47 replies to this topic

[Veetek]

So I'm trying to come up with an exact explanation for the interaction between non-necron Deep Strike units and the enslavement dial. Note that I'm assuming that the designer's intent is that Necrons can't simply bypass the enslavement dial by deploying units into reserve. If I'm wrong, disregard the following rambling.


The Legions of Death rules insert says (paraphrasing, as I don't have the English insert at hand):

The Necron player can deploy or put into play, aside from Necron and neutral cards, only cards from a faction that matches his enslaved faction. 

The recently spoiled rules insert from the Jungles of Nectavus says:
Each round, during the deploy phase, a player has the option of using a deployment turn to deploy a card with the Deep Strike keyword to a planet facedown for 1 [Resource] instead of deploying that card normally for it's regular cost. (...) Being in reserve is a game state that means the card is in play but facedown. Cards in reserve do not have any characteristics, including title, cost, text, card type and traits. (...) Units that a player Deep Strikes are in play at the planet where they were in reserve (the unit is not considered to be entering play).

 

So, to get the obvious out of the way: deep striking a unit gets around the enslavement dial, as it's not considered to be entering play, so the limitation doesn't apply. But what about deploying it into reserve?
Does a card still posess it's characteristics (faction included) when the player announces his intent to deploy the card? Presumably so, as this is what allows us to use various card discounters in the first place. If so, I understand that the enslavement dial being set to a different faction would make the player unable to initiate the deployment process at all.

Now, if the above is true, let's jump to a non-Necron related question: can we discount the 1 resource cost of deploying a card into reserve using any discounters that apply to the card characteristics while it's still in hand? To give an example:

Can we discount the 1 resource cost when deploying Valkyris Pattern Jump Pack (attachment) into reserve, while having an Ambush Platform (discount 1 when deploying attachments) in play?
This would obviously tip off our opponent as to what we're deploying, but is it technically possible?

[Khudzlin]

When you deploy a card into reserve, it has no faction or type, so you cannot apply any discount (except a discount specific to deploying into reserve, if such a thing existed). So Necrons can go around the enslavement dial in this way. Good thing the common units with Deep Strike we've seen so far are relatively expensive.

[randomjoe]

I don't know how helpful this is, but the only functional way to do this is to make the deep strike action (When you flip them up) reliant on the dial.  There is no way to check/not cheat if it's the moment of deploy that matters.

[steinerp]

Assuming the above language is correct (I haven't seen it yet).  Cards from a faction other than your enslavement dial, cannot be placed in reserve.  The quoted text says that cards in reserve have no faction, however the card in not in reserve when you are attempting to deploy it, it is in your hand.  Therefore the enslavement rules would forbid you from deploying it as it still has a faction at that point.  

As for the other concerns about cheating.  You could address this by placing an informal marker next to the card indicating what the dial was set to or calling a judge to confirm.    

[ktom]

The recently spoiled rules insert from the Jungles of Nectavus says:

 

Have you got a link for this? Is it the entirety of the Reserve/Deep Strike rules? Particularly considering the ellipses you have in there, there might be information missing that is important to the analysis.

 

Assuming the above language is correct (I haven't seen it yet).  Cards from a faction other than your enslavement dial, cannot be placed in reserve.  The quoted text says that cards in reserve have no faction, however the card in not in reserve when you are attempting to deploy it, it is in your hand.  Therefore the enslavement rules would forbid you from deploying it as it still has a faction at that point. 

 

This seems like a really convoluted piece of reasoning and I have a hard time believing it to be true. You are effectively saying that when you check play restrictions, your opponent has to rely on hidden information. There is pretty much no other situation in which this is true. In fact, take Shadowsun's Stealth Cadre ("This card may enter play as an attachment with the text, “Attach to a non-Vehicle army unit. Attached unit gets +2 ATK and +2 HP.”) This interpretation would say that the Cadre is a unit in your hand and only enters play as an attachment - meaning that any effect that stopped you from deploying units would stop you from deploying the card. But since you are considered to have deployed an attachment when the Cadre enters play as an attachment, this seems to contradict the idea that its "army unit" characterization in your hand affects how it is deployed as an attachment.

 

So, since when the Cadre enters play as an attachment, you are considered to have deployed an attachment, it seems to me that when a card enters play as a characterless card in reserve, you are considered to have deployed a characterless card in reserve. To me, this means that deploying cards into reserve would no more conflict with the enslavement dial than deploying neutral cards does.

 

The idea of somehow having to keep track of what the enslavement dial was when the unit was deployed into reserve is not one that I can picture anyone favoring. The more consistent way of dealing with play restrictions that depend on hidden information (when the action does not involve revealing that hidden information as part of its resolution) is to reveal the hidden information as part of announcing your intent to take the action. So, if a Necron player cannot put a unit into reserve that doesn't match the enslavement dial, the more consistent way of dealing with the issue would be to require them to reveal the hidden information (i.e., the faction of the card that will be put into play face down) as part of deploying the card into reserve - which kind of defeats the whole purpose.

