get to tutor for Selyse which means extra kneel.

 

Doesn't seem all that bad.

 

Yeah, I really like that!

 

The swarm version (wants to flood with knights) would be Tyrell Stag for waterborne brothels. And The Arbor so you can play Hobber + Mel in one turn (and mitgate those barges).

 

It's the best idea I've seen so far, Barney.



#77
sparrowhawk

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Also Rodrik is no attachments except weapon, so I am now hoping Martell (which hasn't had many spoilers yet) gets "A Broken Spear" as a non terminal weapon attachment that is the mil icon remover.

 

Wow. I never noticed that about Roderick.

 

That's fricking awesome. Annoying he can't be buffed by Lady as he needs a buff. I guess an on-initiative For the North sorts out Dracarys but not Confinement or Consolidation of Power.

 

It really annoys me that just like Dagmer, they make Roderick such a high profile character. A lynchpin for Stark. When he lost Winterfell to Theon's tiny band. Hardly insightful!

 

Broken Spear as a "No MIL icon" weapon attachment needs to be Terminal. It's too good otherwise, stuffs Night's Watch, armies, Braided Warriors etc.

 

I'm sad Roderick has such a strong keyword (especially considering this control = non-Terminal negatives design) as I can quite imagine him as an opium sote.

 

Fishing Net is a non-Terminal negative weapon though. So you may be right on Broken Spear.



#78
WWDrakey

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No MIL icon removal spoiled for Martell. Maybe it doesn't exist because MIL is so key for so many triggers, acts as a non-Terminal Milk.

Stark has poor draw. It has no long game. Now it has! Currently only 4 MIL targets for Ice so Roderick is a nice add (Jory will be another). They also have the uniques theme from Winterfell Castle going back to 1.0 No Quarter etc. Roderick has Insight 1+ on Military. That's sick. I'm happy they have given Stark a long game but it seems such a swingy approach (like the variance of Gates amplified).

An analogy is a new Netrunner runner called Adam. He's rubbish most of the time. But because of a "the more I win, the better this card gets" card he uses, if he gets a lucky opening, he snowballs to be nigh unstoppable. And even though he has a very low win rate, you are most likely to win turn 1 (or turn 2 against any build) with him. That's just Bad Design, Mr Litzinger.

I sometimes worry at the High Variance being added to all FFG LCGs. We have it in the next cycle of Conquest where the random terrain drives your special ability - you may be stuffed straight out due to random planets. Not forgetting the ludicrously powerful 1x cards they design there. And that was the game that introduced the search top X cards mechanic instead of tutors that was considered "too easy" by one playtester/moderator/rules editor.

Now I can see them thinking "Netrunner is popular and it has random access which is full of luck". But Netrunner only became popular once they balanced the factions and sorted out issues like Scorched protection (Plascrete) and Agenda flood (Jackson) and even Fast Advance (Clot) and Poisonous Agendas (Film Critic). In the end, whilst it gives every player the illusion that they can win because of the luck of access, it is a highly skilled game like Poker.

These LCGs are not easy to learn. They appeal to clever people. Who want to devise clever strategies. And not be foiled by stupid luck! The current mulligan rule is yet another aspect that shows FFG just want to debase the skill level of their games in their assumption that it will make the game more mainstream. But there's no such market! Customisable card gamers want clever skill-based games. Else we'd be happy with Snap.

My, I'm in a grumpy mood today. But anyone who plays multiple LCGs will have discerned this undercurrent in all their games. And it's suicide trying to appeal to this nonexistent market and disenfranchise your Core base who dislike High Variance, often intellectual elitists who view these games as puzzles to solve.

