44 replies to this topic

[sparrowhawk]

Forums generally focus on Deckbuilding = Strategy because it is easier to discuss deck builds in this medium. It's much harder to learn about how to improve your In-Game Play = Tactics.

 

Unlike the Fun Challenges thread, this is going to be educational (for me definitely and maybe others). There are no right or wrong answers (well, maybe there are a few). There is certainly no single definitive answer. Rather, each scenario depicted in this thread is designed to provoke a debate and hopefully share in-game insights.

 

Magic has a mini-article format known as "What's Your First pick?" relating to drafts. Now the equivalent format for Thrones is...

 

 

WHAT WOULD YOU SET UP? (OR DO YOU MULLIGAN?)

 

 

Let us say you are playing Martell Lion and you start with these 7 cards...

 

Tyrion Lannister

Nymeria Sand x2

Arianne Martell

Areo Hotah

Burned Men

Ghaston Grey

 

In this exercise, you can chose what your plots and other cards played are for each hand as well as your opponent's Faction + Agenda. So under what circumstances (ie. your plots, other cards in your deck, your match-up) would you set-up the following?

 

TA) Tyrion + Areo

TB) Tyrion + Burned

TG) Tyrion + Ghaston

 

NA) Nymeria x2 + Areo

NB) Nymeria x2 + Burned

NG) Nymeria x2 + Ghaston

 

AA) Arianne + Areo

AB) Arianne + Burned

AG) Arianne + Ghaston

 

XX) Mulligan

 

This will hopefully provoke a productive discussion on the reasons why you would ever choose some of the odder options and thereby improve all our play. Just like Magic's "What's Your First Pick?" articles.

 

 

Here's an example to get this discussion started...

 

I would chose Arianne + Ghaston against Bara Fealty when I have Varys' Riddle, Wildfire, First Snow, Marched and Confiscation because

(1) I know Bara Fealty does not play Marched so Ghaston deters him duping his big characters to leave them vulnerable to Tears/Tyene (which I play x3 for both)

(2) I plan to open Riddle (also protects vs. Marched if he has 2 characters and if I fall into Trading, I have Wildfire vs wide and Ghaston vs tall) to win initiative and go second to minimise targets for kneel and Milk

(3) I know Bara Fealty plays Milk x3 and Arianne is the least hurt by a temporary Milk out of those 3 (luring the Milk from Nym)

(4) I tentatively plan to play Nymeria x2 in 2nd player marshall (lose dupe to military if I can't steal their military to stabilise board) with Arianne recalled for Tyrion who then funds my Burned Men who I may be able to use for Marched

(5) I always have Arianne recalled for Areo if I am in trouble (assuming no Milk)

 

In short, because Bara Fealty is the least aggressive archetype outside of Night's Watch defence, I'd adopt this set up, foregoing the extra card of deploying Nymeria x2 and only spending 7, then weather the lack of economy.

 

I don't know if this is the right decision (never played Martell Lion, so many archetypes as yet untried) but the above is my reasoning.

 

 

Please feel free to critique the above decision-making process. But more importantly, why don't you share some of your tactical insights about set-ups on this forum? Start a discussion. You never know, it may improve you and will no doubt help others ease into the game.

 

 

So under what circumstances would YOU set up the 10 options detailed above?

 

(Also feel free to add your own Set-Up Decision scenarios to this thread once we have fully explored this one.)

[Brennansid]

I would always mulligan in this situation. You have no economy and at best you could have a three card setup. With Martell main house you could and should have a better setup than that.

[JCWamma]

Mulligan seems like the way to go. Even with the four fantastic 5-cost characters and three great support cards, the lack of economy/chuds is killer against most decks. If there was a Vengeance you could -maybe- advocate keeping, but against any pressure deck you'll get overrun and against a slower more defensive deck you can't put enough pressure on them, which a Martell Lion needs to be able to do.

