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Additional first Cycle Spoilers! (16-Nov-2015)

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#81
ScionMattly

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Wow. I never noticed that about Roderick.

 

That's fricking awesome. Annoying he can't be buffed by Lady as he needs a buff. I guess an on-initiative For the North sorts out Dracarys but not Confinement or Consolidation of Power.

 

It really annoys me that just like Dagmer, they make Roderick such a high profile character. A lynchpin for Stark. When he lost Winterfell to Theon's tiny band. Hardly insightful!

 

Isn't he Castellan of Winterfell? That's a pretty powerful position.
He only lost to the Ironborn because Ned and Robb took everyone South. you can only do so much, man!



#82
fozzyfosbourne

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Well, he defeats Dagmer, so he must be pretty powerful to defeat a 7 coster!


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#83
NikolaP

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Hodor never beats Doran in politics, but here...

#84
ingsve

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Hodor never beats Doran in politics, but here...

Here he still doesn't. Hodor doesn't do intrigue.



#85
sparrowhawk

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I think we have to suspend some reality for game mechanics.

Power in this game is a combination of
- birthright or social standing (most lords and ladies)
- ambition craving power (hence Jaime missing power)
- might is right (controlling this army grants you power)
- feats of engineering (builders)

Politics is surely more intrigue? Eddard was never good at it.

For elegance of just 2 numbers, we have an incredibly simplified rating system. Tyrion is better at intrigue than craving power. Cersei craves power (her main motivation is protecting her children though) and her attempts at intrigue end up backfiring eg. defaulting on Bank of Braavos, The Faith Militant etc. Her descent into paranoia was captured very well in the disliked Book 4 (that I enjoyed as it was about King's Landing intrigue).

You do make a good point about the master plotter Doran though.

I don't understand why they added "other" to Doran's text. STR 4 can't trigger Insight without being burnt or confined or knelt - ugh. Would be interested to hear from playtesters why he has "other" - I assume this was flagged up as not a good idea?

Red Viper should have had straight Renown and text equivalent to 1,0 Deadly which makes far more sense than the current text (Oberyn was never after power beyond a means for revenge).

Yeah, some designs of the iconic characters have disappointed. Oberyn is probably one of the most favourite characters and they should have created a cool character just for player empathy. Again surprised this wasn't flagged up during playtesting.

But we have what we have and it's a pretty good start, despite the blemishes.

I don't even remember who 7 cost Dagmer was so I wouldn't be surprised if the elderly Castellan of Winterfell defeated him. I really hope they don't continue to belittle major characters (Cersei STR 4, Margaery STR 3 yet Dagmer has a higher STR power than either of them) by creating more high cost bit part characters.

I mean Hobber and Horas have more Power than Margaery who married 3 kings! It's often topsy turvy ratings (also Left & Right as evergreen Core?) and I hope they don't continue like this.
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#86
ingsve

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You do make a good point about the master plotter Doran though.

I don't understand why they added "other" to Doran's text. STR 4 can't trigger Insight without being burnt or confined or knelt - ugh. Would be interested to hear from playtesters why he has "other" - I assume this was flagged up as not a good idea?

Well, it sort of makes sense that Doran himself doesn't get more powerful given his gout. Earlier versions of him have often been fairly weak compared to cost. 2 Cost for 0 STR, 3 cost for 1 STR and 4 cost for 2 STR for example.



#87
sparrowhawk

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Well, it sort of makes sense that Doran himself doesn't get more powerful given his gout. Earlier versions of him have often been fairly weak compared to cost. 2 Cost for 0 STR, 3 cost for 1 STR and 4 cost for 2 STR for example.


Gout doesn't diminish his powers of intrigue / politicking nor his birthright claim to rule Dorne. He doesn't have military so his gout is surely irrelevant?

Why not just remove the "other" and add a ticking bomb to signify his ill health? "Forced Reaction: sacrifice Doran Martell after you take used plots to hand."