Back to the topic in hand - are people really impressed with Tyrell cards? Much And More was to bypass draw cap and leverage Rule by Decree pre-plot and recursion. None of that exists now. Tyrell have draw deck effects as their theme and I love that. But after pack 1, what else is amazing? That Warhorse attachment. But the rest, are they really up to scratch? Look what 5 cost gets you in Core. Of course compared to current Pool, they have improved manifold. But so will have other Houses. Fishing Net (sadly back) is huge for Greyjoy. I'm really happy to see Tyrell "growing stronger" but I'm unsure that it will change the current hierarchy. Where Tyrell is a great banner.

 

Variance is a difficult thing with Thrones.

 

On one hand, Thrones has the first turn mulligan and setup, which enhance it... but then it has the plot deck that allows mitigation of those very high variance starts of flooding the board with characters. Lo and behold, the First Snow of Winter is coming... (I believe we'll see more than a bit of first turn First Snow, especially when that new Tyrell gold location hits)

 

Similarly, we have these one-shot effects like that new Targ attachment, or drawing into keystone cards like Melisandre. On another level, we've got built-in tutor plots in Summons & Building Orders and we Tyrell f.ex. has plenty of deck stacking tech and tutors for minimizing any of that variance... which is curious, since they also have cards like Left & Right that gain from that trickery.

 

Similarly, we've got a much higher character cost variance and disparity in resources... but we're also given much more legit card advantage and draw right off the bat than we had early on in 1.0. And again, we have Heads on Spikes... and seem to now be getting a plot for moving a card from your dead pile. 

 

If anything, to me, it's looking a lot like Variance and especially managing it are a very base core deckbuilding and play skill for this new edition of Thrones. It has always been a part of the game of course, but it seems to be going to a whole new level. We've got a mix of variance inducing and variance mitigating effects, of high impact single cards and effects that allow you to try and make them work... The end result feels like there's an interesting seesaw going on, and it will take a while before we really start grasping how to best use that to the best of our advantage. If the Wot5K winner's deck is anything to go by, packing your deck with tools (2x Summons) to mitigate the variance (of drawing into Varys) pays off!

 

Honestly, I do prefer it this way to what Doomtown f.ex. has with the "set" starting characters. Those just feel like they promote one-dimensional decks that can be played only in a single way, and become increasingly tedious the more you repeat the same patterns. In a game of Thrones, you're constantly dealt new (good or bad!) starting situations, which you need to find a way to manage through the elements you have at your disposal... preferably having packed your deck full of ways to turn any situation to your advantage.

 

Whether this approach appeals to everyone is of course a different matter!


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#79
WWDrakey

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Broken Spear as a "No MIL icon" weapon attachment needs to be Terminal. It's too good otherwise, stuffs Night's Watch, armies, Braided Warriors etc.

 

 

Personally, I sincerely hope that the M icon remover, if there indeed is one (fingers crossed!), is not treated different from the others by giving it Terminal. The Core feels way too Military & Aggro -oriented as it is for my taste...

 

 

*Wanders off about uncivilized louts simply caring about bashing each other in the face.*


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#80
sparrowhawk

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Personally, I sincerely hope that the M icon remover, if there indeed is one (fingers crossed!), is not treated different from the others by giving it Terminal. The Core feels way too Military & Aggro -oriented as it is for my taste...

 

 

*Wanders off about uncivilized louts simply caring about bashing each other in the face.*

 

Yep, I totally agree. I long for 1.0 finesse (my Lanni Rose attempt in the Lanni Thread for a pure intrigue Relative Card Advantage sadly auto-loses to GJ). I was happy to see Martell as an intrigue-strong house win Worlds but in the end, like Vaapad's build for NYC, it was mainly Aggro swarm as its core design. (Would be interested tp see how you'd categorise it.)

 

I think there will be a No MIL Icon attachment but it won't be a Weapon. "No attachments except Weapon" must mean something very positive (yeah, Fishing Net still hurts them - but we always knew someone loves Greyjoy in design.)

 

I really liked your "Tyrell as a Variance Mitigator" observation with its draw deck effects theme. This may make it a preferred choice for stronger players so I may end up eating humble pie over my assessment of Tyrell main.


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