[LorasTyrell]

I would definitely mulligan due to the lack of any economy (besides Tyrion). Let me also add that I would probebly only keep a hand with no economy if it gives me a 5 card drop (or more), but that of course depend on the card mix I have.

 

If I had already mulliganed, I would setup either Arianne and Burned Man, or 2x Nymeria and Burned Man. I would rather play Arianne than Nym in any case since I believe Arianne getting milked would hurt less, but I would also be tempted to go for the 3 card setup rather than a 2 card one.

 

Furthermore:

• I would never setup Aero with Arianne in my hand, he is just too good
• I would never setup ony 1 character, unless I am running Varys Riddle to counter Marched to the wall

Great post anyway!

[actionjohnny]

That hand is 100% a mulligan. Your only low cost chuds are the Burned Men, which you definitely want to avoid setting up with if possible as I'd want to use them to ambush later. On top of that, you'd only be able to (at best) set up duped Nymeria and a Burned Men and that's just inviting your opponent to play Milk. Plus, by setting up Nym, you lose the ability to swap her in for Arianne for a nasty surprise. Nymeria is SO much better when you're able to use her without the opponent having knowledge of her. As well asall that, you've got 0 economy in hand.

 

Mulligan, look for a better setup and a better cost curve in your opening hand, and hopefully some economy.

[sparrowhawk]

Wow. That was a bit unanimous. I deliberately made mulligan a strong option but I didn't expect it to be so unanimous. You guys are greedy for better hands. I guess playing Lanni Big Guys has made me less picky with combos like Arianne + Areo and Tyrion + Burned in my opening draw.

I think I would keep it against a deck that doesn't run Milk like GJ go first unopposed rush (not murder variant) when I would play Nym x2 and Burned Men with Arianne into Areo in turn 1, any deck that is not military aggressive. So I wouldn't keep against Stark (unless I was sure he was Fat Cat Tully Rush) or Targ or Lannister or another Martell even. But is it so bad against the other builds? Tyrion is golden against NW defence. You have got 2 partial resets in your plots that let your quality survive...

My worry is that I will draw no quality characters after handing it in. Maybe I'm just a big risk-taker, I used to gamble with 1 land hands going first in Magic.

So that didn't work out as planned! Let's try another.


Targ Crossing

Jorah Mormont
Viserion
Rhaeghal
Dracarys!
Mirri Maz Duur
Roseroad
Viserys Targaryen (Core)


Remember it's up to you to justify your set-up/mulligan decisions in any way you like. You can cite Plots that you have in your deck, the opposing decks you are facing to warrant such a set up etc.

I think this is a deceptively tricky decision and what you set-up (and when you mulligan, remember the Jakob vs LaPlante Final I think in Tournoi?) is highly dependent on your match-up.

Am I wrong again? I await the Judgement of the Forum.

[JCWamma]

Definitely not mulligan this time! In Targaryen I run Forgotten Plans as a general rule, so opening with a 5-card setup with economy is pretty nice. Additionally there's a strong icon spread, plus Mirri who's great for the third challenge. Depending on what you drawback into, what you play against, etc., you can either open Forgotten Plans to shield First Snow or go heavy econ plot to put Mirri out for the ol' 7 STR third challenge backed by Dracarys!. Potentially you win the game round one there!

[LorasTyrell]

Wow. That was a bit unanimous. I deliberately made mulligan a strong option but I didn't expect it to be so unanimous. You guys are greedy for better hands. I guess playing Lanni Big Guys has made me less picky with combos like Arianne + Areo and Tyrion + Burned in my opening draw.

I think I would keep it against a deck that doesn't run Milk like GJ go first unopposed rush (not murder variant) when I would play Nym x2 and Burned Men with Arianne into Areo in turn 1, any deck that is not military aggressive. So I wouldn't keep against Stark (unless I was sure he was Fat Cat Tully Rush) or Targ or Lannister or another Martell even. But is it so bad against the other builds? Tyrion is golden against NW defence. You have got 2 partial resets in your plots that let your quality survive...

