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A case for why Chaos is, in my opinion...

Chaos

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#21
Solaris

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If Chaos is so bad I would like to know an easy way to beat those annoying Zara decks that play almost no units and just sit back punishing you for everything. Feels like I always struggle against that deck and I hate it so much.

 

I think the problem is that Chaos have Zarathur but the other two warlords are almost doormat since they can't really compete against Z's ability. Zarathur is a glass cannon and has low health, but with all the pre-combat actions he is almost impossible to kill unless your opponent made the stupid mistake of exhausting him. Barstool is especially in critical need of special attention like Morn, but the devs seemed to ignore him completely after his release. I think he is condemned to stay in the Urien mode forever.


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#22
kuni667

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Totally disagree with this point. SMs have DPA, Indomitable, and Crushing Blow, all of which you can try to play around but when they actually hit is never a certainty. DE have Klaivex and Archon's. AM has surpressive fire, bolster the defense, Emperor's warrant, and so on. These are all "tricks" that aren't always obvious.

 

Actually the person you quoted is actually correct, almost all events in this game are predictable based on how the gamestate is. You always have to expect every action you just mentioned based on gamestate (and in the event of Barrage you ALWAYS expect they have one) its just a matter of playing around as many as possible as best as you can.

 

I've declined commenting on most of your posts as quite honestly while you are always within your right to voice your opinion I honestly think that you need to go through the card pool one more time along with the strategies of said card pool before you can say that Chaos is in a worse place than any other faction is.

 

Have you read any of the posts on the "Predictable one trick pony" that is Aun'Shi? Or the horrible set (for now?) you get with Urien?

 

Anyway I personally believe that chaos is one of the stronger factions especially depending on who you faction with and the strategies in mind when building your deck. I just think just like Straken you need to play very defensively with the warlord itself and only maximize on the effect when its a key planet and you have shields to back up your offensive strategy for the round.

 

Thank you,

Kuni 


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#23
Jreilly89

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Actually the person you quoted is actually correct, almost all events in this game are predictable based on how the gamestate is. You always have to expect every action you just mentioned based on gamestate (and in the event of Barrage you ALWAYS expect they have one) its just a matter of playing around as many as possible as best as you can.

 

I've declined commenting on most of your posts as quite honestly while you are always within your right to voice your opinion I honestly think that you need to go through the card pool one more time along with the strategies of said card pool before you can say that Chaos is in a worse place than Tao is.

 

Have you read any of the posts on the "Predictable one trick pony" that is Aun'Shi? Or the horrible set (for now?) you get with Urien?

 

Anyway I personally believe that chaos is one of the stronger factions especially depending on who you faction with and the strategies in mind when building your deck. I just think just like Straken you need to play very defensively with the warlord itself and only maximize on the effect when its a key planet and you have shields to back up your offensive strategy for the round.

 

Thank you,

Kuni 

Good points all around. While I agree with Urien, I do have to call you out on Aun'Shi. This gentleman took him to Florida regionals and did pretty well with a nasty Eldar ally deck.

 

http://www.cardgamed...rnament-report/


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#24
kuni667

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Good points all around. While I agree with Urien, I do have to call you out on Aun'Shi. This gentleman took him to Florida regionals and did pretty well with a nasty Eldar ally deck.

 

http://www.cardgamed...rnament-report/

 

I've heard of people attempting things with a variation of this deck but did not know anyone was able to pull it off.

 

I unfortunately can't retract my statement though as while successful in this tournament consistency is what it will come down to. I have had success in tournaments as Aun'shi but it came down to a few factors, meta's knowledge / consistency against Aun'Shi, misplays on opponents part, and card draw (Luck Factor).

 

Again though .. this does make me happy :)


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#25
thedarkmessiah

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If Chaos is so bad I would like to know an easy way to beat those annoying Zara decks that play almost no units and just sit back punishing you for everything. Feels like I always struggle against that deck and I hate it so much.

I am not familiar with that deck archetype. I know of a similar archetype with Ku'Gath often referred to as Dirty Dozen, but I am not familiar with a Zarathur variant.



#26
destrio

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Are you playing in the black crusade league? Zara is third in winter rate and to me for a faction to be bottom tier, you cannot have their warlords winning over 50% in a tournament like this. Each faction has strength and weaknesses and you have some valid points but game balance is looked at as a whole and not at a single faction basis.
Edit: spelling

#27
Etaywah

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I'm an avid Zarathur player and I'd love to weigh in.

 

To give some context, I've won multiple store championships with him, took him to worlds, he's probably my second-highest played warlord (Behind Nazdreg, I like to test Ork stuff a lot) but competitively, he's my go-to guy., but chaos is not the weakest faction, Ork is. Chaos is just close behind, and it's not just because Orks are their ally.

