227 replies to this topic

[laiyna]

Hi,

 

We had a tournement in Stahleck and I noticed a lot of things. That the meta is now broken was clear for me, we need loads of economy, new cards, etc. Lots of decks are inconsistant, and the game is decided before the first challange is declared, purely on card draw and luck. So 2nd is in a rough shape atm.

 

But 1 card/plot I did notice was insane: Heads on Spikes

 

"When Revealed: Choose an opponent. Discard 1 card at random from that player’s hand. If that card is a character, gain 2 power for your faction and place the discarded character in its owner’s dead pile."

 

In a lot of games you start with a key character in your hand (like Malisandra), and you hope for a dupe, and got something other thats key to you. If you don't you muligan, to try to get it. Then you setup, but wont use that key character, its often better to use it in Marshalling. Not a bad assumption you have 1-3 key characters in hand before the turn starts.

 

Plots are revealed, and Heads on Spikes comes up.

 

Now there is a Random chance that you can go home, even before Marshaling that you can go home, the chance on this is about 30% seeing most decks.

 

There is no chance for revovery on this. No cards are played, no challange has been done. Its also no option to play it becouse then it gets Marched to the Wall (the character is to expensive often to combine it with other characters).

 

Now whats the exact problem:

 

1) Its purely luck based (no player skills needed)

2) There is no save or come back

3) It is not a consistant plot, if you use it does not mean you win the competition

4) Its a game breaking plot (1 to rule them all)

 

Whats the sollution:

Very easily: It should not go to the Graveyard but to the Discard Pile

 

Its still a VERY strong plot, a 30% chance to remove a key character from your opponents hand, but no longer game breaking.

 

Laiyna

 

 

[FedericoFasullo]

I have a strategy against people who play head on pykes on me on the first turn: I ragequit if they pick me an unique (which I play in 3x).

 

Before saying it's a stupid behaviour consider this:

 

if you do not pick an unique your starting plot is really below avarage. Calm over westeros is a good opening, a noble cause allow you to marshal your big guy on T1 (which is an huge advantage). Sneack attack is a claim 2 and it could devastate the opponent in the right situation. Basically you are giving up chances to have a solid good 1st turn to grasp the possibility to MAYBE pick a good card from the opponent. That's just silly because odds are AGAINST this strategy.

 

So I just ragequit. Then we make another match and if my opponent start with head on pykes (and he/she miss my unique) I usually win. It's a very worthy lesson imho. 

 

Final consideration: I agree with every single words of the post from Layina.

[Marginal0]

Why would it be unviable t1? You basically confirm yourself that Noble Cause is one of the best t1 plays. Knowing that, it's actually a good to play Heads on Pikes that early, to have a real chance (55%?) to grab a character. Chances are you grab his big lord/lady, so his plot lowers in value even more. Everybody knows it's all about establishing board control, so the chances of picking a character drop significantly as the game progresses. If you do play HoP, you might as well play it early (t1/t2).

 

When the spoiler appeared I thought it was a broken card. Now I'm experiencing that it's fine, but far from broken, given it's based on randomness. But even if it triggers: if you can't come back from losing one card and 2 power, you probably wouldn't have won that game anyway. There is of course the off chance they pick your Jaime/Tyrion/... with you having another copy in hard (that you couldn't play on setup because of Marched and a lack of a 1/2-drops), but what are those odds? 25% in case it happens (so rather 3%)?

 

So you're right in stating that it's potentially (but conditionally) overpowered. But it doesn't break the game imo. Sometimes you are just unlucky. At Stahleck, I opened with the attachment/location tutor, but it blanked though the deckbuilder had put in enough targets. These things happen.

[nikotinlaus]

I think HoS is way overrated. What people remember is only the times when it hit their key character, not the many times it hit nothing important at all. Especially first turn, where many players end up discarding a card for reserve it often does litteraly nothing, while leaving you with less economy compared to the opponent. It can hit an opponent very hard yes, but it is still not the end of the world. I had one match in the octgn tourney against a quite competent player where he hit my melisandre turn 1 and I still managed to win the game.

So I think the problem is here more one of perceived strength and not real strength at all.