Anyway, it's done. Just feedback that costings like Dagmer make a mockery of the inherent status of marque characters. I doubt they bother trawling forums for feedback anyway.

Let's get back to the topic of the thread.

Does anyone else think Roderick seems too good to the point of the same high variance as drawing Balon?

Yes, that 4 STR needs protecting against 3 houses (we are bound to get a neutral non-unique weapon, meantime we have Ice, Wail and Dawn). But so much card draw for doing what Stark wants to do seems incredibly strong.

I think I've high standards, wanting balanced characters, always an agonising trade-off. Whilst binder fodder is just bad value for the fans, at least it's just instant-obsolete. I generally feel that an auto-include is an even worse a design crime because it reduces customisation.

#88
WWDrakey

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Abstract values are abstract, and subjective understandings of vague concepts... subjective. There's the ability one has in something, the extent they use it to, the personal support they have in that regard from allies or underlings, the traditions of their Faction and the support that the Faction there offers... Which of these, if any, should we use to gauge the values?

 

Similarly, with regard to gold cost, does it indicate how "demanding" a particular character is, how high they are in some power-hierarchy, what it costs to enlist their support... I mean, nobody's complaining about Cersei being lower in both cost and STR to Jaime. One is a glorified bodyguard (at the beginning of the books, which the timeline seems to indicate), the other the queen of the realm. Yet it's Dagmer at 7g that we find odd? (don't even get me started on Tyrion...)

 

Dagmer, who happens to be... http://m.westeros.org/index.php/Dagmer Yep, Balon's trusted hand, who was the most dreaded warrior of the Iron Islands in his youth, the same guy who trained Theon to fight, who's the second (and more important) part of the bait & switch that is used to capture Winterfell, the one who captures Torrhen's Square... 

 

The whole system is so very abstract, so I see it somewhat silly being riled up about it going against one's subjective understanding of it. I mean, Margaery costing 3 and supporting others rankles me a lot, since to me she's the spear-head of the Faction (in both politics & intrigue) and the one all the Factions other resources are used to support. However, at least the current Margaery card is good and makes decks, so despite it's odd cost slot I can live with it. Similarly I'm fine with more obscure parts (not well covered by the HBO series, of which I'm no fan of) of the book lore being brought forth. They help us learn about some of the things hidden in the details of Martin's work, and help add flavor to the game.

 

Constantly getting more Balon's, Euron's & Asha's would grow boring after a while, be particularly irritating here in the beginning (due to the small cardpool), and so would getting piles of some faceless random "Army of the blah-blah" cards... it's not like the Armys actually play a big role in the books! I mean they exist, and some battles are fought (rarely in written portions) but often an inquisitive lady's maid can have a bigger impact on the actual story.

 

I mean... How many battles does Martell fight in the books? Why do they even HAVE armies as cards, it's not like they ever use them...



#89
sparrowhawk

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@WWDrakey

You make a good point that playability forgives all sins. The fact that Margaery is a good card makes her strange costing instantly forgiveable. Because she will always be a presence in Rose builds. Loras as well probably because he's also incredible value. Between them, the 2 most high profile Tyrells.

But surely there needs to be consistency? Otherwise you are unnecessarily stretching disbelief, creating a jarring juxtaposition between expectation and delivery.

I think we all know Tyrion should have more STR than Jaime and Cersei even more. Tyrion's text seems more suited to Littlefinger. The HBO duel deck gave Tyrion Stealth and Insight. I think Tyrion with Stealth and Insight (coming up with new schemes = cards) seems more Nedly. Whilst Pycelle was the court healer, he should have Cressen's ability (and future Small Council benefit). Cressen meantime should have The Seven trait to start a dichotomy of 2 religious factions in Baratheon and could have "opponent returns event in your discard pile to your hand after you win a challenge with Cressen" to signify his attempt at poison? He never cured Shireen of her condition (and Greyscale will be a negative Condition attachment one day) and now we have Collar.