My worry is that I will draw no quality characters after handing it in. Maybe I'm just a big risk-taker, I used to gamble with 1 land hands going first in Magic.

So that didn't work out as planned! Let's try another.


Targ Crossing

Jorah Mormont
Viserion
Rhaeghal
Dracarys!
Mirri Maz Duur
Roseroad
Viserys Targaryen (Core)


Remember it's up to you to justify your set-up/mulligan decisions in any way you like. You can cite Plots that you have in your deck, the opposing decks you are facing to warrant such a set up etc.

I think this is a deceptively tricky decision and what you set-up (and when you mulligan, remember the Jakob vs LaPlante Final I think in Tournoi?) is highly dependent on your match-up.

Am I wrong again? I await the Judgement of the Forum.

5 card setup with a gold providing location, plus you have Dracarys in your hand... And Mirri! could you ask for more? I cannot think on any situation where I would mulligan such hand

The only drawback would be getting hit by First Snow, but in my experience one almost never opens with FSoW and hopefully you would be able to draw some 4 drops in your first 5+2 cards

[sparrowhawk]

Ok Forgotten Plans fully justifies keeping the hand without hesitation. I never thought about that. Dammit.

I was hoping for people to chime in about when they go 3 card set up and when they go 5 card set up. But you have found a solution that makes keeping the hand with max. card advantage a no-brainer.

Of course when the opponent opens Heads on Spikes and hits Mirri left in your hand, maybe that turn 1 win is a bit premature. Plus isn't a game that can be decided so early on random card draw (and good strategising with Forgotten Plans) slightly flawed? Too much momentum snowball based on random set-up?

But that's a topic for another (more serious) thread.

Learning for me is to play Forgotten Plans in Targ (and to not pounce on the first obvious opportunity to play First Snow when playing against Wamma's Targ).

So the last one before I exhort someone else to take over the helm. This ones for you, Wamma. A dream hand.


Tyrell Fealty

The Queen of Thorns
Garden Caretaker
Roseroad
Randyll Tarly
Heartsbane
Paxter Redwyne
The Arbor


So when would you play...
Olenna + Reducer + Roseroad
Randyll + Heartsbane + Reducer + Roseroad
Arbor + Paxter

Surely this is less clear cut? A control build opts for the economy except against GJ. A rush build would opt for Olenna (or Randyll if facing Lanni, Martell or Bara who can deny intrigue or kneel her).

I've seen Winterfell + Catelyn set ups go well. Is this a case of you must set up The Arbor if you see it?


Does anyone know how to play Tyrell on this forum...?

[JCWamma]

Perhaps I should leave that one for others to have a go at first .

[uBaHoB]

I'll give it a bash than.

 

I'll go full greedy here Arbor + Paxter. I usually run Varys's Riddle and I'll probably open with it. Fealty + Arbor and gold is enough for her Majesty Randyll dropper and the reducers and sword. The thing that may put a stop to the plan is what is my opponent and if I'm first or second . In a long term the tempo that Arbor provides is enough to justify the Risk.

[cml]

I would also go Arbor / Paxter here.  It's just such a strong econ boost to start the game with.

[Itachi]

I opt for the Arbor + Paxter.

 

Paxter is not likely to be Marched (I probably would be glad if opp would do that); and gaining +4 gold for your first turn is huge. Should go really smooth from there.

[ojimijam]

Yeah this one isnt a mulligan by any stretch.

 

I'm loving targ crossing at the moment, but my list doesnt have forgotten plans in it. With my deck id be setting up mirri/viserys/roseroad and opening calm. It doesnt really bother me if they march, we have at least 6 gold to get down characters (probably jorah/rhaegal wit henough left over for dracarys.) 

