23 replies to this topic

[JoeFromCincinnati]

I played a game recently where I was first player during a turn.

 

I had the Wall out and I had Veteran Builder out.

 

 

The Wall:

The North.
Each [Night's Watch] character you control gets +1 STR.
Forced Reaction: After you lose an unopposed challenge, kneel The Wall
Interrupt: When the challenges phase ends, kneel The Wall to gain 2 power for your faction. 

 

Veteran Builder:

Builder.
No attachments except Weapon.

Action: Sacrifice Veteran Builder to choose and stand a location. 

 

After I was done with my challenges, I passed to my opponent. He won an unopposed challenge, kneeling the Wall.

 

Then, he initiated another challenge.

 

He still had one challenge remaining that he could have conceivably done.

 

But he was not going to win it with the characters I had standing, so he proclaimed that he was done with challenges.

 

I used Veteran builder's action to stand the Wall and gain the two power from the Wall.

 

I was later told that once the active player said he was "done", it should have gone straight into dominance and there was not an action window in which I could have used the action to stand the Wall prior to the end of the challenges phase.

 

I checked the RRG and there is, indeed, not an action window between the final challenge and the end of the challenges phase. However, I have a few questions that, I believe, weren't all that clear to me.

 

1. Is there an action window between challenges? The RRG makes it very obvious that, there is an action window after 4.1, but prior to 4.2. But after the challenge resolves at 4.2.6, it is kind of ambiguous what happens next. In 4.3, it says "if the active player does not initiate further challenges, the next player in player order becomes active player, proceed to "Action Window." If all players have been active player, proceed to 4.4"

 

So, does that mean that after a challenge, the active player may immediately proceed to the end of the challenges phase, without an action window opening again? 

 

Or does it go back to 4.2, where there is an action window and then, after the action window, the active player can proclaim that he is done with challenges?

 

If this is the case, and the active player can just end the challenges phase without actually allowing a new action window to open post challenge, the Veteran builder becomes considerably worse, because the active player, as long as he is second player, can save his unopposed challenge for last, and then immediately go to dominance before the Night's Watch player has a chance to stand his Wall back up.

 

2. If it does, indeed, return to 4.2, as I genuinely hope it does, it is an error of the active player to declare that he is not going to declare any additional challenges prior to allowing me to use any actions, yes? He is not allowed to skip the action window just because he is not going to declare any additional challenges, I imagine...

[Masterdinadan]

You go back to the action window after EVERY challenge (at 4.2.6).

A player can only declare he is done with challenges at 4.2.

So, the correct sequence of events is for the player to finish his second challenge, confirm whether or not you wish to play an action, and only then declare he has no more challenge (at which point no more actions are allowed).

He's not allowed to end a challenge and immediately declare done without giving you an action (if he does and you wanted to play an action, you have to rewind to the action window).

On the other hand, your opponent is not obligated to tell you if he has another challenge until after your chance at actions has passed.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

You go back to the action window after EVERY challenge (at 4.2.6).

A player can only declare he is done with challenges at 4.2.

So, the correct sequence of events is for the player to finish his second challenge, confirm whether or not you wish to play an action, and only then declare he has no more challenge (at which point no more actions are allowed).

He's not allowed to end a challenge and immediately declare done without giving you an action (if he does and you wanted to play an action, you have to rewind to the action window).

On the other hand, your opponent is not obligated to tell you if he has another challenge until after your chance at actions has passed.

 

Of course, but as the active player, he is responsible for ensuring that the action window closes before proceeding to dominance, right?

 

I was the first player, so I have to pass actions before he can pass actions and end the phase.

 

Since he did not check with me that I did not have any actions to perform, he is at fault, as I never expressly said I was passing my actions.

[Masterdinadan]

Right, that's why I said he's technically in violation by declaring end of challenges before you closed the action window.
You could argue that he's not really in violation because he's just announcing his intentions (which is fine) and hasn't actually proceeded to 4.2 yet. But in either case you should be at the action window (rewinding to before the violation or because you never actually left)

[JoeFromCincinnati]

Right, that's why I said he's technically in violation by declaring end of challenges before you closed the action window.
You could argue that he's not really in violation because he's just announcing his intentions (which is fine) and hasn't actually proceeded to 4.2 yet. But in either case you should be at the action window (rewinding to before the violation or because you never actually left)

 

Okay good, that makes it better .