 

So, I would expect that deploying a card into reserve will count as deploying a factionless card, and therefore not interact with the enslavement dial. I would also expect an errata or clarification on the Deep Strike rules to show up very soon, saying that Necrons cannot Deep Strike units that do not match their enslavement dial.

[Veetek]

Someone uploaded photos of the insert on Facebook, I believe:

 

 

 

My thought process concerning the interpretation of this issue was similar to ktom's, I just refused to acknowledge that the design team intended for the entire reserve -> deep strike process to ignore the enslavement dial completely. I'll make sure to send this to FFG and see what Brad says.

[Khudzlin]

The images indeed show the whole rules for Deep Strike (and nearly the entire rules insert, I think), and we can even see Ktom's name at the bottom.

[ktom]

Thanks for the images.

 

Hmm. Looking more closely at the exact wording, I think the "...instead of deploying that card normally for its regular cost" effectively sets to rest the question of whether the card's normal characteristics are considered when deploying a card into reserve. They are not (i.e., "instead of deploying that card normally"). For example, an effect that said, "Opponents cannot deploy units with cost 2 or lower" would not stop you from putting a 2-cost unit into reserve. It follows that a Necron player could put any card into reserve, no matter what the enslavement dial is set to.

 

And I would agree that at this point, it does look like Deep Striking a unit allows you to bypass the enslavement dial's restrictions because the unit is already in play - and the rules for the enslavement dial only prevent you from bringing a unit with a non-matching faction into play.

 

As I said earlier, I would expect FFG to errata the enslavement dial limitations in short order - rather than trying to come up with a complicated and convoluted method for how Necron players can prove they are not breaking enslavement rules when they deploy units into reserve.

[Veetek]

Thanks ktom. I've sent this question (and a link to this thread) to FFG and will post their answer when I hear back from them.

[steinerp]

 

This seems like a really convoluted piece of reasoning and I have a hard time believing it to be true. You are effectively saying that when you check play restrictions, your opponent has to rely on hidden information. There is pretty much no other situation in which this is true. 

 

ktom- I'm not really sure how deep strike cards enter play and check restrictions. The biggest restriction being that only deep strike cards can be placed in reserve without having your opponent rely on hidden information (since deepstriking is clearly not intended to have to show your opponent that the card meets the requirement of being able to be put into reserve).  As stated, I was just going off the quotes with ellipses (Veetek- thanks for sharing full rules FYI) but I don't much in the full version to make me think otherwise.

[Khudzlin]

The checks on cards put into reserve are all done after the fact: they are revealed by using Deep Strike, when they are discarded after a battle at the first planet (or by a card effect, such as No Surprises) or at the end of the game. But the only promise you make when deploying a card into reserve is that it has Deep Strike. The precedent for this is the Shadows mechanic in AGoT 1st edition: the main difference is that there was no game mechanic to discard those cards. So I think Ktom is right about what FFG is likely to do: making Necrons have to abide by the dial when using Deep Strike is much better than imposing checks that would require remembering when each card was put into reserve; the only alternative I see is deciding that using Deep Strike brings cards into play after all (but I guess they didn't want Deep Strike to trigger entering play conditions).

[ktom]

To build on what Khudzlin said, when you deploy a card into reserve, you basically are revealing one piece of information about it -- that it has the Deep Strike keyword. This is the basic threshold for using the card in that fashion and, because the rules say that all cards left in reserve are to be revealed at the end of the game, there is a check in place to ensure that players do not abuse this basic assumption for use of the mechanic.

 

Effectively, flipping the cards in reserve at the end of the game is a check that players have followed a basic assumption common to all reserve cards and all players. Does it really seem likely that the mechanic would be designed in such a way as to place a much heavier burden specifically on the opponent of a Necron player to keep track of and record the position of the enslavement dial at all times in the game so that they can confirm not only the single, basic assumption common to all reserve cards and all players, but whether or not they cheated at any given moment over the entire game?

 

Let me ask this question; Why can't Anrakyr use his ability ("Deploy Action: Deploy the topmost unit card in a target discard pile. (Limit once per phase.)") to put a Deep Strike card into reserve? (Trust me, he can't.) I think that answer could help put a lot of this into perspective. 

[Khudzlin]

Actually, given the wording of the rule is "deploy a card with the Deep Strike keyword facedown at a planet", I wouldn't have guessed that Anrakyr couldn't use his action to do that, if the topmost unit card in the targeted discard pile had Deep Strike. So while I trust you (you're credited as the editor for that leaflet, after all), I'd like you to explain the reasoning.

[ktom]

The rules say that you have the option of using a deployment turn to deploy a card with the Keyword into reserve. That is, your original options for a deployment turn were:

1. Deploy a card
2. Trigger an Action
3. Pass

But now, they are:

1. Deploy a card
2. Trigger an Action
3. Deploy a Deep Strike card into reserve
4. Pass

When you trigger Anrakyr's Deployment Action, you are choosing to do #2 with your deployment turn (not #3). Since the rules for the Deep Strike mechanic only speak to using a deployment turn to put a Deep Strike card into reserve, there is no rule that says you can use a deploy ability to access the game mechanic for deploying a card into reserve. Said another way, deploying the card normally and deploying the card into reserve are two separate mechanics, and there is no rules text equating the two when a triggered effect says "deploy a card."

