124 replies to this topic

[sbr036]

playing games where people are trying out first snow of winter, lanni lotc has become really good i feel.  most other houses need to remove good characters but not lanni except Pycelle.

[sparrowhawk]

Has First Snow made opening hands even more high variance? Because it punishes you for good set ups far more than it did in 1E because of reserve.

Opponent opens 4 character 5 card set up. All characters below 4 cost. I open Tywin, reducer, limited. I open First Snow and with my income, reducers and whatever limited I have in hand, opponent is stuffed with his reserve, let alone his board position (that he can protect with Calm).

Then there is Marched post-First Snow. That's what really hurts as you build vertical with dupes and Bodyguards. Anyone running First Snow will run Marched most probably. Which also applies even more pressure on the opening hand you draw or mulligan. Yay!

So now you shouldn't set up 1 character and you shouldn't set-up all characters cost 3 or less. It has really narrowed the acceptable opening hand.

First Snow was a staple in control decks in 1E because it was delay (like Ghaston) and partially resets their weaker military's board state (whilst filling opponent's denuded hand for intrigue). It also removes claimsoak for biting military (like Things I Do). There's currently a reason to have it in many decks.

Greyjoy absolutely loves it most with so many synergies (bursts reserve, Theon great, plays Raiders for Chair and Longships, plays Drowned for priests and ships, chokes with Shipwrights pre-recall, discards Scouts prior turn, 0 cost Risen for claim etc).

Tyrell is really strong with Arbor and Olenna and Lady in Waiting to mitigate it (so strong that in decks with Swords & Judgements, I'm swapping Judgements with Torch because there are plenty of good targets in decks now with Bara's resurgence, Tyrell, Greyjoy, NW, Plaza, Ghaston etc). Though with Ghaston, I assume I have to be first player? (Guess who has never played Torch before.)

Anyway, I'm a bit dismayed at the greater stress on set up that First Snow seems to have created. Or is this just a few off games and nobody else has found this problem?

(Btw, everyone should read Pro Magic player and ex-1E player Pete Wilson's detailed appraisal of the variance in the game and the lottery that's set up. It's in the comments section of this week's Beyond the Wall. This is the ultra-competitive player's take of the game. But maybe FFG are very wise by not aiming for that market but a more casual fun attitude.)

So First Snow - more set up pressure?

[CptPugwash]

I have to agree with everything the hawk has said here.

 

I'm yet to play a game with first snow, but my initial thoughts are i dislike this card with a vengeance.

 

Every single decks will have to built with some sort of answer to first snow -> marched, if not they will be destroyed.

 

1 main house (already pretty good) makes a massive leap clear here, the only question is do all the other 7 houses make backward steps or do any of the others hold their position.

 

Much as I dislike the concept, First Snow also leads to an increase in the argument  for an alternate mulligan. Unless you are playing a heavy location deck (Tyrell Nightswatch Greyjoy being the obvious ones i think) , not finding at least 1 4+ character and at least 1 chud (preferably a reducer) in your opening hand is going to be a nightmare as nearly every deck is now going to run both first snow and marched.  

[jstrong77]

I posted on the Facebook group that First Snow radically changed your evaluation of what a good set up is. Aw people mocked me a bit for making it first snow to be OP.

But I tested a Few of my Lannisters decks presuming my opponent opened with first snow.

I guesstimated that 50% of the time my board would be wiped in the first round vs aggro decks. If I did survive, a turn two Marched would seal the deal.

In the hands ofal a skilled player, First Snow *may* be OP.

[CptPugwash]

I posted on the Facebook group that First Snow radically changed your evaluation of what a good set up is. Aw people mocked me a bit for making it first snow to be OP.

But I tested a Few of my Lannisters decks presuming my opponent opened with first snow.

I guesstimated that 50% of the time my board would be wiped in the first round vs aggro decks. If I did survive, a turn two Marched would seal the deal.

In the hands ofal a skilled player, First Snow *may* be OP.

At least Lannister can open with A Game of Thrones if they anticipate that First Snow leaves the advantage with the opponent.

 

So there you are that's 3 slots almost compulsory for decks that might be weak to Aggro.

[jstrong77]

At least Lannister can open with A Game of Thrones if they anticipate that First Snow leaves the advantage with the opponent.

Yup. Game of Thrones is now compulsory in all of my Lannister decks.

I'm also wondering if Trading with the Pentoshi will also see an uptick as the need to get big dudes out and/or get lots of dudes out the turn post-First Snow becomes a reality.