 

(edit) who knew this forum moved so fast

[ingsve]

My problem with an Arbor + Paxter setup is that eventhough you have lots of gold so you can afford to play something expensive the first turn like Olenna and use her to get Randyll out, you'll have the drawback of having possibly to few cards in play. If you don't have that many cards it doesn't matter if you have economy if all it does on turn 3 forward is leave you with gold for the taxman. I would much more prefer to get more cards out on setup and then play the Arbor on turn 1. That way you get 1 turn behind on the gold but you have more cards in hand and in play.

[LordVampire]

The problem with a mulligan is always that you really don't know what you're going to get. I played my very first game of Agot this weekend and mulliganed for the exact reasons mentioned above (no economy, but with a couple of cheap cards), only to get an even worse hand, with only 2 characters, that I couldn't play both because of the cost and a hand full of limited cards. Had a really tough time getting out of that one. I used Dutch national winner's deck btw, so it wasn't really that the deck was built wrong.

I think what I've learned playing Conquest and what goes here as well, is that when in doubt, do not mulligan. Sure, you might get a better hand, but it might just as well be even worse, almost losing you the game at first turn. It's also depending on your entire deckbuild of course. If you have a ton of cheap characters in there, but don't draw a single one, your mulligan has a much bigger chance of including at least some of course.

In the end, it's usually the most painstaking decision in the entire game. To mulligan, or not to mulligan, that's the question.

[sparrowhawk]

Good point, LV. Because these LCGs force a binary decision, it is agonising. Now if we had a mulligan like in the FAQ thread OP (put aside X cards, redraw X cards, shuffle cards put aside back into deck) then maybe it would be less of a heart-in-your-mouth crapshoot when you do mulligan.

For closure on the Tyrell Start Hand, my decision would be thus:

Against all decks except Greyjoy, I open Arbor + Paxter. I open Riddle. My Building Orders to find me Arbor normally can find me Pleasure Barge or Mander for draw. Against most Greyjoy who are weak in intrigue with no denial like Stark and who can Sow easiest at game start, I open Olenna + Reducer + Roseroad (you have Paxter to help push the INT win). Against Greyjoy Stag or Sun, because I fear kneel/attainted and it has more intrigue, I open Randyll + Heartsbane + Reducer + Roseroad as the safest opening. It's still a good set up and you are playing safe to avoid an early blow out from the rushiest faction (Rush edges long game Control).

That's my answer. Probably flawed. We do have a Tyrell fanboy on this forum. Would be great to hear what he would do.


Even better is if others post some starting hands. PLEASE POST SCENARIOS. All it needs is Faction + Agenda and then 7 cards. Ideally nothing clear cut.

Here is another example to demonstrate the pros and cons of each set-up option.


Lannister Fealty (people will play this more after the box arrives)

Tywin Lannister
Kingsroad
Tyrion Lannister
Red Cloaks
Burned Men
Casterly Rock
Lannisport

Think about all the reasons why you may opt for a different set-up. Maybe you have Wardens of the West and no Riddle? Maybe the opponent plays Fallen From Favour vs your telegraphed Riddle anti-Marched? Maybe your opponent has already got 5 cards face down (players really need to formalise set-up as too much info is given out) so Riddle is less of a deterrent vs Marched?

Now this is the kicker. Give your answers in 2 parts. Today's meta and the meta of 2 months from now when Valar is out. This exercise is also to help acclimatise players to the Impending Meta of less tempo, more control.

[Odrl]

Lannister Fealty (people will play this more after the box arrives)

Tywin Lannister
Kingsroad
Tyrion Lannister
Red Cloaks
Burned Men
Casterly Rock
Lannisport

 

This looks like a deck I played recently. I think a mulligan has a good chance of giving you a better setup, but let's not be greedy...

 

First of all, I wouldn't touch Tywin. I'm not playing Varys's Riddle, so I am definitely looking for two characters. I think I would go for Tyrion, Red Cloaks and Kingsroad in most situations. My high gold plot would be A Noble Cause (seems a little dated now, so I may have to update this deck), so I would open with it against decks that don't specialize in targeted kill. This would leave me with 4 gold after playing Tywin, so I would have a decent board assuming I drew at least something useful. I would then be looking to play Wardens of the West and get my two locations out.

