28 replies to this topic

[Radix]

I think the difference of card advantage between AGOT and MTG, is that in AGOT there are easy ways to see more of your deck. In MTG, you draw 1 card per turn. In AGOT, you draw 2 per turn and have plots that can tutor or draw you cards. So the cards are not quite as valuable in AGOT. This is reflected in the cards, we have very few board wipes or 2-for-1's. Instead advantage is gained with gold advantage. I use my 1 gold Tears of Lys to kill the 7 gold Robert. It is also gained in what that card could have done.

[sparrowhawk]

I threw this together today.

 

https://www.wardenso...card-advantage/

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Firstly, great article, Joe - thanks for rising to the challenge, sir. You highlight, in a very accessible easy-to-read style, the key difference between card draw and card advantage. And of course you are correct. Remember that old Poll thread about Draw Engines that The Red Keep won? People do get confused that card draw = card advantage. When card draw is a subset of card advantage.

 

However, if it's ok for me to expand on what you wrote, you gave the 2 examples of Targ and Martell actually having poor draw but good card advantage - I believe you missed a few points.

 

 

TARG

 

Let's list the card advantage (not just card draw) that Targ has:

 

(1) Danaerys

 

Targ has a draw engine that is also board presence (so no tempo loss in playing the engine unlike say Lannisport that doesn't win challenges), something involved in challenges, a valuable engine you will protect (e.g. bodyguard), or enhance (e.g. Seal) and she can deliver her insight draw easier than any other insight character (she's STR5, she can gain stealth) and repeatedly using:

 

* Rhaeghal's repeat use of her Insight + win that challenge

* Illyrio's repeat use of her Insight for 2G + win that challenge

* discard a knelt Handmaiden to stand her to win a challenge = exchanging 1C2G for 1C insight + win that challenge

* play Waking on a duped Dany to stand her and win a challenge = exchanging 2C for 1C insight + win that challenge

 

So her winning an intrigue challenge is worth 1C random disruption (avoided threat of losing Dracarys or imposed disruption) and if attacking, can deliver Tears. Whilst winning a power challenge is a 2P swing. However, if she has renown, suddenly winning that extra challenge is worth 1P more too. There is also the benefit of being able to deal -5 burn by using a stand effect as Dracarys lasts the whole phase, after many pumps end. She is a centre piece for Targ (currently) and the bigger your insight character, the more you will draw from it usually (insight on Sam is harder to trigger).

 

(2) Khal Drogo

 

Drogo is proxy card advantage. Because he can impose -2CXG losses per turn on the opponent (X is the cost of that 2 claim). So here I am leveraging relative card advantage. Now during a claim 2 turn, I can impose -4CXG losses (and the higher the card loss count, the higher the total gold value of X as the cheapest ascending is killed usually).

 

(3) Plaza of Punishment

 

The Plaza is proxy card advantage. Because it enhances the power challenge from being just a 2P swing to also impose a <3 STR chud kill (which has ideally not taken its action yet, like The Tickler). By imposing this extra claim before military, this bites into the X cost of Khal's military claim above.

 

(4) Dracarys (+ Crown of Gold)

 

You note in your article that Dracarys burns through any dupes or bodyguard granting card advantage. However, you pay 1C1G+1 dragon action to get this effect and if it is cancelled for 1C1G, you have lost tempo with that dragon kneel. So there is an extra cost here, like an extra challenge by that dragon. Targ is all about extra challenges that deal even more character attrition. It's gold choke.

 

(5) Viserys

 

A minor benefit but Viserys is also incremental card advantage, able to satisfy Marched or military claim (which you would have to pay anyway) and still impose a card loss on the opponent, just like Bastard Daughter below.

 

(6) Illyrio

 

His ability to turn 2G into a challenge opposed and won (with commensurate benefits like Renown or Insight) is also potentially relative card advantage. Because we've seen that actions are valuable, often more than 2G. If Ilyrio defends intrigue and then stands himself to successfully intrigue the opponent, it's exchanging 2G into 1C relative card advantage (with ancillary benefits like +1P unopposed, triggers Tears etc.). But Illyrio is really a tempo piece because he converts gold into an extra action.