Can't wait to hear tournament reports from the weekend!

[CptPugwash]

I posted on the Facebook group that First Snow radically changed your evaluation of what a good set up is. Aw people mocked me a bit for making it first snow to be OP.

But I tested a Few of my Lannisters decks presuming my opponent opened with first snow.

I guesstimated that 50% of the time my board would be wiped in the first round vs aggro decks. If I did survive, a turn two Marched would seal the deal.

In the hands ofal a skilled player, First Snow *may* be OP.

In the hands of a bumbling idiot First Snow "may" be OP

 

`

[VonWibble]

Yup. Game of Thrones is now compulsory in all of my Lannister decks.

I'm also wondering if Trading with the Pentoshi will also see an uptick as the need to get big dudes out and/or get lots of dudes out the turn post-First Snow becomes a reality.

The Naval Superiority players like this idea!

I used First Snow in a SC today, Lanni Sun - lots of ambushers and Martell icon control module. I went 2-2 overall, but First Snow was a great card in every game for me. In the games I won it put me in a position where I had 2-3 characters vs their 1-2 (and I had ambushers ready too). In both losses it improved my position and meant they took longer to win (in one case getting a mod win, in a game where I was gradually clawing back and may have won - if we had another half hour or so!).

If you look at my results in general I'm a fairly average player, (in 6 SCs this year I have 2 cuts and a top 8, but also have finished in the bottom half of the field twice) so if it has as big a positive impact as this for me, then its going to be scary in the hands of a stronger player.

Edit - I ran Condemned also, and its really good.

[America]

In my opinion, this is the mistake––You are comparing it to Attainted. I imagine that many people will do this. Or they will figure that since Noble Lineage < Little Bird, then Condemned < Attainted. And since Attainted isn't exactly amazing in its own right, this card must be mediocre at best. After all, Attainted can open up Tywin to being poisoned, and there is no parallel for Condemned, right?

I would take a second look. I think Attainted is decent card, but Condemned is significantly better. Attainted is dead card against non-Intrigue decks (Greyjoy, Stark, Targaryen death, Tyrell knights). Attainted basically loses all value when an opponent has no hand left––something that Lannister can often achieve by turn 2. And while there are certain ways of taking advantage of Intrigue (well... mostly just Tears) opponents can often ignore Intrigue entirely––maybe not seeing a friendly Intrigue icon all game––and still pull through and win. There are popular decks that do this and win tournaments. But I have yet to see any deck that can win without Power icons.

Intrigue claim might often fizzle late-game, but Condemned can shape the game right up until the point where someone declares victory. And whereas Attainted is situationally powerful based on the time and circumstances that you draw it, Condemned strikes me as a card that can always be useful: When you are on the defensive and your board presence is weak, you can thwart an opponent's attempt to win quickly. When you are on the offensive, you can circumvent would-be defenders to close the game out. Even drawing them at the the worst possible time––say, you run 3 Condemned and they're all in your opening hand––you can still put them to use to delay opposing power-gain and prolong the game until you can establish an economy and draw solutions. Condemned is a cheap, recurrent, spammable card without trigger requirements, and one that––in categorical contrast to Attainted––directly undermines the game's most popular route to victory: using Characters to win Power challenges. This basically makes it the epitome of a non-situational card. And considering how much we get razzle-dazzled by cheap and splashable cards that––while powerful––are highly situational (Mare In Heat, Treachery, Seen In Flames, etc), I suspect this one might make a modest bang.


Hmm... well, gosh. I certainly wouldn't stake my entire gaming reputation on it, so I guess I should interpret your conviction as sage wisdom, eh?
But... aren't you the gentleman who rated Winterfell Kennel Master a "1 of 5" ? (Apparently on par with Brandon's Gift?) That same Kennel Master card that seems to have found its way into every winning Stark deck since the day it was released?
I'll admit, I'm inclined to be wary of strong convictions about the future... They can bite back, unexpectedly, not unlike a direwolf who suddenly shows up in an Intrigue challenge. But, indeed, who knows what tomorrow may hold...?

So Savage.

[Alexfrog]

Has First Snow made opening hands even more high variance? Because it punishes you for good set ups far more than it did in 1E because of reserve.

Opponent opens 4 character 5 card set up. All characters below 4 cost. I open Tywin, reducer, limited. I open First Snow and with my income, reducers and whatever limited I have in hand, opponent is stuffed with his reserve, let alone his board position (that he can protect with Calm).

