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The New FFG Article. One More Print for Awakenings....


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23 replies to this topic

#1
Ironswimsuit

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https://www.fantasyf...an-awakening-1/

 

 

What do you all think?



#2
Tacullu64

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It all depends on if they've figured out what size the print run should be. If they print enough product to meet demand it doesn't matter how many print runs there are.

#3
Ironswimsuit

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This is FFG we're talking about. Demand forecast isn't their thing.



#4
Tacullu64

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Not on the initial sets, but they eventually get a grip on it. Case in point X-wing. The roll out was horrible. However, today I don't even preorder, I walk into my lgs on release day and buy whatever I want. Two weeks later there is still product on the shelf and x-wing is more popular than ever in my area.

I don't see why they can't do the same with Destiny once they figure it out.

#5
Rio

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Lol

#6
Machination

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Yea. I'm going to stay far, far away from this one.

 

It's a shame. I really wanted to get into this but the tone of that article has just put me off of this all together. Going to be very limited and very expensive. Great for retailers, bad for everyone else unless you have deep pockets and/or retail connections.

 

I'm not getting a broker in order to play this game, heh.   :P


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#7
Toqtamish

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Not really any different than any other CCG. But this is also why I don't play CCGs. 


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#8
pantsyg

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I wonder what the "base set" entails. 

 

I actually don't see this as a huge deal, as long as FFG doesn't short demand again. As mentioned, this is fairly standard for CCGs. If product is again hard to come by and I'd be forced to pay above MSRP for packs, I'm out. 

 

As a side note, I can already hear the singles sellers salivating. I do wonder how much of the Awakenings shortage is attributable to retailers/individuals buying a ton of stock to open packs and sell the singles. 


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#9
Buhallin

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Not really any different than any other CCG. But this is also why I don't play CCGs. 

It actually is notably different from most CCGs.  Rarity is always something of an issue, but there was always the potential to play CCGs based primarily off more common cards.  That's not an option in Destiny - somewhere around half your deck MUST be rares, and any given deck requires a specific combination of certain additional rare cards.

 

This makes it much more difficult to assemble even passingly playable decks with limited content.  It also seriously limits the ability to help other players by giving them excess - I can give you a full playset of commons, and it won't do anything for you if you can't get characters.  The dice also make proxying either impossible or way too difficult - I know a lot of people who got through the early years of Magic with a photocopier and a pair of scissors.  That's far less an option here.

 

Destiny's sales model may be like a CCG, right down to the Legendary stupidity, but the game itself is not, and the two interact in some ways that make the shortage far worse than it might be for any other game.


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#10
ColdFusion71

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I have not actually seen a Destiny card in real life. I wanted to play it so bad but man it is impossible to find anywhere near me and online you get gouged hard. 


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#11
Ironswimsuit

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Not really any different than any other CCG. But this is also why I don't play CCGs. 

 

Not really any different from other new CCGs.  I remember when Wizards couldn't communicate with their distributors properly and under-printed sets like The Dark and Legends, only to overshoot demand for Fallen Empires.  But, those are expansions.  Base sets would stay in print as updated rereleases, or white bordered unlimited versions.  CCGs without Star Wars on the packaging immediately have a smaller niche, so when they're popular and sell out, it's different as there's less, if any, market research for them to forecast with. Final Fantasy is a good current example of a new CCG which appears to be under-printed. I've yet to see a physical card for that game.  FFG doesn't really do collectible games, so their fan base isn't used to seeing this from them. They are used to seeing product shortages (though these do get ironed out eventually).  I think this, in addition to the announcement that sets are only good for a year can justify some harsh feelings from the players. That feels like a faster rotation than other CCGs (I know certain sets in Magic blocks have shorter lifespans than others) There's also the dead horse of lackluster OP support.  I don't care much either way, as I have no time to play.  I'm interested to see how this plays out, though.