 

Against more aggressive decks I would be tempted to play A Game of Thrones in round 1, especially if I saw something like The Seastone Chair or Ice on the board. It would still be enough gold to play Tywin, unless I drew something more convenient.

 

I think the biggest problem with this setup is Martell. You can't stall them with Game of Thrones, and with Nymeria, Tyene and Attainted they have a realistic chance of poisoning Tywin and Tyrion early on. I have no dupes, no Nightmares, no Milk and no Treachery in my opening hand, so this would definitely be a mulligan.

 

I'm more of a trial and error player when it comes to deckbuilding, so I don't really have a good idea how this deck would work with Valar. I guess I would be reluctant to play the two big characters without any dupes and bodyguards. I need them anyway for triggering Varys, but the difference here is that I may be hit with my opponent's Valar as well, so I just need some experience in how to deal with this situation before I can comment on it.

[VonWibble]

Without reading Odrl's response

I would keep the hand, as it has economy and a reasonable mix of chuds and big guys.

(I would however question what made me put Casterly Rock in the deck. I assume I must be playing crossing but you stated Fealty.)

With no 1 cost I keep Tywin in hand. Yes, I can Riddle the Marched but what if he sets up 3 characters? Being Fealty maens I'd rather keep something loya in hand at any rate, and chances are I can afford him turn 1 with the Kingsroad (if facing Lanni or Lion banner I may open with a good initiative plot to ensure I go first and don't worry about Treachery, if facing Greyjoy then I go high gold to worry about shipwright less).

Casterly and Lannisport do little for me without board presence already established, and I'd prefer to keep Burned men for ambush.

That leaves Tyrion, Kingsroad, and Red Cloaks.

I'd look turn 1 to get Tywin and Burned men (or a chud if I draw one) out for a strong presense but not so many characters Valar is a factor.

If Valar is in the meta, I'd be strongly tempted to go Summons or Building orders, for a Tywin dupe/Bodyguard (Tyrion dupe would be a perfectly good pull as an alternative). With Fealty, Kingsroad and Tyrion money I have enough gold to achieve my spend objective with a 4 gold plot.

Alternative is to go for Wardens of the West. Enough economy to get Tywin and trigger the plot, and then if they Valar I am probably well up on cards in hand and with similar board position, plus I will have a better plot revealed turn 2 (Riddle is the obvious one if they have dupes and I don't). If I were lucky enough to find a Tyrion dupe and a chud in my 2 draw, I'd play them out with Casterly rock to really put pain on their hand size.

And now I'm reading Odrl's reply. Seems we agree in general.

[sparrowhawk]

Thanks to both of your very reasonable responses. I shall make a counter-argument for purposes of balance.

 

With no 1 cost I keep Tywin in hand. Yes, I can Riddle the Marched but what if he sets up 3 characters?

 

So let's say those 3 face down cards are all character vs your Tywin + Kingsroad set-up.

 

Now it could be 2 reducers and say Jaime (probably the best 6-coster early game as a non-kneeler). That is the worst case scenario and highly unlikely (especially now that banners outside Lanni Dragon don't play their banner reducer). Their biggest guy is probably cost 4 if they played 3 characters and not mulliganed (because any smaller and they will be vulnerable to First Snow - unless it's Wamma playing Targ).

 

When making Plot decisions, you have to apply Game Theory (in the mathematical sense) and see things from the opponent's point of view. He sees Lannister and must fear First Snow. So he will mulligan weenie hands to get a set-up with a 4+ coster.

 

So let's say you set up Tywin + Kingsroad to his 4+3+1 character set up. You play Riddle and he plays Marched.

 

You now have 5 +3 from Kingsroad gold with a reserve of 7.