 

Out of all these features, only Dany has "card draw". But the first five are all examples card tempo = relative card advantage.

 

 

MARTELL

 

There are similarities between Martell and Targ but also key differences.

 

(1) Doran

 

Whilst Doran also has the Insight keyword, he is not as strong as Dany (4 STR for Dracarys, Confinement, Consolidation) and does not have all the support for repeat use that Dany has above. But what he does is grant tempo to other Martell nobles - the tempo of being able to win challenges with less investment (because of the STR pump). Dany does this as well with her global -1 whilst standing. Doran suffers because he currently only boosts a tiny subset. In a world where every other Martell card is a noble, Doran would be far better. If future nobles reference STR like Quentyn and Oberyn, his stock rises.

 

(2) Arianne

 

What Arianne gives is an extra action (she is recalled knelt), an extra surprise body on a "loan" - as you have to pay to marshal her next turn (but maybe you have plenty of reducers for her, unlike that body). Enter play effects can be leveraged like Areo and Informer too, as well as surprise dupes without losing her - useful as opponent may have overcommitted to winning that military challenge as outwardly your claim seemed to be more expensive. Whilst the tempo benefit of Nymeria is clear, able to generate a 2 challenge swing, Arianne is an example of Work Compression - you could not afford both her and Nymeria in that same turn for a devastating challenge phase (because tempo advantage is cumulative; gained now, it carries over to future turns). And winning military or intrigue challenges in attack or defence is relative card advantage, imposing or avoiding claim.

 

(3) Sunspear

 

Just like Plaza, Sunspear is a claim raiser, hence repeatable card advantage (unfortunately far more conditional, initiative and losing required). If you impose 1 card intrigue and I impose 2 intrigue in return with Arianne, its +1C to me. But if I then recall her to bring in Olenna's Informant for another unexpected unopposed intrigue challenge, that's another +2C +1P for me. Sam Bratz's deck leveraged this and A Clash of Kings by losing 1P to gain 6P (but your article is about the commodity C so I will try to avoid bringing in the other resources, even though the game is about favourable exchanges between these resources).

 

(4) Ghaston Grey

 

You focus on Martell's version of Dracarys that is Ghaston Grey (they both hurt dupes). This is nominal card disadvantage. But what you are exchanging is 1C2G for the gold cost of that character (plus 1C per dupe lost + gold value of any non-terminal attachments on it + any power accrued on it). Ghaston Grey is pure tempo, exchanging 1 combination of resources (1C2G) for various benefits in others. Now, combined with Martell's strength in intrigue to remove that card from being replayed, or just the lack of income left in the plot deck to marshal Dany, Khal and then Dany again, the ability to deter the opponent from not protecting key characters with dupes thus making them vulnerable to Tears (that Martell can deliver on anyone), there is plenty of value in this ability, let alone to totally change the power race. Ghaston Grey is powerful tempo loss that you can invest in one turn to spend in another (the definition of Work Compression).

 

(5) Greenblood Trader

 

This is a 0C2G action generator (she can initiate an intrigue challenge provoking a counter-action of 2STR+ intrigue icon else she generates 1C relative card advantage) and once knelt, she also satisfies claim soak, having not cost you a card. But her draw is better than a cantrip, it's choose best of 2 cards, ideal for assembling combos (e.g. Arianne + Areo) or to secretly find high impact cards (e.g. Varys) - whilst giving information of the card you won't draw (bottom of your deck). So she negates an occasion when you would have been down 1C due to military claim whilst posing a threat that requires an action to counter, probably by a more expensive character.

 

 (6) Bastard Daughter

 

Here's a topical example from another house using similar intrigue approach - the recently spoiled Bastard Daughter.

So for 2 gold, I can block MIL so no unopposed, trade that card for a random card and I am able to trigger lose challenge benefits like Sunspear. Sounds good to me.