Ugh, that reminds me of so many attachments being Conditions like Bodyguard and Little Bird (awful name, why not just "Court Connections" - I get embarrassed playing Little Bird when teaching the game). I really like the Maester's Collar design but why does it remove Bodyguards etc? Even Fishing Net is a Condition (as well as a Weapon and what it should be, an Item). These are unnecessary jarring details.

Now I realise that factions have themes and you can't just design in a Nedly way. I also realise cards need to be balanced - they decided Fishing Net needs to be able to hit Weapon-only characters and also be removed by Collar/Cressen. But it's still jarring design.

I understand that they wanted a pantheon of low to high cost uniques so that's why Left and Right were there instead of Mace and Garlan, Royce instead of Thorne etc. They also have to design for multiple formats from casual 1 Core to Joust to Melee. I appreciate the amazing juggling act they achieved trying to appease so many different audiences and have 8 factions in 1 box. It just seems strange they then add pinnacle cost characters like Dagmer in the context of his 7 cost contemporaries.

Back on topic...

Do these pre-emptively spoiled cards continue the need of Confiscation as an auto-include? We need more "Disenchant" beyond Raiders (which promotes Aggro yawn) and Collar (partial, Maesters rare though we can guarantee with a plot). I've been most impressed by Warhorse, Fishing Net, the No INT condition. So will we be playing with a customisable plot deck of 6 cards?

#90
drakk

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I mean... How many battles does Martell fight in the books? Why do they even HAVE armies as cards, it's not like they ever use them...

 

They don't have army cards :P at least not yet



#91
JoeFromCincinnati

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They don't have army cards :P at least not yet

 

yep, only faction without an army in the core set.

 

@WWDrakey

You make a good point that playability forgives all sins. The fact that Margaery is a good card makes her strange costing instantly forgiveable. Because she will always be a presence in Rose builds. Loras as well probably because he's also incredible value. Between them, the 2 most high profile Tyrells.

But surely there needs to be consistency? Otherwise you are unnecessarily stretching disbelief, creating a jarring juxtaposition between expectation and delivery.

I think we all know Tyrion should have more STR than Jaime and Cersei even more. Tyrion's text seems more suited to Littlefinger. The HBO duel deck gave Tyrion Stealth and Insight. I think Tyrion with Stealth and Insight (coming up with new schemes = cards) seems more Nedly. Whilst Pycelle was the court healer, he should have Cressen's ability (and future Small Council benefit). Cressen meantime should have The Seven trait to start a dichotomy of 2 religious factions in Baratheon and could have "opponent returns event in your discard pile to your hand after you win a challenge with Cressen" to signify his attempt at poison? He never cured Shireen of her condition (and Greyscale will be a negative Condition attachment one day) and now we have Collar.

Ugh, that reminds me of so many attachments being Conditions like Bodyguard and Little Bird (awful name, why not just "Court Connections" - I get embarrassed playing Little Bird when teaching the game). I really like the Maester's Collar design but why does it remove Bodyguards etc? Even Fishing Net is a Condition (as well as a Weapon and what it should be, an Item). These are unnecessary jarring details.

Now I realise that factions have themes and you can't just design in a Nedly way. I also realise cards need to be balanced - they decided Fishing Net needs to be able to hit Weapon-only characters and also be removed by Collar/Cressen. But it's still jarring design.

I understand that they wanted a pantheon of low to high cost uniques so that's why Left and Right were there instead of Mace and Garlan, Royce instead of Thorne etc. They also have to design for multiple formats from casual 1 Core to Joust to Melee. I appreciate the amazing juggling act they achieved trying to appease so many different audiences and have 8 factions in 1 box. It just seems strange they then add pinnacle cost characters like Dagmer in the context of his 7 cost contemporaries.

Back on topic...