 

The problem with Chaos seems to be because they get held back by his ability, however, they are not shy about giving this damage to their allied factions (and for cheap)

 

Look at SnakeBite Thug. If Snakebite was a Daemon people would probably cry foul. Paying 2 for a 4-ATK unit (that can probably survive to the second round of combat) is crazy good value. Even before the well-costed, high-value 'Ard Boyz Zara was competitive, yet vulnerable; but now her has his own personal bodyguards with high health and 3-attack and 2 command. Great card for Zara, game-changing even. With his Daemon reducers he can afford to put out the 'Ard boyz and some other units, as well. Add in Ammo Depot, Caius Wroth, Ork Kannon, etc etc. you have the conceptual beginning's of a deck that seems incredibly strong on paper.

 

Ork's have some monster ally cards but suffer from average sig-units, below average events and over-costed supports. So why with such a strong ability is Zara still not hitting top-tier?

 

My opinion: The culprit is low-value units and the inherent difficulty in playing Chaos.

 

Zara's deck, sig sqad, tricks and strategies are quite simply not as easy as everyone else's. Chaos is full of trickery and janky-ness. sacrificing units and using Slaanesh's Temptation without knowing their hand and casting Warp storm on your own units, and a bunch of other non-traditional moves make for a hundred little choices in each Chaos game; there are no "optimal plays', only 'good guesses' based off of tons of experience.

 

Mix that with some sub-par 3-cost units, some less-than-average 2 shields and you have the makings of a very ork-like deficiency, specifically: Chaos needs some better cards. Because when you pay the same 3 resources for a Khorne Berzerker that a SM pays for BAV, you cannot afford to lose any more value when you've already lost value playing sub-optimal units.

 

In a game where Gift of Isha, Drop Pod Assault and Preemptive Barrage can win games in a single combat round, sub-part units will not win a game for you.

 

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines and recently Astra Militarum can do something that Chaos, Orks (And in my opinion, Tau) cannot do: They can make mistakes and still recover from those mistakes with high-value events and units. Chaos, Orks and Tau cannot do that.


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#28
destrio

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Etaywah, now here I agree more with your assessment than the initial thread's post. At the same time, I think the focus on Zarathur is misplaced especially with the way the current meta is going. I do agree that Chaos, like Ork, is weak on command due to the low cost unit comparisons with other factions. I also think that Tau is harder to play because they are less event driven than the other factions which might be why you say that those factions are easier to play when making mistakes since you can effect game state in a big way after the command struggle's been resolved.

 

Tau, Ork, and Chaos are definitely factions that need a lot of help from their side factions, but that doesn't mean the faction itself is 'the worst'. The game is being balanced and developed as a whole which is why the devs are probably comfortable with the way individual cards balance against each other cross faction. Just as has been said, Zara can buff his allies card damage quite well which may be why his units aren't doing as much base damage since the devs are taking the warlords and sig squads into account when balancing cards.

 

Now if you want to run a full Chaos single faction deck, I can see how you will have complaints when coming up against similar cards of other factions that do something similar but better, but that's a deck building choice and not a game design balance issue.

 

If anything, I hope to see more cards that change up the command game meta like the newly released Gut and Pillage (you can go to a red and win a battle to gain a ton of resources for future fights), Freebooter Kaptain and STC Fragment. Cards that change the cost curves of decks while not creating an overpowered meta would be great. I feel that since the focus was currently on 0-2 cost units with 1-2 hammers, many decks were forced into building that to win command more reliably than other decks that focused on tricks or early game. AOE cards or event cards that removed units while tapping warlord in the deploy phase like Dakka dakka ended up being a lot weaker to counter swarm decks than I think the devs initially thought. I still try to make Calamity work on occasion but since it triggers after the command/combat phases, the usefulness is not as strong and you have to save 2 resources for it when the damage of the swarm may have already been done.

 

Why talk about the above? Well if that stuff changes, then Chaos as a faction can be reevaluated. Right now their strengths are elites that can be low costed especially with the new scholar unit whereas Dark Eldar elites are a bit lacking. As the design shifts toward elites, the meta will follow.

 

Side note, I want to see more cards that improve traits. Traits like Slaanesh and Nurgle, or cards that buff weak warlords like Straken or Urien/torture. It would add theme and give the devs a chance to allow players to put unique spins to their decks, in effect creating subfactions within a chosen faction.


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#29
Skaak

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Side note, I want to see more cards that improve traits. Traits like Slaanesh and Nurgle, or cards that buff weak warlords like Straken or Urien/torture. It would add theme and give the devs a chance to allow players to put unique spins to their decks, in effect creating subfactions within a chosen faction.

 

It's kind of weird that they haven't already done this, actually. Both Tyranids and Necrons do this a ton (although without as much reliance on keywords). Tyranids, for instance, very clearly have a card pool for Swarmlord, and one for Omega, and the rest is for OOE. Necrons have pretty obvious splits between on cards between "mess with discard" and "profit off slave factions", too.