 

You can't win all 6 challenges - you don't have the resources to do so. In addition, you gain lose benefits from challenges. So here is a card that allows you to lose 1C2G for 1C random (value random as 2G) and trigger lose benefits such as Sunspear. Which now gives your military claim +1CXG benefit. Again relative card advantage, a pragmatic eye-for-an-eye reprisal.

 

 

So I'd say (and I'm happy to be proved wrong) Targ has plenty of examples of Relative Card Advantage (by using incremental claim and repeat insight mostly). Whilst Martell is more about tempo - the concept of a burst actions surge, of cards like The Long Plan, Arianne, Sunspear and Ghaston Grey, these are great examples of Work Compression, of taking a tempo loss now for burst additional tempo later (much like saving your Kingsroad to move economy across turns). Even Doran is an example of poor card draw compared to Dany's draw potential (she can draw 4 in a turn).

 

I really enjoyed reading your article, Joe. And I believe that your accessible style will have far more impact on the hobby than mine in explaining to the majority casual players the difference between card draw and card advantage. But what we see here is that Targ has card tempo (by imposing extra paid card loss pressure) and Martell has action tempo (by being able to do so much in a tiny burst period). And as we've seen, tempo is quite a complex topic that encompasses many aspects of the game - of which card tempo is one.

 

You have a great site, Joe (those who have not visited are urged to click on the link above), and your podcast interesting. It's great you actually started to write more content right after that "paucity of written content" thread - and I'm certainly looking forward to reading (and hearing) more from you.

 

And please see a therapist about your Night's Watch obsession! It's not healthy....

[igotoofast]

This isn't a full response to the topic of representing, but its meant as more fodder for the person who does eventually write about the topic. Most aspects of representing exist in play likevthe example sparrowhawk gave in the original post, or in targ fealty kneeling their house card for event reduction at the beginning of every challenges phase to bluff the dracarys. Effectively representing is using your public information to mislead or threaten about your hidden information. It almost always involves a meta understanding of what to expect.

A more complex aspect of this is playing varys and keeping him protected on thevfield to force the opponentvto keep a small board. Another version is using shadow black lane to pull a powerful event like treachery, growing strong, or ours is the fury to threaten to the opponent their potential play and influencevtheir decisions.


However its possible to deck build around representing rather than only relying on play. This focuses on what the opponent assumes from seeing your faction and agenda. By playing unconventions cards, like tol in stark, greyjoy and baratheon, i can get tears of lys off because my opponent isnt properly assessing the threat. Similarly i can avoid playing conventional cards, like lannister control does not even need to run tol anymore because the threat will often be there regardless. Finally as we get more options some staple cards can become red herrings. For example almost all baratheon decks rely on melisandre rhollor kneel. However at this point in the card pool its possible to have other decks styles but red god kneel is certainly most popular. Most people when playing against baratheon will see mel and inefficiently invest in shutting her down as fast as possible to stop her devastating effects, and thus shutting down a large part of a mel deck. But if i play her without committing my deck to the kneel module, i can take advantage of my opponents inefficientvdecision making without too much of a set back.


thats all i have to say about representing.

[Rayno]

Tempo

 

  I feel that deck that wants to exploit tempo will want to almost always want to go first.  What I call Tempo in this regard is the player who dictates which challenges are contested and in which order.  In this game within a game once you begin the challenges phase you are under no obligation to start with the scary threat first.  Its almost always better to prod and poke with smaller strength challenges and see who is committed to oppose them.  If your opponent over commits to one of the smaller challenges you have taken defenders away from him later in the turn.  If s/he under commits or doesn't oppose at all you have taken free power or cards and have options to play events like Tears of Lyss or We Do Not Sow.  If  s/he over commit then you have take defenders away from your next, often more important attacks.  A perfect tempo situation would be this:  I have ended my challenges phase after winning all three challenges and my opponent either had to kneel all of his characters to defend or s/he was forced to defend in such a way that my remaining characters can stifle his attempt at retribution.  Its rare to get a perfect tempo turn so a goal may be adjusted.  Perhaps just aim to force them to defend in an unfavorable way such as force Jamie Lannister to kneel to defend.