 

Technically, in this particular scenario, if he had given me a chance I would not have used the action before Veteran Builder was my only standing power icon, and he had a power icon, so if I had used the ability, he could have then decided to make a challenge and it be unopposed, kneeling the Wall again.

 

So we both played it improperly, for sure.

 

But I just wanted to take this scenario as an opportunity to confirm that there is, in fact, a guaranteed action window after each challenge.

[ktom]

Best Answer

But I just wanted to take this scenario as an opportunity to confirm that there is, in fact, a guaranteed action window after each challenge.

 

This is technically incorrect.

It is more correct to say there is a guaranteed action window before the active player declares a challenge or passes on the opportunity to do so, not that there is a guaranteed window "after" each challenge. (And that there is no assumption in the timing that just because a player has initiated 3 challenges, they are done for the phase.)

 

Everything above describes how the players kind of blew through the action window before the active player said "no challenge," not how they blew through the window "after" the last challenge resolved. 

 

Of course, but as the active player, he is responsible for ensuring that the action window closes before proceeding to dominance, right?

 

Again, it is more correct to say that as Active Player, he cannot proceed to declaring or passing on his next challenge until the action window closes.

 

As awkward as it sounds, it behooves folks to say, "any pre-challenge actions"? before going on to declare or pass on your next challenge.

 

Your scenario should have progressed in one of two ways:

 

Option #1:

Active Player: Any pre-challenge actions?

You: No.

Active Player: Me neither. (Window closes here.) I pass on my next challenge.

You: I trigger Veteran Builder.

Active Player: Nope. There are no more action windows before the end of the phase.

 

Option #2:

Active Player: I pass on my next challenge.

You: I had actions. You jumped the gun.

Active Player: Sorry about that. Rewind. What have you got?

You: I trigger Veteran Builder.

Active Player: Cool. Anything else?

You: Nope.

Active Player: Me neither. (Window closes here.) Then I declare a power challenge.

You: Hey! You passed on your next challenge!

Active Player: Yeah, but if we rewind for you, we rewind for me, too. That pass doesn't count.

 

See the difference between that an an action window after a challenge is declared or passed?

[JoeFromCincinnati]

This is technically incorrect.

It is more correct to say there is a guaranteed action window before the active player declares a challenge or passes on the opportunity to do so, not that there is a guaranteed window "after" each challenge. (And that there is no assumption in the timing that just because a player has initiated 3 challenges, they are done for the phase.)

 

Everything above describes how the players kind of blew through the action window before the active player said "no challenge," not how they blew through the window "after" the last challenge resolved. 

 

 

Again, it is more correct to say that as Active Player, he cannot proceed to declaring or passing on his next challenge until the action window closes.

 

As awkward as it sounds, it behooves folks to say, "any pre-challenge actions"? before going on to declare or pass on your next challenge.

 

Your scenario should have progressed in one of two ways:

 

Option #1:

Active Player: Any pre-challenge actions?

You: No.

Active Player: Me neither. (Window closes here.) I pass on my next challenge.

You: I trigger Veteran Builder.

Active Player: Nope. There are no more action windows before the end of the phase.

 

Option #2:

Active Player: I pass on my next challenge.

You: I had actions. You jumped the gun.

Active Player: Sorry about that. Rewind. What have you got?

You: I trigger Veteran Builder.

Active Player: Cool. Anything else?

You: Nope.

Active Player: Me neither. (Window closes here.) Then I declare a power challenge.

You: Hey! You passed on your next challenge!

Active Player: Yeah, but if we rewind for you, we rewind for me, too. That pass doesn't count.

 

See the difference between that an an action window after a challenge is declared or passed?

 

 

Yea, i came to the same conclusions.

 

I'm glad the active player can't just shoot straight to the end of the challenges phase. I was really worried I'd have to cut Veteran builder from my deck.

[hagarrr]

One question re this:

 

What happens on the final challenge from the second player?

 

There are no challenges after the third challenge, so presumably there is no action window after the resolution of the challenge as there is not a further challenge to be initiated.

 

In Joe's scenario, the only option to sacrifice Veteran Builder would be in the action window after declaring defenders. Meaning if the power challenge was the last challenge, the Veteran Builder would be useless to stand the wall if the wall had previously been knelt?

