Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Card: Zarathur and Indomitable

Zarathur Indomitable shielding timing

Best Answer Khudzlin , 22 December 2015 - 11:02 AM

The Deal Damage process goes like this:

 

1. Assign damage: Place damage tokens equal to the amount of damage being dealt next to the unit (or units) being damaged.
2. Shields: For each unit that has been assigned damage, its controller may discard 1 shield card from his hand to prevent an amount of damage to that unit equal to (or up to) the number of shield
icons on the card. Prevented damage is returned to the token bank.
3. Take damage: Any assigned damage that has not been prevented or reassigned by a card effect is now placed on each unit, up to the unit’s remaining hit points. Any excess damage is ignored. If no
damage is taken in this step, no damage has been successfully dealt.

 

Zarathur's ability interrupts #1 (which means it's resolved before it), so by the time you can use shields (#2), the damage has already increased. Indomitable reacts to #1, so it's resolved after it (but before #2). Zarathur's ability doesn't create a separate source of damage, it just increases the damage of an existing source, so you prevent it as damage from a single source (with Indomitable or a single shield card).

Go to the full post »


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1
DragonCat

DragonCat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts

SHIELDING
 
So why exactly does shielding 1 point of dmg from Zath's attack not stop the ability from going off?
 
Like the intuitive logic is that the shield prevents the 1 point of dmg from his attack, so there is no dmg, so Zath's ability does not add a point of dmg. 
 
I mean in any scifi or book or w/e shields "prevents" damage from going through, at all... but that is not how it works in this game... in this game it "reduces" damage.. so technically the damage goes through, and then is reduced... is that correct? They are not really shields, thematically they are auto heals or something?
 
ffg_WHK01_4.jpg
Interrupt: When damage is assigned to an enemy unit at this planet, increase that damage by 1. 
 
So if he attacks for 1 and you shield 1.. you still take 1 dmg from his effect?
 
Indomitable 
 
Does this card shield in a way to stop all damage, or only the 1 damage form his attack... the 2nd point of damage form Zath ability is in fact a different source?
 
ffg_WHK01_25.jpg
After a [SPACE MARINE] unit is assigned damage by an attack, prevent all of that damage.[/size] [/size]



#2
Khudzlin

Khudzlin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1052 posts
✓  Best Answer

The Deal Damage process goes like this:

 

1. Assign damage: Place damage tokens equal to the amount of damage being dealt next to the unit (or units) being damaged.
2. Shields: For each unit that has been assigned damage, its controller may discard 1 shield card from his hand to prevent an amount of damage to that unit equal to (or up to) the number of shield
icons on the card. Prevented damage is returned to the token bank.
3. Take damage: Any assigned damage that has not been prevented or reassigned by a card effect is now placed on each unit, up to the unit’s remaining hit points. Any excess damage is ignored. If no
damage is taken in this step, no damage has been successfully dealt.

 

Zarathur's ability interrupts #1 (which means it's resolved before it), so by the time you can use shields (#2), the damage has already increased. Indomitable reacts to #1, so it's resolved after it (but before #2). Zarathur's ability doesn't create a separate source of damage, it just increases the damage of an existing source, so you prevent it as damage from a single source (with Indomitable or a single shield card).



#3
DragonCat

DragonCat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts

so Indomitable would stop all damage, and 1 point of shield would let through 1 point of damage form Zath's attack?



#4
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts
That is the result, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you only understand it as "Indomitable stops all damage and shielding 1 lets through 1 from Zarathur's attack" instead of knowing/applying the underlying timing rules. These results are actually quite intuitive based on the rules for dealing damage and the timing of Interrupts and Reactions that Khufzlin describes.

#5
DragonCat

DragonCat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts

These results are actually quite intuitive\

 

actually no.... it is the opposite of intuitive. There is a terrible thematic disconnect between the idea of "shields" and the way shields work in this game.

 

Ask anyone how shields function in a scifi and they will tell you they "prevent damage" but that is not how shields work in this game. In this game, the shields actually heal damage, but every point of damage still gets through.. they are not how anyone would naturally assume "shields" to function.



#6
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts

The results are intuitive in relation to the mechanics of the game. If you know the one, you are not surprised by the outcome of the other.

For a game to be "intuitive," I think players still need to learn the rules and mechanics of the game. The characterization of "intuitive" is more about whether or not those mechanics are applied consistently and with predictable results that do not require minute examination of the rule set in order to determine the outcome of the vast majority of in-game situations.

 

In this game, the shields actually heal damage, but every point of damage still gets through.. they are not how anyone would naturally assume "shields" to function.

 

I don't think that is an accurate characterization of shielding or the process for dealing damage in this game at all.

There are three steps to the "deal damage" process in this game:

1. Assign damage :: In this step, you determine how much damage is coming at a unit. While the damage coming at the unit can be increased or decreased, it is not actually considered to have been applied to the unit yet. We know this because the amount of damage determined in this step does not count against the HP of the unit it has been aimed at.

2. Shields :: In this step, players can reduce the amount of damage coming at a unit - potentially down to 0. 

3. Take/place damage :: In this step, any damage from #1, that is not shielded or otherwise prevented by the end of #2, is actually put on the unit. This is the first time in the entire process where damage actually "hits" the unit and is counted against its HP.

 

Only the damage that makes it through to Step #3 "gets through." Shielding does not "heal" damage (in the sense that you suffer the hit and then have some of the consequences taken away).

 

There are plenty of scifi (and fantasy) properties that use the concept of phasic shields and/or deflector shields -- wherein "shielding" is more of a permeable barrier that reduces the strength of a incoming attack (potentially to meaningless levels) rather than acting as complete-barrier armor that must be pierced before any damage at all gets through.


  • Ywingscum likes this

#7
Tragic

Tragic

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1661 posts

rofl... you can not be serious Ktom : )... There is no arguing against how the shields in this game act all strange in regards to the normal idea of what shields are in general scifi



#8
steinerp

steinerp

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 833 posts

At the risk of taking this topic off topic, (in the hopes of preventing further confusion and possibly solve the root problem), DragonCat- why do you say that shields heal damage? 


  • FedericoFasullo likes this

#9
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts

There is no arguing against how the shields in this game act all strange in regards to the normal idea of what shields are in general scifi

 

Probably so, but not for the reasons implied. ;)


  • Ywingscum and Grimbo like this

#10
deazra

deazra

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 166 posts

rofl... you can not be serious Ktom : )... There is no arguing against how the shields in this game act all strange in regards to the normal idea of what shields are in general scifi

Actually... there is. From Fantasy to Science Fiction "Shields" don't just offer varying degrees of protection from various attacks, but they never guarantee damage immunity in any way. Additionally, taking the "Shields" as a literal type of energy/stuff surrounding the different types of units, fits the theme even less. "Playing a shield" never meant "Surrounding that unit in a scifimagic-protectey blankey". It always meant "Influencing the battle happening right now with this card for a brownie-point value of 1-3"... shielding it from damage. If I shield my wife from a bomb blast the expextation of her walkin' away without a scratch is pretty low. Therefore although your connotation of the word might be somethin akin to "invulnerability", that's just not what it's sayin.

To put it into context: "Shielding" 3 of the 4 points of damage a Snakebite Thug is doing with a little help from his friend Zarathur (some magic enhancement through the Sorcerer's aura), might be the representation of my Warlord dodging out of the Orks' big ass fist, while still getting singed by the aura.

Calling poor imagination on one's part bad theme is lazy and just demonstrates an unwillingness to practice a little suspension of disbelief for the sake of enjoyment.
  • Ywingscum, Pingii and estyles like this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Zarathur, Indomitable, shielding, timing