Then there is Marched post-First Snow. That's what really hurts as you build vertical with dupes and Bodyguards. Anyone running First Snow will run Marched most probably. Which also applies even more pressure on the opening hand you draw or mulligan. Yay!

So now you shouldn't set up 1 character and you shouldn't set-up all characters cost 3 or less. It has really narrowed the acceptable opening hand.

First Snow was a staple in control decks in 1E because it was delay (like Ghaston) and partially resets their weaker military's board state (whilst filling opponent's denuded hand for intrigue). It also removes claimsoak for biting military (like Things I Do). There's currently a reason to have it in many decks.

Greyjoy absolutely loves it most with so many synergies (bursts reserve, Theon great, plays Raiders for Chair and Longships, plays Drowned for priests and ships, chokes with Shipwrights pre-recall, discards Scouts prior turn, 0 cost Risen for claim etc).

Tyrell is really strong with Arbor and Olenna and Lady in Waiting to mitigate it (so strong that in decks with Swords & Judgements, I'm swapping Judgements with Torch because there are plenty of good targets in decks now with Bara's resurgence, Tyrell, Greyjoy, NW, Plaza, Ghaston etc). Though with Ghaston, I assume I have to be first player? (Guess who has never played Torch before.)

Anyway, I'm a bit dismayed at the greater stress on set up that First Snow seems to have created. Or is this just a few off games and nobody else has found this problem?

(Btw, everyone should read Pro Magic player and ex-1E player Pete Wilson's detailed appraisal of the variance in the game and the lottery that's set up. It's in the comments section of this week's Beyond the Wall. This is the ultra-competitive player's take of the game. But maybe FFG are very wise by not aiming for that market but a more casual fun attitude.)

So First Snow - more set up pressure?

 

Basically the game has come to a point where the only acceptable setup hand is Tywin Lannister, 1 cost reducer, and Roseroad.

(You need it to be Tywin so that you can First Snow on turn 1 and still get enough gold to play out a second big character who is above $3).

 

I agree that First Snow and Marched to the Wall are harmful to the game because they force a specific type of setup where you have at least one large character and at least one small character, and with the variance of a 7 card draw and just a basic one time mulligan, you will not always get this. 

 

I worry about the future of the game when there is such swinginess, and I also note that most of the swinginess is related to these two plots, and the potential to play them turn 1.

[jeepers]

Basically the game has come to a point where the only acceptable setup hand is Tywin Lannister, 1 cost reducer, and Roseroad.

And once Valar comes out you'll have to make sure to set up duped Twyin.

[Bomb]

Don't new cards like these promote the kind of adaptation one must expect from an LCG?  I don't think any setup should necessarily be automatic.  Even if you setup a bunch of cheap characters, you are still within the means of more card advantage because you have dug deeper into your deck for more options.  First Snow has also made Reserve bonuses a more interesting decision point because of the potential to be hit harder on a First Snow of Winter turn.

 

I probably wouldn't call a card forcing you to adapt to it bad for the game.  There are ways to mitigate or play around the effect, but it's something new to take into account.

[IMABUNNEH]

Once the meta shifts to everyone playing bigger character decks, people will start to drop First Snow because it never hits anything, so people will be able to start playing smaller decks again so people will start including First Snow again.

[Serazu]

And once Valar comes out you'll have to make sure to set up duped Twyin.

 

The return of Valar is obligatory.

[sparrowhawk]

After trying to fully exploit the set-up pressure that First Snow creates, I'm happy to report it's not quite as broken as I first thought. Though it is pretty bad and I do feel the game has been (hopefully temporary) diminished by First Snow. It's not like high end characters were being shunned (like in Conquest) so the game really didn't need it.

 

With just 2 practice games under my belt with NMG cards (Bara Fealty, Targ Fealty), both of which I lost (undermining my confidence to play them), I theorycrafted the deck below to take to a mid-sized (16 person) Store Championship in London yesterday.

