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Card: Wraithguard Revenant: Trigger if Planet Yields No Cards or Resources?

Interrupt Command Resources Cards

Best Answer ktom , 01 December 2015 - 07:08 PM

An interesting question that could get into some serious technicalities. Let's see if this makes sense:

 

The pertinent rules text is on p. 24 of the RRG (the text description for the 2.5 framework box on the timing flowchart):

"When a player wins a command struggle, he may take both, either, or none of that planet’s resource and card bonuses. If a player chooses to take the resource bonus, he must take the exact number of resources (indicated by the resource bonus value and any modifiers) from the token bank and add them to his resource pool. If a player chooses to take the card bonus, he must draw the exact number of cards (indicated by the card bonus value and any modifiers)."

 

There are a couple of important things to recognize here:

1. The option to take both, either or neither of the card and/or resource bonuses initiates when a player wins the command struggle, even if the bonus number is 0. This is because winning command and taking the bonuses are neither card abilities nor triggered by a player, so the rule saying "players cannot trigger abilities that have no potential to change the game state" just doesn't apply to the framework step for resolving command struggles. As such, there is a game effect that initiates and resolves, even when the bonus number is 0.

2. Both Archon's Palace and Wraithguard Revenant interrupt the winning of the command struggle. Canceling (AP) or replacing (WR) the planet bonuses does not remove the triggering condition.

3. WR is a replacement effect (you can tell by the word "instead"). Replacement effects change the way other effects resolve - so in order for them to work, the thing they are replacing has to actually resolve.

 

With those things in mind, it seems to me that yes, you can use Wraithguard Revenant after an opponent uses Archon's Palace, even if the bonus that wasn't canceled is "0."

 

The reason for this is because Archon's Palace only cancels one of the two bonuses. The other is still resolving, which means that there is something for the Revenant to replace. And a bonus of "0" still resolves - even though there would be no possibility of it changing the game state when it resolves - because the option to take the bonuses is initiated by winning the command struggle no matter what the bonus number is. 

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8 replies to this topic

#1
dnapolitano

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Wraithguard Revenant
Interrupt: When you win a command struggle at a [Strongpoint] planet (green), put this unit into play from your discard pile or hand at that planet instead of taking the planet’s card and resource bonuses. 
 
Archon's Palace
Interrupt: When your opponent wins a command struggle, exhaust this support to cancel either the card bonus or the resource bonus of that planet this phase. 
 
Barlus (Green Icon Planet)
Card Bonus: 2
Resource Bonus: 0
 
 
If I win command on Barlus and pass on my interrupt (or opponent has initiative) and then opponent uses Archon's Palace to cancel card bonus from Barlus, can I then trigger Wraithguard Revenant interrupt and in effect pass on taking my 0 card and 0 resource bonus in order to put the Wraithguard Revenant into play?
 


#2
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

An interesting question that could get into some serious technicalities. Let's see if this makes sense:

 

The pertinent rules text is on p. 24 of the RRG (the text description for the 2.5 framework box on the timing flowchart):

"When a player wins a command struggle, he may take both, either, or none of that planet’s resource and card bonuses. If a player chooses to take the resource bonus, he must take the exact number of resources (indicated by the resource bonus value and any modifiers) from the token bank and add them to his resource pool. If a player chooses to take the card bonus, he must draw the exact number of cards (indicated by the card bonus value and any modifiers)."

 

There are a couple of important things to recognize here:

1. The option to take both, either or neither of the card and/or resource bonuses initiates when a player wins the command struggle, even if the bonus number is 0. This is because winning command and taking the bonuses are neither card abilities nor triggered by a player, so the rule saying "players cannot trigger abilities that have no potential to change the game state" just doesn't apply to the framework step for resolving command struggles. As such, there is a game effect that initiates and resolves, even when the bonus number is 0.

2. Both Archon's Palace and Wraithguard Revenant interrupt the winning of the command struggle. Canceling (AP) or replacing (WR) the planet bonuses does not remove the triggering condition.

3. WR is a replacement effect (you can tell by the word "instead"). Replacement effects change the way other effects resolve - so in order for them to work, the thing they are replacing has to actually resolve.

 

With those things in mind, it seems to me that yes, you can use Wraithguard Revenant after an opponent uses Archon's Palace, even if the bonus that wasn't canceled is "0."

 

The reason for this is because Archon's Palace only cancels one of the two bonuses. The other is still resolving, which means that there is something for the Revenant to replace. And a bonus of "0" still resolves - even though there would be no possibility of it changing the game state when it resolves - because the option to take the bonuses is initiated by winning the command struggle no matter what the bonus number is. 


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#3
Eiji

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Wraithguard Revenant says it can be put into play instead of taking the planet's card and resource bonus.  So I read it as a replacement effect for the "Both" option in the 2.5 framework box. 

 

If that is the case then wouldn't Archon's Terror prevent Revenant because you can't take the "Both" option when winning the command struggle?



#4
ktom

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Wraithguard Revenant says it can be put into play instead of taking the planet's card and resource bonus.  So I read it as a replacement effect for the "Both" option in the 2.5 framework box. 

 

If that is the case then wouldn't Archon's Terror prevent Revenant because you can't take the "Both" option when winning the command struggle?

 

Maybe... but if that's the case, it means that the Revenant's Interrupt is being triggered and replacing an option that has not been made yet. Are you saying that someone could trigger the Revenant's Interrupt, and then choose to only take only the "resource" option, thereby not putting the Revenant into play because he didn't take the option to draw cards?

 

Since the triggering condition is "when you win a command struggle," it is the resolution of the command struggle that is being replaced. Archon's Palace does not cancel the entire effects of "when you win a command struggle," so I would say canceling one of the bonuses (and thereby taking away an option in a choice that hasn't been made yet) doesn't stop the overall effect from resolving, and therefore being replaced.



#5
Eiji

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Since the triggering condition is "when you win a command struggle," it is the resolution of the command struggle that is being replaced. Archon's Palace does not cancel the entire effects of "when you win a command struggle," so I would say canceling one of the bonuses (and thereby taking away an option in a choice that hasn't been made yet) doesn't stop the overall effect from resolving, and therefore being replaced.

I see now.  Got it.



#6
ktom

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For clarity and certainty, this answer was checked with FFG. They said:

 

“When a player wins a command struggle, he may take both, either, or none of that planet’s resource and card bonuses.” (RR, page 24, section 2.5)

 
The Wrathguard Revenant replaces the entire option described above, while the cancel only cancels one of the options. Eliminating the possibility of doing one does not prevent you from replacing the entire process. 

 

So just to reiterate, Archon's Palace does NOT stop you from triggering Wraithguard Revenant.



#7
gertat

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Does triggering Wraithguard Revenant you talking 1 card if you have a Void Pirate at that planet?

#8
Kaloo

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Void Pirates and other similar cards don't give you extra cards/resources, but rather increase the bonus yielded by the planet for you. This means that if you choose to cancel the card/resource bonus of the planet you will also lose the modifier provided by the Void Pirate (which is also why Archon's Palace cancels out the additional cards yielded by a Void Pirate as well)



#9
gertat

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Thx





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Interrupt, Command, Resources, Cards