[JoeFromCincinnati]

One question re this:

 

What happens on the final challenge from the second player?

 

There are no challenges after the third challenge, so presumably there is no action window after the resolution of the challenge as there is not a further challenge to be initiated.

 

In Joe's scenario, the only option to sacrifice Veteran Builder would be in the action window after declaring defenders. Meaning if the power challenge was the last challenge, the Veteran Builder would be useless to stand the wall if the wall had previously been knelt?

 

As far as I can tell, since you can only proceed to 4.3 and 4.4 once you go back to 4.2, there would still be an action phase even after the final challenge of the challenges phase.

 

Because what if, for instance, the active player did all three challenges, but had Olenna's Informant in hand? There would have to be another action window after the third challenge, because only 3 challenges is not an absolute guarantee.

[istaril]

Ktom already explicitly addressed this with the following line "It is more correct to say there is a guaranteed action window before the active player declares a challenge or passes on the opportunity to do so, not that there is a guaranteed window "after" each challenge. (And that there is no assumption in the timing that just because a player has initiated 3 challenges, they are done for the phase.)"

[hagarrr]

I think you are right in this.

 

I think I was incorrect at the weekend to deny my opponent to boost Randyll's strength with Marge once I had made all three challenges. I mistakenly thought there were no more action windows, where in fact there is one prior to me declaring no further challenges.

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[Khudzlin]

Ktom already explicitly addressed this with the following line "It is more correct to say there is a guaranteed action window before the active player declares a challenge or passes on the opportunity to do so, not that there is a guaranteed window "after" each challenge. (And that there is no assumption in the timing that just because a player has initiated 3 challenges, they are done for the phase.)"

 

This would be true even if the active player cannot declare any more challenges (because of Sneak attack, for instance).

[ktom]

It comes down to this:

Players can often predict the outcome of something (even with 100% certainty) because they know what restrictions will be applied when they get to a particular point in the game. But they still have to get to that particular point in the game before it actually happens.

 

For example, with no action windows between the end of the challenge phase and the award of dominance, players almost always know who, if anyone, will get Dominance before the challenge phase ends. But you still have to get through the various framework timing steps between before Dominance is actually won and awarded.

 

Same sort of thing here. You still have to go through the loop to the point where the Active Player says, "I have no challenges," even if you are 99.99% sure that they can have no more challenges.

[uBaHoB]

SOo does this apply to Marshaling as well.

 

Scenario.

I ask my opponent if he has an action and he asks me if I'm done Marshaling? What do we do then.

If I say I'm done does he has action window?

This has always been Grey area in my Meta and their love for kneeling things.

 

Cheers,

Ivan

[ktom]

It sort of applies to Marshaling. The mechanics of the thing are a little different, but you get a similar result.

The Marshaling Phase looks like this:

 

3.1: Marshaling Phase Begins

3.2: Active Player Collects Income (First Player is first Active Player)

PLAYER ACTIONS (all players can trigger card abilities, but only Active Player may marshal cards)

3.3: Next Player becomes Active Player, Return to 3.2. If all players have been Active Player, proceed to 3.4.

3.4: Marshaling Phase Ends.

 

 

So, once the PLAYER ACTIONS window between 3.2 and 3.3 closes for the last player, there are no more action windows (and no more chances to trigger anything) until the Challenge Phase.

 

Like all PLAYER ACTIONS windows, the one between 3.2 and 3.3 closes if all players ever "pass" in a row. So, if the conversation in your Meta is:

• Opponent: I don't trigger anything.
• Last Active Player: I'm done Marshaling (i.e., I don't do anything, either).
• Opponent: Then I trigger X to kneel your guy.

The "opponent" here is cheating. Both statements ("I don't trigger anything" and "I'm done Marshaling") are "passes" on actions. Since both players have passed in a row, the Action Window closes -- and there are no others in the Marshaling Phase.

 

Said another way, once the Last Active Player does something, if the Opponent holds back his Action (i.e., passes), he is running the risk that the Last Active Player will also pass, closing the window.

 

There are two choices when this happens:

 

Option #1:

Last Active Player: I play X.