  A defining Tempo situation would be a Greyjoy player attacking with one character, lets suppose a Black Winds Crew, early in the turn.  This is not a hugely scary attack and most decks will defend it rather easily.  Just to make it interesting, lets say the Greyjoy player has three gold, the seaston chair, an iron fleet scout and raiding longship in play. This is not an unreasonable turn one or turn two position but it contains so many threat vectors.  From this position the attacker could play Put to the Sword or We Do Not Sow.  The Seastone Chair must also be taken into account.  What makes it a tempo play is that to correctly defend against this attack the defender will need to commit three characters if they commit any at all and if they do commit three the Greyjoy player can effectively call off the attack and invest no further resources where as the defender has knelt three characters.  The defender has been forced to commit resources essentially prior to the attacker. 

  This is the power of Tempo in this game: to force your opponent into situations where the correct play is nevertheless a bad option.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

Firstly, great article, Joe - thanks for rising to the challenge, sir. You highlight, in a very accessible easy-to-read style, the key difference between card draw and card advantage. And of course you are correct. Remember that old Poll thread about Draw Engines that The Red Keep won? People do get confused that card draw = card advantage. When card draw is a subset of card advantage.

 

However, if it's ok for me to expand on what you wrote, you gave the 2 examples of Targ and Martell actually having poor draw but good card advantage - I believe you missed a few points.

 

 

TARG

 

Let's list the card advantage (not just card draw) that Targ has:

 

(1) Danaerys

 

Targ has a draw engine that is also board presence (so no tempo loss in playing the engine unlike say Lannisport that doesn't win challenges), something involved in challenges, a valuable engine you will protect (e.g. bodyguard), or enhance (e.g. Seal) and she can deliver her insight draw easier than any other insight character (she's STR5, she can gain stealth) and repeatedly using:

 

* Rhaeghal's repeat use of her Insight + win that challenge

* Illyrio's repeat use of her Insight for 2G + win that challenge

* discard a knelt Handmaiden to stand her to win a challenge = exchanging 1C2G for 1C insight + win that challenge

* play Waking on a duped Dany to stand her and win a challenge = exchanging 2C for 1C insight + win that challenge

 

So her winning an intrigue challenge is worth 1C random disruption (avoided threat of losing Dracarys or imposed disruption) and if attacking, can deliver Tears. Whilst winning a power challenge is a 2P swing. However, if she has renown, suddenly winning that extra challenge is worth 1P more too. There is also the benefit of being able to deal -5 burn by using a stand effect as Dracarys lasts the whole phase, after many pumps end. She is a centre piece for Targ (currently) and the bigger your insight character, the more you will draw from it usually (insight on Sam is harder to trigger).

 

(2) Khal Drogo

 

Drogo is proxy card advantage. Because he can impose -2CXG losses per turn on the opponent (X is the cost of that 2 claim). So here I am leveraging relative card advantage. Now during a claim 2 turn, I can impose -4CXG losses (and the higher the card loss count, the higher the total gold value of X as the cheapest ascending is killed usually).

 

(3) Plaza of Punishment

 

The Plaza is proxy card advantage. Because it enhances the power challenge from being just a 2P swing to also impose a <3 STR chud kill (which has ideally not taken its action yet, like The Tickler). By imposing this extra claim before military, this bites into the X cost of Khal's military claim above.

 

(4) Dracarys (+ Crown of Gold)

 

You note in your article that Dracarys burns through any dupes or bodyguard granting card advantage. However, you pay 1C1G+1 dragon action to get this effect and if it is cancelled for 1C1G, you have lost tempo with that dragon kneel. So there is an extra cost here, like an extra challenge by that dragon. Targ is all about extra challenges that deal even more character attrition. It's gold choke.