#12
Rio

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It actually is notably different from most CCGs.  Rarity is always something of an issue, but there was always the potential to play CCGs based primarily off more common cards.  That's not an option in Destiny - somewhere around half your deck MUST be rares, and any given deck requires a specific combination of certain additional rare cards.
 
This makes it much more difficult to assemble even passingly playable decks with limited content.  It also seriously limits the ability to help other players by giving them excess - I can give you a full playset of commons, and it won't do anything for you if you can't get characters.  The dice also make proxying either impossible or way too difficult - I know a lot of people who got through the early years of Magic with a photocopier and a pair of scissors.  That's far less an option here.
 
Destiny's sales model may be like a CCG, right down to the Legendary stupidity, but the game itself is not, and the two interact in some ways that make the shortage far worse than it might be for any other game.


Ive been saying this since its launch and that is the very reason I sold out of the game. It's like if MTG made all basic land and creatures rares and mythic rares. Then you bought a box and got all blue spells but only pulled one Island and 3 mountains and all white creature rares. EF that.
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#13
Asklepios

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Yep, sad to see the money already spent go to waste, and sadder still to have wasted all that energy and time understanding how to deckbuild and play this game competitively... but I'm out too. Maybe I'll reconsider in June, but way I see it, that's AFTER the tourney season has begun, and AFTER the first expansion is out. Buying the cards to get me a competitive core set deck at that stage is basically way too late in the day for me to feel like a competitive player. It's a shame, because it's a good game, but a combination of poor print runs, and a game model where between three players with three booster boxes and six starters we can't build a top tier deck... well, I basically think FFG have totally screwed this one up.

 

Going to write this one off as a bad experience and a reminder why the LCG format is superior, and see you guys at L5R instead,


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#14
Kaloo

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I'm going to hold onto my set until the UK Games Expo and then immediately sell it off afterwards (unless I manage to win it, in which case I'd probably end up going to Worlds 2018 with the same deck out of lack of interest to sink more money in :P ). I just hope that Spirit of Rebellion wont be legal for it (it probably will) since it probably wont have been out for more than a few weeks, meaning that those who could buy 4 boxes will win it  and those whom couldn't will struggle.

 

L5R better be good


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#15
Rio

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Yep, sad to see the money already spent go to waste, and sadder still to have wasted all that energy and time understanding how to deckbuild and play this game competitively... but I'm out too. Maybe I'll reconsider in June, but way I see it, that's AFTER the tourney season has begun, and AFTER the first expansion is out. Buying the cards to get me a competitive core set deck at that stage is basically way too late in the day for me to feel like a competitive player. It's a shame, because it's a good game, but a combination of poor print runs, and a game model where between three players with three booster boxes and six starters we can't build a top tier deck... well, I basically think FFG have totally screwed this one up.
 
Going to write this one off as a bad experience and a reminder why the LCG format is superior, and see you guys at L5R instead,


Honestly, I think they did it on purpose. I think that based on how anti CCG they've been in the past. It's my belief that they were told to make a CCG by either Disney or Asmodee so they did. While purposely sabotaging it's release, to prove to the licensor that CCGs don't work or are harder to maintain than their LCG model. But then again, I'm just making that up.
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#16
Buhallin

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I'm actually sympathetic on the CCG model for Destiny.  FFG loves their shiny components, and the components are indeed super shiny.  Because of that I don't actually think they could have made this game financially as an LCG.  Doesn't necessarily make it any better for the consumer, but it is what it is.

 

I'm not giving up yet - I do still think it's a great game, and I'm in a position that I can afford it well enough.  I will say that I feel more than a little guilty when I try to demo/grow the game though.



#17
ikeebear

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I'm actually sympathetic on the CCG model for Destiny.  FFG loves their shiny components, and the components are indeed super shiny.  Because of that I don't actually think they could have made this game financially as an LCG.  Doesn't necessarily make it any better for the consumer, but it is what it is.

 

I'm not giving up yet - I do still think it's a great game, and I'm in a position that I can afford it well enough.  I will say that I feel more than a little guilty when I try to demo/grow the game though.