 

The better example might have been Staging Ground. Is it clearer that Staging Ground doesn't let you deploy a unit into reserve? For the same reasons? (And side-stepping a LOT of questions about what the "printed cost" of a unit that enters play in reserve would be?)

[BaraBob]

The checks on cards put into reserve are all done after the fact: they are revealed by using Deep Strike, when they are discarded after a battle at the first planet (or by a card effect, such as No Surprises) or at the end of the game. But the only promise you make when deploying a card into reserve is that it has Deep Strike. 

 

I don't understand why this should be the case. If Deep Strike cards are deployed to be put into reserve ("a player has the option of using a deployment turn to deploy a card with the Deep Strike keyword to a planet facedown for 1R instead of deploying that card normally for its regular cost.") why would it not follow the 6 steps of deployment and check for play restrictions as the very first step? This is done with the card still not in play yet, and it would be clear to the player if it matched the enslavement dial or not.

Personally I don't think the fact that the second player may not be able to verify this is really a relevant factor.

 

To take a different comparison from AGoT (this time 2ed), if the Arbor is marshalled the player cannot put a dupe of that card into play on the same turn. The check for play restrictions happens with the card still in hand, and is irrespective of the card being 'blank' once it has entered play.

 

While I think most players agree that it would be preferable if the rules and cards of the game ensured that all restrictions and plays could be verified by both players, there is precedent from Y'Varn where one player has to take the word from the other that he does not have a unit to put into play.

[Khudzlin]

The better example might have been Staging Ground. Is it clearer that Staging Ground doesn't let you deploy a unit into reserve? For the same reasons? (And side-stepping a LOT of questions about what the "printed cost" of a unit that enters play in reserve would be?)

 

It might have given me more pause. But the printed cost of a card is always the number in its upper-left corner (though it would be hard for the other player to check it).

[honorsadam]

Thankfully the definition of "Game round" has bearing here. In contrast to "combat round" which is a small segment of time before all units at a planet are exhausted or dead, a "game round" includes ALL PHASES OF THE GAME. So when the Necrons change their enslavement dial, they change it not only for the deployment phase, but that choice carries on into the combat phase when deep striking becomes relevant.  

 

Ultimately we need a FAQ to cover this topic from Fantasy Flight, but it makes sense to me that you can only turn deep strike units face up if your enslavement dial matches the unit you are trying to deep strike. 

 

I don't know why they didn't want deep striking to trigger "enters play" but that is the cleanest way in my mind to reconcile the rules. 

 

As a side note, my interpretation of the rules insert above does not create a 4th option like Ktom suggests. Deep strike modifies the deployment action.  it does not create a new type of action, it just modifies deploy. Any other time in the rules book or on cards they have been careful to use two different phrases. Either we "deploy" (which includes costs and restrictions and reductions) or we "put in play" (which does not include costs, or restrictions or reductions) Since the Deep striking insert says we "Deploy a card with the Deep Strike keyword to a planet facedown for 1R instead of Deploying that card normally for its regular cost." It is not a huge step to consider that the phrase"instead of deploying that card normally for its regular cost" could also mean its regular restrictions. Deep strike effectively changes every rule in Initating Abilities/Deploying Cards section of the rule book.  Anrankyr's ability certainly CAN deploy a units with the deep Strike and when he does, he can then use the Deep strike ability of the card to place it face down and only pay 1R. 

 

And since he does not need to have the previously dead unit enslaved at the time of deep strike, he only needs it to turn face up.

 

EDIT: I am sorry Ktom, I didn't mean to kill this thread, but I also don't like the "trust me" defense of why ana can't deep strike from the discard. 

[exveer]

So when the Necrons change their enslavement dial, they change it not only for the deployment phase, but that choice carries on into the combat phase when deep striking becomes relevant.  

 

Ultimately we need a FAQ to cover this topic from Fantasy Flight, but it makes sense to me that you can only turn deep strike units face up if your enslavement dial matches the unit you are trying to deep strike. 

 

In the first post it was established, I believe, that you can deploy enter reserve and deep strike a card from any faction, regardless of your Dial. This is because when it enters reserve, it has no characteristics, an when you flip it face-up, it's already in play.

 

This seems like a logical interpretation to me, based on the wording of the various booklets.

[honorsadam]

This seems like a logical interpretation to me, based on the wording of the various booklets.

 

While it is logical, it a) seems to fail the flavor. and b ) will drastically, and un-intuitively increase the occurance and value of deep strike units that they print. 

 

I am still hoping for FAQ from Fantasy flight to resolve this, but as the first pack is out with deep strike in it, That may be just wishful thinking. 

 

In absence of the FAQ you are right, deep strike ignores enslavement. 

[exveer]

While it is logical, it a) seems to fail the flavor. and b ) will drastically, and un-intuitively increase the occurance and value of deep strike units that they print. 

 

I am still hoping for FAQ from Fantasy flight to resolve this, but as the first pack is out with deep strike in it, That may be just wishful thinking. 

 

In absence of the FAQ you are right, deep strike ignores enslavement. 

 

I agree with all of your points, for what it's worth.