 

Then Chaos has a ton of keywords, and...nurgling cards that work better with Zarathur.  :huh:



#30
MrWizard

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So, has anyone tried a full-on Chaos Elite build with Daemon and Elite economy (SPA, Promise, STC etc), nine 2 for 2 units (DE allies), Elite protection (Backlash, Fall Back) and movement (Teleportarium)? I haven't tried it, but it seems on paper like it could be strong.

#31
FightingWalloon

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I don't get the Khorne Bezerker sucks, BAV is great argument.

Head up, one-for-one, without other cards being used, Berzerker always beats BAV. Whether the Berzerker has initiative or not, it wins. That is unusual. Many comparisons of like costed units depend on which unit has initiative.

True, units never face off in a vacuum like this, but on its face Khorne Bezerker is not worse than BAV.
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#32
Jamesy

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I don't get the Khorne Bezerker sucks, BAV is great argument.

Head up, one-for-one, without other cards being used, Berzerker always beats BAV. Whether the Berzerker has initiative or not, it wins. That is unusual. Many comparisons of like costed units depend on which unit has initiative.

True, units never face off in a vacuum like this, but on its face Khorne Bezerker is not worse than BAV.


Was going to point this out but never got around to it.

Another interesting point is that under similar circumstances Berzerker always beats Warlock Destructor, where as BAV always loses. Khorne Betserker is just the best common three drop in the cardpool at the moment.

#33
Ulrig

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So, has anyone tried a full-on Chaos Elite build with Daemon and Elite economy (SPA, Promise, STC etc), nine 2 for 2 units (DE allies), Elite protection (Backlash, Fall Back) and movement (Teleportarium)? I haven't tried it, but it seems on paper like it could be strong.

I am currently toying around with a Ba'ar Zul, very heavy elite build.  None of the DE ally units, but has Gut and pillage.  Zul's damage soak ability can really useful keeping your key elite units in play, early in game.  The biggest problem has been eldorath.


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#34
Hayati

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So, has anyone tried a full-on Chaos Elite build with Daemon and Elite economy (SPA, Promise, STC etc), nine 2 for 2 units (DE allies), Elite protection (Backlash, Fall Back) and movement (Teleportarium)? I haven't tried it, but it seems on paper like it could be strong.

 

Yeah pal, I'm running Ku'gath (waiting for Vae) under this kind of variant in fact. Got 3x Rogue, 3x Void, 3x Acolyte, 2x Fanatics, 1x Heretic, 3x Sslyth. Then 3x Possessed, 3x Gleeful, 3x Bloodletter, 3x Teleportarium. It's great fun terrorizing your opponents!

 

Not using all 2 for 2s as it's more costly and Incubus is fragile.



#35
HoopJones

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I go with Zara for Daemons just because I like the 2 cost sig for early game solidarity. Also, shrine of warpflame to recur splintered paths seems very powerful.

#36
Abyssalfury

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I don't get the Khorne Bezerker sucks, BAV is great argument.

Head up, one-for-one, without other cards being used, Berzerker always beats BAV. Whether the Berzerker has initiative or not, it wins. That is unusual. Many comparisons of like costed units depend on which unit has initiative.

True, units never face off in a vacuum like this, but on its face Khorne Bezerker is not worse than BAV.

 

IMO, the issue with Bezerker is two fold. The first is that it rarely quite does exactly what you want - at 2 ATK it's not that threatening (where as 3 ATK generally guarantees you can get at least one point of damage through), but once it does get some damage on it for a higher attack, it probably won't last that long as 4 HP isn't a huge amount. The second reason is because BAV is an SM card, and SM's shtick is amazing combat tricks for their units (ie, it's supported better at it's job).



#37
Asklepios

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IMO, the issue with Bezerker is two fold. The first is that it rarely quite does exactly what you want - at 2 ATK it's not that threatening (where as 3 ATK generally guarantees you can get at least one point of damage through), but once it does get some damage on it for a higher attack, it probably won't last that long as 4 HP isn't a huge amount. The second reason is because BAV is an SM card, and SM's shtick is amazing combat tricks for their units (ie, it's supported better at it's job).

 

Very true, though you can still Infernal Gateway in a Berzerker, and you can use Chaos combat tricks to enhance him: Warpstorm, for example, clears most of the opposition, brings the enemy warlord closer to bloodying, and the attack boost finished the job..



#38
exveer

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So, has anyone tried a full-on Chaos Elite build with Daemon and Elite economy (SPA, Promise, STC etc), nine 2 for 2 units (DE allies), Elite protection (Backlash, Fall Back) and movement (Teleportarium)? I haven't tried it, but it seems on paper like it could be strong.

 

Yes, and it's awesome. STC gave the deck the cost reduction consistency it needed to get over the hump, while Backlash answers the deck's one weakness (I've run the deck off and on since Plaguebeast was released). I've foregone most of the cheap command units for the time being.







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