 

I agree with this. I can only guess at the cost that those dice add to production compared to just printing cards, but it would be considerable. I just don't see how Destiny as a game could fit into the existing LCG model and be commercially viable. 

 

Let's imagine a core set that is basically just the two starter decks packaged together for double the cost of the starters. Buying two gives you a playset ... which is not uncommon for LCG core sets. Setting aside that I'm sure people would complain because you would be getting much fewer cards than the typical 120+ card core sets, this is feasible. But keep in mind this is only 15 of the 67 die-cards.

 

Then what? Assume a deluxe box and assume the main goal is to try to balance the pool as quickly as possible, so primarily red and yellow dice. Again, maybe you need to buy two to get playsets, but how many dice could you expect for a deluxe box-level price? Fifteen? Twenty?

 

Monthly Destiny Packs could maybe have one die for - optimistically - three different cards. Again, you'd have to buy two for a playset (which doesn't really fit the LCG philosophy).

 

So, after a core set and a whole cycle, you'd have access to 42-53 dice ... fewer than the 67 dice in the Awakening set. After another deluxe and full cycle we'd have 69-80. A full year to get to a cardpool and a meta that could resemble what we already have. 

 

Granted, even at double the cost of a normal LCG (assuming standard LCG pricing, which is probably ridiculously optimistic), this would be a lot cheaper than the minimum $400-ish (US) that a full playset would likely cost. The fact remains that FFG need to make a reasonable return for the cost of producing the game. That's not evil ... it's business.

 

But the big cost for players, IMO, would be a much, much, much slower growing cardpool and all the problems that come with it. Imagine if eight of the 15-20 dice in the deluxe box are characters (one blue hero, one blue villain, two red heroes, one red villain, one yellow hero, two yellow villains) ... we have only half the character pool of Awakenings. Then the monthly packs would have to do something like hero-villain-neutral mini-cycles so that at the end of the cycle, we'd finally have four characters for each 'faction/colour'.

 

I don't particularly enjoy the CCG model as a consumer, but I get why that's the way FFG has gone. I think it had to be this, or something completely new and different. At this stage I'm still in.



#18
SyntaxLost

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Honestly, I think they did it on purpose. I think that based on how anti CCG they've been in the past. It's my belief that they were told to make a CCG by either Disney or Asmodee so they did. While purposely sabotaging it's release, to prove to the licensor that CCGs don't work or are harder to maintain than their LCG model. But then again, I'm just making that up.

 

I know I don't normally frequent these forums any longer and this would be my first post in Destiny though I have commented on it in the past on a different subforum. I can say that deliberately sabotaging your own game would be a monumentally boneheaded move in business terms. Your retailers--and consequently your distributors--are not going to be happy about getting burned from your deliberately bad product and that's going to impact their faith in you as a supplier overall.

 

The simpler answer is that CCGs are hard (there's only one major one that has endured and it's now seriously squeezing retailers). It's far more likely that they incorrectly modeled how the random product is going to be absorbed by consumers because they simply don't have the experience working with CCGs.


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#19
Asklepios

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I'm actually sympathetic on the CCG model for Destiny.  FFG loves their shiny components, and the components are indeed super shiny.  Because of that I don't actually think they could have made this game financially as an LCG.  Doesn't necessarily make it any better for the consumer, but it is what it is.

 

I'm not giving up yet - I do still think it's a great game, and I'm in a position that I can afford it well enough.  I will say that I feel more than a little guilty when I try to demo/grow the game though.

 

I can afford it, I just can't buy it. Therein lies the rub.



#20
Ignithas

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@ikeebear: After 2 minutes of thinking this is what I came up (without changing the prices of the components, which I think are slightly overpriced):

 

Change the rule, so that you can only have each card with a dice only onte time in your deck (including no elite characters) and then sell a box of 10 dice and  50 cards for 30 $ every quarter of the year.

 

The current CCG model isn't sustainable in the Long run and a strict distribution cycle is mandatory (which FFG isn't known for).