I personally play the plot only when I have a way to set it up (Ghaston Grey or The things I do for love).

[PulseGlazer]

I dislike luck/variance based effects n think it's a dumb card. That said, good players can't and don't really rely on it because they crave consistency. Bad players may get lucky with it, but they're still bad usually, so just primary them and win anyway. Excuse bluntness, just awoke.

[uBaHoB]

This will not be running in few chapter packs.

[Reclusive]

Iv dislike luck/variance based effects n think it's a dumb card. That said, good players can't and don't really on it because they crave consistency. Bad players may get lucky with it, but they're still bad usually, so just primary them and win anyway. Excuse bluntness, just awoke.

 

No, no join the dark side

[aHein]

I don't have so big problem with Heads on spikes because I don't think it is so strong card and players will start to realize it. Chances hitting a key character is quite low and by average your games will go better if you try to lower variance. Trying to establish board with high gold plot or defend military with Calm is much stronger opening by average. I still feel Heads on spikes was a mistake and should have said discard pile.

 

But I agree with a bit broken 2nd edition meta. Most of the games seem to be decided after setup or at least you can pick a very likely winner. Draw plays a huge role and there's very little to do when opponent draws his key cards and you don't draw answers. Agot sometimes feels like Hearthstone for me where options are very limited. I hope gameplay would offer more options&choices where skill would matter. Very limited card pool emphasizes this problem even more which makes all decks quite high variance. However, I feel most of these problems will be fixed with bigger card pool and especially with more plots. I didn't play Agot 1.0 but 60 deck size is something I don't understand because Agot has the least draw of LCGs I have played.

[PulseGlazer]

I don't have so big problem with Heads on spikes because I don't think it is so strong card and players will start to realize it. Chances hitting a key character is quite low and by average your games will go better if you try to lower variance. Trying to establish board with high gold plot or defend military with Calm is much stronger opening by average. I still feel Heads on spikes was a mistake and should have said discard pile.

But I agree with a bit broken 2nd edition meta. Most of the games seem to be decided after setup or at least you can pick a very likely winner. Draw plays a huge role and there's very little to do when opponent draws his key cards and you don't draw answers. Agot sometimes feels like Hearthstone for me where options are very limited. I hope gameplay would offer more options&choices where skill would matter. Very limited card pool emphasizes this problem even more which makes all decks quite high variance. However, I feel most of these problems will be fixed with bigger card pool and especially with more plots. I didn't play Agot 1.0 but 60 deck size is something I don't understand because Agot has the least draw of LCGs I have played.

Valar basically immediately fixes this.

[laiyna]

Just to be sure, I would not mind this plot if you could play around it, or there was a save (discard a cards to place it in the discard instead of the graveyard for example). But now its like Russian Roulette in the current meta. 

[JoeFromCincinnati]

Hi,

 

We had a tournement in Stahleck and I noticed a lot of things. That the meta is now broken was clear for me, we need loads of economy, new cards, etc. Lots of decks are inconsistant, and the game is decided before the first challange is declared, purely on card draw and luck. So 2nd is in a rough shape atm.

 

But 1 card/plot I did notice was insane: Heads on Spikes

 

"When Revealed: Choose an opponent. Discard 1 card at random from that player’s hand. If that card is a character, gain 2 power for your faction and place the discarded character in its owner’s dead pile."

 

In a lot of games you start with a key character in your hand (like Malisandra), and you hope for a dupe, and got something other thats key to you. If you don't you muligan, to try to get it. Then you setup, but wont use that key character, its often better to use it in Marshalling. Not a bad assumption you have 1-3 key characters in hand before the turn starts.

 

Plots are revealed, and Heads on Spikes comes up.

 

Now there is a Random chance that you can go home, even before Marshaling that you can go home, the chance on this is about 30% seeing most decks.

 

There is no chance for revovery on this. No cards are played, no challange has been done. Its also no option to play it becouse then it gets Marched to the Wall (the character is to expensive often to combine it with other characters).