Do these pre-emptively spoiled cards continue the need of Confiscation as an auto-include? We need more "Disenchant" beyond Raiders (which promotes Aggro yawn) and Collar (partial, Maesters rare though we can guarantee with a plot). I've been most impressed by Warhorse, Fishing Net, the No INT condition. So will we be playing with a customisable plot deck of 6 cards?

 

This post contains major spoilers for some of the main plot lines of the books. If you don't want to know, don't read past this point!! (I know most of us know, but in the Facebook group, there have been a lot of people who say this game has sparked their interest in the books, not the other way around).

 

 

Spoiler


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#92
Zeetro

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They don't have army cards :P at least not yet

They're getting one in the cycle.

Spoiler

Class A post right there bud.

#93
jrosen9

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I think its pointless to compare strength between characters.  If you wanted to compare strength between characters and have it be meaningful as far as the books are concerned you would have to rework the game system.  The issue is that a single strength value applies to all three challenge types.  I mean if Syrio gives a Doran some training, he instantly becomes just as good a fighter as he is at playing the intrigue game. If you want to compare strengths between characters as they relate to the books, you would have to give each character three different strength values or consider their strength as an average of their ability in the three challenge types..  

 

Look at Cercei, she should have a high value for power as queen but a not so high value for intrigue because lets be real, she is awful at intrigue even though she tries..



#94
ScionMattly

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 Yet once he gains control of Varys' little birds, he is able to not only secure the position as Master of Whisperers, but he even remains relevant after Cersei is arrested, almost entirely because he did have control of the Little Birds. Otherwise, you know he'd either be forced to flee or even arrested himself, considering the only person in the city that respected him was arrested.

 

Spoiler



#95
ingsve

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They're getting one in the cycle.
Class A post right there bud.

 

Oh, Zeetro, you little troll, you. ;)

 

There's not much point in Habesjn using spoilertags to hide his post when someone comes along and just quotes the post openly without the spoilertags.



#96
JoeFromCincinnati

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Oh, Zeetro, you little troll, you. ;)

 

There's not much point in Habesjn using spoilertags to hide his post when someone comes along and just quotes the post openly without the spoilertags.

 

Sorry, that was my fault.

 

I added the spoiler tags after he quoted it. I didn't realize there were spoiler tags on this forum until ScionMattly used them.


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#97
Zeetro

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Oh, Zeetro, you little troll, you. ;)

There's not much point in Habesjn using spoilertags to hide his post when someone comes along and just quotes the post openly without the spoilertags.


As noted above, the tags where added after my post.

#98
fozzyfosbourne

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Personally, I sincerely hope that the M icon remover, if there indeed is one (fingers crossed!), is not treated different from the others by giving it Terminal. The Core feels way too Military & Aggro -oriented as it is for my taste...

 

 

*Wanders off about uncivilized louts simply caring about bashing each other in the face.*

Yeah. I was reading the Recrafting the Theory articles again recently, and one thing that occurred to me is while the extreme edges of Hard Control and Rush don't seem to be that well supported yet in the cardpool, Hard Aggro seems to have a good deal of support in plots, characters, and events.  

 

Sometimes matchups in the Core Set feel like Mike Tyson fights, if anyone remembers him, heh.


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#99
Barnie25

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Yeah. I was reading the Recrafting the Theory articles again recently, and one thing that occurred to me is while the extreme edges of Hard Control and Rush don't seem to be that well supported yet in the cardpool, Hard Aggro seems to have a good deal of support in plots, characters, and events.  

 

Sometimes matchups in the Core Set feel like Mike Tyson fights, if anyone remembers him, heh.

 

 

It is really hard to have a well rounded cardpool that still managed to push certain types to the extreme. What you see now is a hybrid build of almost every archetype that is leaning towards a certain type like say Greyjoy/Tyrell Rush but in essense are still an Aggro deck with Rush components, it is probably not until the entire cycle is out that we will see more focussed decks.



#100
PatrickHaynes

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(awful name, why not just "Court Connections" - I get embarrassed playing Little Bird when teaching the game).

Is that because of the UK implications of the word "bird"?