 

(5) Viserys

 

A minor benefit but Viserys is also incremental card advantage, able to satisfy Marched or military claim (which you would have to pay anyway) and still impose a card loss on the opponent, just like Bastard Daughter below.

 

(6) Illyrio

 

His ability to turn 2G into a challenge opposed and won (with commensurate benefits like Renown or Insight) is also potentially relative card advantage. Because we've seen that actions are valuable, often more than 2G. If Ilyrio defends intrigue and then stands himself to successfully intrigue the opponent, it's exchanging 2G into 1C relative card advantage (with ancillary benefits like +1P unopposed, triggers Tears etc.). But Illyrio is really a tempo piece because he converts gold into an extra action.

 

Out of all these features, only Dany has "card draw". But the first five are all examples card tempo = relative card advantage.

 

 

MARTELL

 

There are similarities between Martell and Targ but also key differences.

 

(1) Doran

 

Whilst Doran also has the Insight keyword, he is not as strong as Dany (4 STR for Dracarys, Confinement, Consolidation) and does not have all the support for repeat use that Dany has above. But what he does is grant tempo to other Martell nobles - the tempo of being able to win challenges with less investment (because of the STR pump). Dany does this as well with her global -1 whilst standing. Doran suffers because he currently only boosts a tiny subset. In a world where every other Martell card is a noble, Doran would be far better. If future nobles reference STR like Quentyn and Oberyn, his stock rises.

 

(2) Arianne

 

What Arianne gives is an extra action (she is recalled knelt), an extra surprise body on a "loan" - as you have to pay to marshal her next turn (but maybe you have plenty of reducers for her, unlike that body). Enter play effects can be leveraged like Areo and Informer too, as well as surprise dupes without losing her - useful as opponent may have overcommitted to winning that military challenge as outwardly your claim seemed to be more expensive. Whilst the tempo benefit of Nymeria is clear, able to generate a 2 challenge swing, Arianne is an example of Work Compression - you could not afford both her and Nymeria in that same turn for a devastating challenge phase (because tempo advantage is cumulative; gained now, it carries over to future turns). And winning military or intrigue challenges in attack or defence is relative card advantage, imposing or avoiding claim.

 

(3) Sunspear

 

Just like Plaza, Sunspear is a claim raiser, hence repeatable card advantage (unfortunately far more conditional, initiative and losing required). If you impose 1 card intrigue and I impose 2 intrigue in return with Arianne, its +1C to me. But if I then recall her to bring in Olenna's Informant for another unexpected unopposed intrigue challenge, that's another +2C +1P for me. Sam Bratz's deck leveraged this and A Clash of Kings by losing 1P to gain 6P (but your article is about the commodity C so I will try to avoid bringing in the other resources, even though the game is about favourable exchanges between these resources).

 

(4) Ghaston Grey

 

You focus on Martell's version of Dracarys that is Ghaston Grey (they both hurt dupes). This is nominal card disadvantage. But what you are exchanging is 1C2G for the gold cost of that character (plus 1C per dupe lost + gold value of any non-terminal attachments on it + any power accrued on it). Ghaston Grey is pure tempo, exchanging 1 combination of resources (1C2G) for various benefits in others. Now, combined with Martell's strength in intrigue to remove that card from being replayed, or just the lack of income left in the plot deck to marshal Dany, Khal and then Dany again, the ability to deter the opponent from not protecting key characters with dupes thus making them vulnerable to Tears (that Martell can deliver on anyone), there is plenty of value in this ability, let alone to totally change the power race. Ghaston Grey is powerful tempo loss that you can invest in one turn to spend in another (the definition of Work Compression).

 

(5) Greenblood Trader

 

This is a 0C2G action generator (she can initiate an intrigue challenge provoking a counter-action of 2STR+ intrigue icon else she generates 1C relative card advantage) and once knelt, she also satisfies claim soak, having not cost you a card. But her draw is better than a cantrip, it's choose best of 2 cards, ideal for assembling combos (e.g. Arianne + Areo) or to secretly find high impact cards (e.g. Varys) - whilst giving information of the card you won't draw (bottom of your deck). So she negates an occasion when you would have been down 1C due to military claim whilst posing a threat that requires an action to counter, probably by a more expensive character.