Opponent: I have nothing. (pass #1)

Last Active Player: I'm done Marshaling. (pass #2, window closes)

Opponent: Then I trigger this to kneel your guy.

Last Active Player: Nope. There was a consecutive pass, the Action Window closed and there are no more action windows before the end of the phase.

 

Option #2:

Last Active Player: I play X.

Opponent: I have nothing. (pass #1)

Last Active Player: I'm done Marshaling. (pass #2, window closes)

Opponent: Then I trigger this to kneel your guy.

Last Active Player: You had your chance, but you passed. There was a consecutive pass, the Action Window closed and there are no more action windows before the end of the phase. But I will agree to rewind (to where pass #1 happened) and let you trigger your kneel.

Opponent: OK. Cool. Thanks. I trigger this and kneel your guy.

Last Active Player: Then I Marshal this.

Opponent: Hey! You said you were done Marshaling!

Last Active Player: Yes, but when we rewound to change your "pass," we went back beyond where I said I was done Marshaling. That pass didn't count.

 

 

Be aware that since this is basic timing on how Action Windows work (as opposed to a "second level" understanding of the timing flow charts the way it is in Challenges), the Last Active Player is probably going to take Option #1 in competitive levels of play. And most TO's will uphold it, saying that the Opponent should know how consecutive passes work.

[actionjohnny]

Sorry to threadomance, but I just wanted to confirm something:

 

After all 3 challenges have been performed by the second player, does it then cycle back to the first step of the challenges cycle before the phase can be closed? I.e. the action window?

 

Example:

 

(Third Challenge)

 

2nd PLayer: I declare a power challenge

1st Player: Unopposed

2P: Any actions?

1P: No.

2P: Okay, I win (UO, Claim etc).

1P: I trigger Veteran Builder to stand the Wall.

 

In this scenario, can the 1p do that? Since the last challenge has been made and there are no more challenges, does it still loop back to the start before the phase closes?

[kaustin]

Sorry to threadomance, but I just wanted to confirm something:

 

After all 3 challenges have been performed by the second player, does it then cycle back to the first step of the challenges cycle before the phase can be closed? I.e. the action window?

 

Example:

 

(Third Challenge)

 

2nd PLayer: I declare a power challenge

1st Player: Unopposed

2P: Any actions?

1P: No.

2P: Okay, I win (UO, Claim etc).

1P: I trigger Veteran Builder to stand the Wall.

 

In this scenario, can the 1p do that? Since the last challenge has been made and there are no more challenges, does it still loop back to the start before the phase closes?

There is no "last challenge" until the challenge phase has ended completely, even if it is 100% for certain that the 2nd player can initiate no more challenges. There is still an action window and Player 1 would be able to do this.

[actionjohnny]

Okay, thanks!

[ktom]

Yep. Technically, it goes like this:

 

2nd Player: I declare a power challenge

1st Player: Unopposed

2P: Any actions?

1P: No.

2P: Okay, I win (UO, Claim etc).

2P: Now that the challenge is resolved, we're back to the pre-challenge window. Any actions?

1P: Aren't you out of challenges?

2P: The basic three, yeah, but I could have card effects that would allow me declare others. But you're first player, so you get the first chance to play or pass before we find out for sure.

1P: I trigger Veteran Builder to stand the Wall.

2P: I pass.

1P: I pass.

2P: Okay, I don't declare any challenges and we jump right to the end of the phase.

[Zigur]

Sorry to threadomance, but I just wanted to confirm something:

 

After all 3 challenges have been performed by the second player, does it then cycle back to the first step of the challenges cycle before the phase can be closed? I.e. the action window?

 

Example:

 

(Third Challenge)

 

2nd PLayer: I declare a power challenge

1st Player: Unopposed

2P: Any actions?

1P: No.

2P: Okay, I win (UO, Claim etc).

1P: I trigger Veteran Builder to stand the Wall.

 

In this scenario, can the 1p do that? Since the last challenge has been made and there are no more challenges, does it still loop back to the start before the phase closes?

 

The (most) relevant RRG section is on page 29:

 

4.2.6 Challenge ends

This step formalizes the end of the challenge. All characters that were participating in the challenge are no longer participating. Proceed to the action window between framework steps 4.1 and 4.2.

 

 

This is a framework action that happens after every challenge, including the "final" challenge.