 

Now whats the exact problem:

 

1) Its purely luck based (no player skills needed)

2) There is no save or come back

3) It is not a consistant plot, if you use it does not mean you win the competition

4) Its a game breaking plot (1 to rule them all)

 

Whats the sollution:

Very easily: It should not go to the Graveyard but to the Discard Pile

 

Its still a VERY strong plot, a 30% chance to remove a key character from your opponents hand, but no longer game breaking.

 

Laiyna

 

 

There was a thread a few months ago talking about unhealthy Heads on Spikes is, especially in a tournament environment.

 

I definitely don't disagree with you. On your point about Heads on Spikes anyway.

 

I don't think the meta is broken at all, though. This is actually one of the more balanced games I've played in a while. Games ending before the first challenge also seems like an exaggeration. I mean, yea, if you're playing a Lannister deck and they set up Jaime, a king's road and a reducer and play Tyrion and Tywin on turn 1 with Noble Cause and then dupe all of them...yea, the game is probably over. But that kind of stuff happens so rarely, that it isn't worth discussing.

 

It would be nice if HoS just sent the card to the discard pile. But this is the game we have been saddled with.

 

I personally haven't had many games ruined by Heads on Spikes, but that's mainly because my deck doesn't really rely on too many uniques. As long as I can defend the Wall, I'm happy. The uniques make it easier, but I don't need them.

 

I can definitely understand how, say, a Baratheon Fealty deck would really suffer from losing Mel on turn 1 though. 

 

I guess the designers figured that this plot was the just penalty for relying on one character to win the game for you. Throw in some random luck that can win the game.

 

Isn't that what all card games are anyway? Calculated luck?

 

As others have said, HoS isn't consistent, so most serious gamers don't really play it, unless they are running a rush deck that needs as much power out of its plots as possible.

 

I haven't really seen a deck like that recently.

[theamazingmrg]

Valar basically immediately fixes this.

Valar helps nothing if you still can't draw the pieces you need.

[scantrell24]

What PulseGlazer said. 

 

HoS is a dumb card design-wise, but not broken.

 

Also, while there is some tendency for "snowballing" where whoever takes the early lead usually wins, this 

 

the game is decided before the first challange is declared, purely on card draw and luck. So 2nd is in a rough shape atm.

 

 

is a ridiculous exaggeration.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

The following post contains spoilers on future cards that were leaked (or released? I'm still not clear if FFG liked that or not) from some Czech distributor. If you don't like spoilers, just ignore this post. I'll put the thing in spoiler tags.

 

Spoiler

I'll also point out that there is a plot coming out in the final chapter pack of the Westeros cycle:

 

Close Call

Neutral Plot, 5 Gold, 0 Initiative, 1 Claim, 6 Reserve
Winter.
When revealed: Move a character from you dead pile to your discard pile. Then, if there are no other revealed Winter Plots, draw 1 card.

 

That will help off set the pain of losing a character, either via claim, events or HoS. I think a lot of decks will be running it when it does eventually come out.

[Masterdinadan]

No way to come back? I disagree.
If your deck is only able to win on account of one single character, it's a bad deck. Even without heads on spikes, you are going to sometimes go through games without ever drawing that character you need, making them as good as dead.
Anyway, heads on spikes on turn 1 is a fairly weak play. Even if you hit a character, it isn't that great as the opponent has a full hand and has other options that they can use. You aren't shutting them down - just making them change course.
Heads on spikes in actually much better later in the game, when that power actually means something and when your opponent's hand is so small that the loss of a card has a real effect on their throughout.

[PulseGlazer]

Valar helps nothing if you still can't draw the pieces you need.

Then build me better decks.

[theamazingmrg]

Then build me better decks.

Or at the very least give me more draw so I can draw out of my ****** deck better!

[PulseGlazer]

Or at the very least give me more draw so I can draw out of my ****** deck better!

I hear draw = win

[JoeFromCincinnati]

I hear draw = win

 

I've heard this rumor as well.

[Grimwalker]

HoS is a dumb card design-wise, but not broken.

 

I feel the same about Valar. Always have, always will.

I personally would far and away see them come up with more interesting and skill-based ways to push back on the snowball effect rather than just reprinting the most meta-warping card ever printed. How game-distorting is it? We're still talking about it and it doesn't even exist anymore.