 

 (6) Bastard Daughter

 

 

You can't win all 6 challenges - you don't have the resources to do so. In addition, you gain lose benefits from challenges. So here is a card that allows you to lose 1C2G for 1C random (value random as 2G) and trigger lose benefits such as Sunspear. Which now gives your military claim +1CXG benefit. Again relative card advantage, a pragmatic eye-for-an-eye reprisal.

 

 

So I'd say (and I'm happy to be proved wrong) Targ has plenty of examples of Relative Card Advantage (by using incremental claim and repeat insight mostly). Whilst Martell is more about tempo - the concept of a burst actions surge, of cards like The Long Plan, Arianne, Sunspear and Ghaston Grey, these are great examples of Work Compression, of taking a tempo loss now for burst additional tempo later (much like saving your Kingsroad to move economy across turns). Even Doran is an example of poor card draw compared to Dany's draw potential (she can draw 4 in a turn).

 

I really enjoyed reading your article, Joe. And I believe that your accessible style will have far more impact on the hobby than mine in explaining to the majority casual players the difference between card draw and card advantage. But what we see here is that Targ has card tempo (by imposing extra paid card loss pressure) and Martell has action tempo (by being able to do so much in a tiny burst period). And as we've seen, tempo is quite a complex topic that encompasses many aspects of the game - of which card tempo is one.

 

You have a great site, Joe (those who have not visited are urged to click on the link above), and your podcast interesting. It's great you actually started to write more content right after that "paucity of written content" thread - and I'm certainly looking forward to reading (and hearing) more from you.

 

And please see a therapist about your Night's Watch obsession! It's not healthy....

 

 

Thank you for the compliments . The truth is you are way better at this than me haha. I can't disagree with a thing you said XD.

 

The lines can easily get blurred between card advantage, tempo and work compression. They all kind of go hand in hand so often times it's easier to just put them in one big group of "advantage" haha.

 

And you'd have to drag me to that therapist . The Night's Watch is the best part of this game .

[agktmte]

Tempo

 

  I feel that deck that wants to exploit tempo will want to almost always want to go first.  What I call Tempo in this regard is the player who dictates which challenges are contested and in which order.  In this game within a game once you begin the challenges phase you are under no obligation to start with the scary threat first.  Its almost always better to prod and poke with smaller strength challenges and see who is committed to oppose them.  If your opponent over commits to one of the smaller challenges you have taken defenders away from him later in the turn.  If s/he under commits or doesn't oppose at all you have taken free power or cards and have options to play events like Tears of Lyss or We Do Not Sow.  If  s/he over commit then you have take defenders away from your next, often more important attacks.  A perfect tempo situation would be this:  I have ended my challenges phase after winning all three challenges and my opponent either had to kneel all of his characters to defend or s/he was forced to defend in such a way that my remaining characters can stifle his attempt at retribution.  Its rare to get a perfect tempo turn so a goal may be adjusted.  Perhaps just aim to force them to defend in an unfavorable way such as force Jamie Lannister to kneel to defend.

  A defining Tempo situation would be a Greyjoy player attacking with one character, lets suppose a Black Winds Crew, early in the turn.  This is not a hugely scary attack and most decks will defend it rather easily.  Just to make it interesting, lets say the Greyjoy player has three gold, the seaston chair, an iron fleet scout and raiding longship in play. This is not an unreasonable turn one or turn two position but it contains so many threat vectors.  From this position the attacker could play Put to the Sword or We Do Not Sow.  The Seastone Chair must also be taken into account.  What makes it a tempo play is that to correctly defend against this attack the defender will need to commit three characters if they commit any at all and if they do commit three the Greyjoy player can effectively call off the attack and invest no further resources where as the defender has knelt three characters.  The defender has been forced to commit resources essentially prior to the attacker. 