 

 

House Greyjoy Fealty

 

Packs: From Core Set (3) to No Middle Ground

 

Plots
1x The First Snow of Winter (No Middle Ground)

1x Marched to the Wall

1x Filthy Accusations

1x Calm Over Westeros

1x Calling the Banners

1x Rise of the Kraken (Taking the Black)

1x Confiscation

 

Characters (32)
3x Iron Islands Fishmonger
3x Lordsport Shipwright
3x Salty Navigator

1x Maester Wendamyr

1x Aeron Damphair
3x Priest of the Drowned God (No Middle Ground)

3x Drowned Men

3x Theon Greyjoy

3x Asha Greyjoy
3x Syrio Forel (The Road to Winterfell)

3x Balon Greyjoy
3x Euron Crow's Eye

 

Locations (18)

1x Great Kraken

1x The Iron Throne
1x The Seastone Chair (Taking the Black)
3x Raiding Longship (The Road to Winterfell)

3x Iron Fleet Scout

3x The Kingsroad
3x The Roseroad
3x Sea Tower

 

Events (10)
3x Put to the Sword
3x Risen from the Sea
2x We Do Not Sow
2x Support of the People (Taking the Black)

 

 

To be precise, it was a slight variant of the above deck as I've since made a few changes to my copy on ThronesDB (on the train journey back today).

 

The concept is pretty obvious, leveraging the blatant synergies of First Snow and Greyjoy. I was tired of playing "long game control" decks and having timed wins or losses in tournaments (most irritating when you are so in control when timed out for a narrow timed loss). I wanted to play a short aggro-rush strategy that suits tournament time limits (for someone as practice-starved as me). There was the slight meta-call in that I wanted a deck with location control as I was anticipating Bara, Greyjoy and especially Tyrell (as JCWamma, a big Tyrell fan boy, was listed to attend and would surely not turn down the strong new Arbor build - alas he was sick on the day).

 

As a counter to opponent's First Snow, I ran Calm and Filthy, both of which are useful after an unsuccessful First Snow opening that did not result in 1 character you then Marched. I anticipate a lot more of both plots from now on.

 

I initially built it as Greyjoy Lion but the point of this new meta is that you want every character of cost 4+ to have a military icon. That and all the internal synergies of the Greyjoy pool (Shipwright chokes opponent before recall, set-up Navigator helps win initiative etc) pulled me back into Fealty. I felt quietly confident that in theory, it could be another SC win with a theorycrafted untested deck...

 

Alas I lost twice to the eventual winner, the second time in the semis. The deck with answers was Targ Lion (expertly piloted by a specialist who has honed his skill with this build, the same opponent I beat in the other London final when he played Targ Lion and I had the better match-up Lanni Sun). Admittedly, in the semis, I calculated I had a full-proof explosive First Snow opening - and it would have been probably game over for him if going second, he didn't marshal Crown of Gold on my duped Syrio. And there lies the plot's issue - it's a gamble that may backfire horrendously (facing the Khal-Jaime combo after a First Snow is never going to end well).

 

However, I do think First Snow is far too strong so that every deck now has to have answers for this strategy. And for every deck to now have to cover this base seems damaging to the game, only limiting deck-building options.

 

Overall though, I was happy with this theory-crafted build as, despite my poor play (my deck-building far exceeds my play skill, which isn't saying much), all but one of my opponents were SC winners (I had highest strength of schedule) and I really enjoyed being given such challenging Regionals practice. I also discovered this Priests + Drowned + Ships build can become sick, able to beat its worst match-up Targ, albeit with a bit of luck (once he Tears Balon and missed my Risen in a 3 card hand then later, after Viserys removed Risen, played Blood then Crown on Balon, only for me to have another Risen - worse Wendamyr that same turn got unopposed to Sow away the Crown).

 

So yes Targ Lion with its extreme high end build seems naturally resistant to First Snow - with a bit of luck (he needed a crucial Hand's Judgement in our Swiss game). Which actually makes me a bit sad as it was already a strong build.

 

What the plots First Snow and Marched do however is pressure opening set-ups to such an extent that the game can be distilled to a make-or-break single turn - where the variance of opposing cards drawn are not evened out like in a long game.

 

I prefer long game because it reduces variance (you eventually draw your good cards). Whilst I was happy to discover that I'm not that slow a player (I'm still too meticulous) because I finished all my games with plenty of time spare, that my past timed-out tournament games were mostly a function of playing longer game strategies, the crapshoot that is a short aggro-rush build really does not sit well with me. First Snow has added so much variance to the game as it is unforgiving to the loser of that critical turn.

 

In 1E, my fave ever build was my first ever, Martell Hollow Hill (soon as I bought all the cards, the new FAQ nerfed it all hence I never ever bothered to play Joust after that, especially when it happened again with Redwyne Straits plot). Knights of the Hollow Hill was an agenda that gave lots of resources (+2 gold, +2 influence) and a +2 initiative boost every turn - but you had no set up (then 5 gold). But in 1E, starting a turn with an empty board was more recoverable (because of Valar and because you can vomit your hand with a 1E gold curve and its non-limited economy). So what Hollow Hill did was remove the variance of set-up. It also reduced the variance of the game as you had inevitability on your side - the longer the game goes, the more likely you are to win.