He has 4 gold + his 4 cost character with a reserve of 5,

 

Sounds like we are even in gold tempo and cards (both had 1 card in play after Plot phase). But he will be discarding to reserve very probably so you are actually up in card advantage.

 

Now that 5 +3 can net you Tyrion (who nets you Burned Men) + Red Cloaks + Casterly Rock (Fealty) at worst if you didn't draw into anything better in the 4 cards you see since set up (and Fealty plays Assassin which can replace Casterly Rock).

 

So here's the thing. With Riddle in my plot deck, I think there are only 3 occasions when I wouldn't open Kingsroad + Tywin.

 

1) He has a 4+ card set-up (although a 4 card set up will probably include a 0 cost location or maybe a positive attachment). Now officially players are supposed to flip to see who makes mulligan decision first then sets up face down first. But this is never adhered to by most players, even though the intelligence gained can be crucial for these crucial turn 1 decisions in a snowball game. It is not your fault if the poker player downstream of you bids out-of-turn before you. People have got to get into the habit of rolling a die at the start of the game, just like in Magic for the Play or Draw decision.

 

2) I am facing an incredibly aggressive build like Direwolves or Dothraki or Greyjoy Fealty (Crossing tends to be Rush). I will only know this if I have been told this or I saw him play it on the table beside me in the previous round.

 

3) I know he opens Trading with the Pentoshi when I want to hold off my Riddle to try to hit his draw plot. This is often a Crossing build that wants to go wide ASAP. Again the proximity of future opponents will forewarn, as will a loud cry of joy from their prior opponent who opened Summer Harvest.

 

In which case I would open Tyrion + Red Cloaks + Kingsroad and play my economy plot to get Tywin out,

 

There is an edge case. So bleeding obvious am I finding Riddle as the ubiquitous opener (logically in theory-craft, players don't always follow logic), hence my suggestion to Restrict it with other popular plots that too strongly shape the meta, that I am seriously considering Fallen With Favour. Most definitely in decks with Ward x3 or Viserys x3 and maybe even high-low 7 + 1 builds that run Bronn x3 (can only think of Lanni Crossing Wildlings currently). That 7 gold with 7 initiative trumps Riddle and you destroy their "I'm immune to Marched" cockiness. But in Game Theory, you must not be too ahead of the curve or you out-think the situation beyond the opponent's thinking. Maybe this will never catch on.

 

And in case this feels like theorycraft, in the last tournament I played, I did set up Twyin + Kingsroad + Riddle (details in the Lanni Deck Thread) and I went on to win that game (he Marched into my Riddle for board clear with my 8 economy beating his 5 economy with Roseroad).

 

 

Now with Valar in the game, it's all change. Firstly, you are playing Lanni Fealty - so of course you are playing Valar.

 

I would open Lannisport + Casterly Rock + Red Cloaks + Kingsroad in many instances. An obvious exception would be Greyjoy for their unopposed tech but it's a bad match-up for Reset Control anyway.

 

That's a 4 card set up, the Kingsroad is there to boost initiative until the turn you Valar. All you need now is stall plots like Calm over Westeros and Game of Thrones to reel them into the Valar. You have your amazing card advantage engine in those 2 cards already. Your deck will run Treachery for Bodyguards. What more can you ask for?

 

 

I would however question what made me put Casterly Rock in the deck.

 

Casterly Rock will be amazing come the Lanni Box (which is before Valar?). It is an enabler for so many cards already

- Tyrion

- Wardens of the West

- Paid Off

- Lannisport

- Small Council Chamber

- Tower of the Hand

 

When you add Lanni Box Cersei, Rains of Castamere. the 0 cards in hand module etc, it will become the "marque" character that Tommy on TWB evaluated it to be.

 

It really isn't shabby in Fealty.

 

 

 

So does anyone else want to post a Start Hand dilemma? Please? Just Faction + Agenda then 7 cards.