  This is the power of Tempo in this game: to force your opponent into situations where the correct play is nevertheless a bad option.

 

I think this is a great understanding of something like "challenge" or "action" tempo. As opposed to the other forms (economic, cards, power). It's interesting because I think only GJ can pull this off effectively (as your example suggests you know!), because of the UO win triggers. No other factions have good ways of punishing opponents that just let you have the challenges UO and then retaliate even harder.

[igotoofast]

Baratheon also has cool but less good tempo options in "in the name of your king" and "ours is the fury" attacking baratheon can turn into wasted actions or give them actions if they have the right cards and the gold to play them.

[sparrowhawk]

I think the problem we have here is that tempo means different things to different people. The widest definition (as per the Magic wikipedia link) is that it covers all these different resources: economic advantage like Akgktme wrote, card advantage like Joe wrote and challenge advantage like Rayno wrote where the humble Black Wind's Crew requires such a large defence due to its supporting cards (which you invested in, they didn't come free but have repeat use for ROI) and threats represented by 2 gold, +5 military and unopposed Chair. And then everyone has their own more specialised idea of what is tempo. Mine is "temporary disadvantage for longterm gain" (like paying 2 for my only Iron Throne that doesn't improve my board). Tempo gives me reassurance to include cards which, on the face of it, don't net me card parity, gold advantage or power surge. How far you take it (Hear Me Roar! etc) is a matter of personal play style but these inefficient cards have a function. The designers are not idiots and while there are good reasons to have Bad Cards in a CCG explained here, in an LCG it should be a spectrum of mainstream and niche strategy cards.

So let's introduce another complementary concept (that may surprise those jaded with card gaming theory).

"Position Advantage"

So here's the thing. What Rayno describes above, the "naval leverage" of an unused Iron Fleet Scout or Margaery or Kennel Master or Castle Black, a known factor (not a secret trick like Growing Strong or Widow's Wail) that provokes an over-commit, is what I consider "positioning" in Thrones.

What? Positioning? Thrones doesn't have positioning like Chess with forks and skewers! Yes, some card games have position (e.g. Conquest) but most card games are based on a shared abstract arena. Position is a board game concept surely?

Oh, but I believe Thrones has position. Just as tempo (and its subsets) focuses on controlling the rate of flow of resources (superbly described by Radix) so is firmly entrenched on the temporal axis (the clue is in the name), it's about momentum (accumulating with time), it's about out-racing on a resource (C, G, P or icon-strength overlap), it's about an investment that pays dividends in the future with a superior ROI, just as tempo is about time and aiming for a trajectory (either a short-term surge or long-term outlast), there must be something based on the "now" board state and results, that is not concerned with time-based effects. That spatial element is of course position. In Chess, you may sacrifice resource for superior position. So position has value.

And to achieve Position Advantage in an abstract game like Thrones with no board, you need Targeting.

Joe touched on this in his great article (which inspired me to bring this up next) when he wrote:

"When it comes to card advantage, there are three ways a card is gained or lost: by the opponent, at random and by the player. In general, a card advantage chosen by your opponent is worse than a random choice which is worse than one chosen by the player".

I chose my loss (military, Assassin, reserve, Wardens of the West) < random loss (intrigue, Fool, Hound, Gregor, Tickler) < you chose my loss (Chair, Sword, Ice, Seen In Flames, His Viper Eyes).

This holds true against claim 1 for any board of 2+ cards in play or 2+ cards in hand (note 0-1 cards make all methods equal).

Here's a simplistic example. Just claim 1 plots.

Targ have Drogo and Plaza.
They win POW to kill chud, then win 2 MIL, don't dare attack INT (Lannisport draws in defence)
Lanni -3 cards (lowest value)

Lanni have Lannisport and Casterly or Informant (I play Rose)
They win 2 INT
Lanni +2 cards (random value), Targ -2 cards (random value)

So taking into account 2 random card draw each, end of turn Lanni is +1 card (cycling 3 lowest value cards for 4 random cards) and Targ is +0 (cycling 2 random cards for 2 random cards).