 

First Snow was a staple opener in Hollow Hill decks (and other control decks). But now we have an extra constraint in starting your first marshal with 9 cards and a plot reserve of 6 usually and cards returning to hand. So First Snow is incredibly doubly punishing for bad draws, where you don't have free events like Risen and Fealty-funded Sow. In all the games I won, my opponent had to not only kill a key character (then I happily Marched his last next turn if I had overlap, or Filthy if I suspected a double Marched or valued my board untouched) but they had to also discard more cards than me.

 

So what's the defence? Well, obviously a big guys build like Targ Lion or Lanni Rose Renown (both with ambush) will be problematic. I also feel Tyrell main are well equipped with Olenna and Arbor, even Lady in Waiting. As for Bara, in my Bara match, even though I opened First Snow and his Summons hit Mel (with a Follower being recalled for reuse), Bara has few expendable characters at cost 4+ and Mel's lack of military hurts. Maybe 3x Davros will need to be the standard for a while.

 

And that's my problem with First Snow. It doesn't open up deck-building options but rather limits your deck-building severely. And any card that does that is greatly diminishing the aspect of the game I like most - theorycrafting decks.

 

Like 1E Martell's "lose-to-win" theme (frankly ridiculous in its extreme like Quentyn, Venomous Blade, Taste for Blood and Oberyn's Guile), far better executed in cards like The Boneway and Caleotte, First Snow actually punishes players for building decks with good set ups. Which is perverse.

 

This is the first time that I feel the 2E game has been badly damaged by a card (rather than just blemished by casino effects that I now accept as a target market). I now wonder if Valar is in the fast-following Stark deluxe box...

[hagarrr]

You didn't fancy opening with Wraiths followed by a First Snow?

[sparrowhawk]

You didn't fancy opening with Wraiths followed by a First Snow?

 

I did consider it (I mentioned it in this thread's OP) but plot slots are so valuable.

 

First Snow (not always my opener) => Filthy / Marched is non-negotiable.

Calm is opener for poor set ups and to defend vs First Snow (also Filthy).

Confiscate on call is essential for Longships & Support => Chair (supported by 2 Sows).

Calling is an economy plot with high initiative (Euron 6 fealty is supported by 2 Sows).

Rise => 2 claim no overcommit to Wildfire or closer (longships/stealth easy unopposed)

 

Which plot would I drop for Wraiths?

 

Wraiths was unfairly panned in the reviews (so was Wildling Scout that I love in my theorycrafted Stark Fealty aggro that needs that explosive stealth start for the implosion Sneak x2, Winter, Storm, Marched aggro assault).

 

Anyway, my (unintentionally) long post wasn't about the build (though it is an iconic example of exploiting First Snow). It's more about why on earth they released the card and so damaged the game?

 

It's a worrying throwback to 1E with its ridiculously powerful plots like Fear of Winter (2-5-2 each player can only play or marshall 1 card this turn) or reviewed cards like Wheels within Wheels that go straight into "The Restricted List", a higher tier of super-powerful cards of which you could only play 1. Basically a license to be incredibly sloppy in design.

 

I can only assume they will release the antidote, Valar, in the evergreen Stark deluxe box, as a counterpoint to Stark aggro that may get sick in the lopsided pool.

[Alexfrog]

You didn't fancy opening with Wraiths followed by a First Snow?

The wraiths doesnt even do anything in that scenario.  On the first snow turn peopel are probably going to be discarding.  If you made them discard 2 cards earlier with Wraiths, thats just 2 less cards they are discarding on the snow turn.

[minusthematt]

Am I the only one that likes what First Snow is doing for the game? Don't forget that it comes at the same time as an influx of useful locations. It's just narrowing down your character count so you're not bannering for the "mega-weenie" setup. I find it pretty interesting because it's forcing creative deck building and especially creative in-game tactics. It's meta changing for sure, but it isn't killing the game.

[OldShrimpEyes]

Am I the only one that likes what First Snow is doing for the game? Don't forget that it comes at the same time as an influx of useful locations. It's just narrowing down your character count so you're not bannering for the "mega-weenie" setup. I find it pretty interesting because it's forcing creative deck building and especially creative in-game tactics. It's meta changing for sure, but it isn't killing the game.

You definitely aren't the only one.