So to get an advantage in position, if both decks are equally well-built, well-matched and well-piloted, you must trump the losses being inflicted. Even manipulating the loss (like bounce to remove military claimsoak or create intrigue claimsoak) with tempo cards that scream card disadvantage can net you great advantage in this chain of valuing losses.

So a superior position is often gained by targeting cards in play or hand, or just relying on chance to net you some good hits. But this is just focusing on losses. What about the gains side of things?

Olenna's Cunning > Building Season > Bear and Maiden Fair > The Mander > Draw may be one way of ranking cards that can find The Arbor. These options also target but in a positive constructive way unlike the pseudo-military/intrigue claim examples before. So by stacking the deck with these options, you can outdo the constructive play of your opponent.

As well as Targeting (negative or positive), the other factor I can spot that will give you Position Advantage is Sequencing.

The order that players marshal then initiate challenges (win initiative to decide) and the order which you sequence challenges and their participants and target any stealth is how you gain Position Advantage. This is just superior play and can be learnt with practice. Simple rules of thumb can help (intrigue first vs. Targ or GJ to provoke their Dracarys or hit their Risen unless you have a Tears else generally a successful military first if their chud claim is not a military icon blocker) but the game is too complex to use such crutches (what about Sword in the Darkness vs. For the Watch? Or Sunspear + UUU vs. Martell? Or what if you are playing a multi-challenge focus Crossing deck? Or have Jaime? Or need Tyrion's gold first?). There are no hard and fast rules to sequencing, just "tendencies" like always stealth or icon-removal the monocon to cause him to use a more useful bicon, opening up that bicon's other icon challenge. Leave tricks until the last moment (e.g. let them over-commit to play Put to the Sword before you Seen in Flames to remove the Sword and kneel-neuter their next challenge). So getting this Position Advantage is often down to the sequencing of how you twiddle your cards sideways.

Watching great players play (like Alvaro's Lanni Good Stuff vs. Simoni's Bara Black Sails in that Worlds Final), you can actually visualise the Positioning plays that these players are making in this abstract card game (much like you can see the Positioning that Spacey/Wright are plotting in House of Cards). Alvaro kept a poor set up and suboptimal first plot usage for a ridiculous opening of multiples of a killer tempo event akin to Magic's Unsummon whilst choking out the agenda triggers of his skilful opponent (a 2E equivalent would be predictive delaying Confinement until pre-third challenge vs. Crossing). In another Worlds Final, John Bruno's House of Pain Targ control decimated the opponent's hand with 2x targeted (chosen) removal and full hand knowledge before the first plot phase was over, also pure tempo because his plot had poor income. Like watching a Magic trick where you want to find out how he did it, you study the deck lists and rewind and try to understand how these great players got Position Advantage so seemingly effortlessly.

So Targeting and Sequencing seem to me the keys to obtaining Position Advantage. The great players are great because they have perfected the deep techniques but I firmly believe anyone with a modicum of play skill can improve on basic techniques (that are just too varied and complex to detail here; forums are best for learning strategy, not tactics).

If there are any great techniques that people know on how to obtain Position Advantage, please share. But the reason why 2 players playing identical decks can end up 9-1 is all about one player understanding this concept deeper than the other. Maybe he studied Alvaro's and Bruno's play...

Next on the menu (if anyone wants to tackle it or a prior topic, please do): the value of Knowledge (looking at his hand) and Surprise ("nobody plays that event!").

[OKTarg]

The value of Surprise would be an interesting read.

I remember at my SC thinking about defending against Greyjoy in a certain way...."but if he has a Kraken's Grasp I just get blown out here. What are the odds he has a Grasp?" I calculated that they were less than 10%, and so I defended that particular way, which worked out for me (he didn't run Grasp).

Waking the Dragon, Put to the Torch, and Watcher on the Walls are all great "What if?" events; perhaps Doran's Game also fits the category?