15 replies to this topic

[tierdal]

This is not meant as troll post or even off topic. This is the Internet.. I'm sure people will troll... but hopefully we can have a real discussion around them.

We are in a gaming and Star Wars renesaince right now. It has never been a better time for Star Wars or gaming. And with card games specifically right now we have two amazing games. SW LCG and Destiny. Both from FFG.

At first glance they may seem like polar opposites... Ones a "pay to win ccg cash grab without product and random dice with no skill... And don't forget dead as well"... And the other is a "dying game without theme". But the truth is those sentiments couldn't be further from the truth. The people who love Destiny don't need me to rehash why Destiny isn't what some people say it is... But as the newer game with an influx of new blood it really doesn't need help. What does need help is the SWLCG.

TL:DR, If you love competitive card games, and you love Star Wars, and you love Destiny... You owe it to yourself to check out Star Wars The Card Game. Many of the game design elements you love about Destiny are pulled straight from the LCG.

If you are interested in learning more... Read below about why people love the game. We could use you. For this game to be lost to the annuls of history would be a dark mark on all of gaming :

I played magic a bit as a kid along with the Star Wars CCG (such a good game) it wasn't until the Star Wars LCG that I truly got into the competitive scene. But why?

Well.. below you can see 5 distinct reasons why the SWLCG may be the best designed competitive card game ever made and why it's player community, while small, is fervently in love with it.


1) Draw - amazing hand control. Manipulating how fast you draw is built right into the game (dumping hand in edge battles, maximizing cycling with cards like Fall of the Jedi, ect..) are all things that separate good players great ones. But its the system itself - that you refill to reserve (full hand), that really gives this strategic and tactical depth. From what I know about most card games this simply doesn't exist. Draw is almost always punished in some way. In Netrunner it takes your actions - in magic it takes space in your deck as cards (or you devolve into top decking...in thrones you do get 2 but if you can't stop intrigue challgnes you are effectively losing one of those cards every turn (although in thrones defense hand protection is part of the game and cards in hand are a resource to manage which I like)

2) Multiple Card Uses - No dead cards EVER. Even a 0 pip card in your hand is a bluff to your opponent. They just don't know what it could be - and how much they have to go in to win edge in a battle. Every card has value at every single point in the game. You are always making tough opportunity cost decisions. In thrones if a character dies their dupes become glorified hand protectors, in netrunner they work as life/agenda protectors, in magic too much mana or not enough mana puts you at a severe disadvantage

3) Force struggle - basically a reward for managing your board state well... very similar to dominance in thrones. It's not enough to just have board superiority with alot of units/enhancement and a hand full of tricks. You need to think what happens if you let that death star dial go up 1 more or allow 1 lightside damage through. Its a very subtle but highly impactful way of giving you a reason to not push all in on attack every turn (similar to edge battles)

4) Edge battles - beyond providing a use for every card - this system creates a very tactical battle experience. Winning edge doesn't mean you win the battle - and the shifting priority of striking is really just fantastic and really makes you think before attacking in a way I've not experienced in many games... Think about activating and resolving dice in Destiny. It's a very similar back and forth tactical struggle

5) The pod system - every deck change ultimately is 6 cards - and that is something pretty amazing - and will continue to be more amazing as our card pool grows. Its not that hard to throw together 30 to 40 of the best cards in a 50-60 card deck. But throwing together 5-10 pods that all layer up to a strategy, being forced to use items that might see less play (like a 1 blast chud or even vaders lightsaber) - forces you to make the most out of what you have vs min/maxing all the time to suceed within the amazingly complex and interesting game system the SW LCG provides. And this also allows you to use cards that in magic or even destiny to a smaller degree... You'd never use (looking at you Lukes Lightsaber)

This is just a small overview and barely touches the depth of the LCG. There may be terms you don't recognize but at the end of the day it is pretty clear to me and probably anyone who has put alot of time into each of these games that if you like one chances are you will like the other.

This is not a zero sum game. Both games are fantastic. Both games can thrive. If you have the time... You could do alot worse than playing both.

If you are interested in learning I'll be at worlds and very willing to demo!

May the force be with us

[Queklaine]

I have to agree with pretty much everything that was said above.  I also played magic as a teenager.  I never played the star wars game that was made by decipher, but I did do that one the wizards put out approximately in between the time that episodes 2 and 3 were in theaters.  This game also used a lot of rolling of dice even though they weren't custom like the ones in destiny.  You still had the luck aspect that comes with rolling just like in destiny.  I started playing the LCG straight from launch and still continue to play it weekly at my local store.  I was skeptical about destiny when it first came out after watching videos and reading the rules.  I didnt think it would be a very deep strategic game but it turned out to be exactly that.  

 

The worry I've heard about getting into the LCG is the cost now that there are so many cards.  The reality is that I've already spent more money on destiny than I have to buy the entire LCG card pool.  The fact is that you get a new expansion about every 6 weeks and everyone gets the exact same cards so theres no collectability to force you to spend you entire paycheck to get everything you need.  Instead, its 15 bucks and your set.  Those looking to start now don't even need to go back and buy everything.  All you really need is the core starters because of the tokens and rules and then you can pick and choose what you want after that.  There are big box expansions out there that have come out that I think were 30 but they had more cards than 2 normal boosters so they are an even better deal.  Many of the sets from the starter are still used in tournament play because they are so good.  

 

It really is a good game, top to bottom.  There are many videos to watch of games showing strategy and deck ideas out there.  I do commentary for yodas hut where we watch and critique games.  We have been doing mostly the LCG but we have started doing destiny as well.  There are links for these on youtube and on both forums for star wars here on cardgamedb.  There are so many various pod casts and tutorials out there, anyone can learn about the game.  It is definitely worth a look.

[vilainn6]

This is not meant as troll post or even off topic. This is the Internet.. I'm sure people will troll... but hopefully we can have a real discussion around them.

We are in a gaming and Star Wars renesaince right now. It has never been a better time for Star Wars or gaming. And with card games specifically right now we have two amazing games. SW LCG and Destiny. Both from FFG.

At first glance they may seem like polar opposites... Ones a "pay to win ccg cash grab without product and random dice with no skill... And don't forget dead as well"... And the other is a "dying game without theme". But the truth is those sentiments couldn't be further from the truth. The people who love Destiny don't need me to rehash why Destiny isn't what some people say it is... But as the newer game with an influx of new blood it really doesn't need help. What does need help is the SWLCG.

TL:DR, If you love competitive card games, and you love Star Wars, and you love Destiny... You owe it to yourself to check out Star Wars The Card Game. Many of the game design elements you love about Destiny are pulled straight from the LCG.

If you are interested in learning more... Read below about why people love the game. We could use you. For this game to be lost to the annuls of history would be a dark mark on all of gaming :

I played magic a bit as a kid along with the Star Wars CCG (such a good game) it wasn't until the Star Wars LCG that I truly got into the competitive scene. But why?

Well.. below you can see 5 distinct reasons why the SWLCG may be the best designed competitive card game ever made and why it's player community, while small, is fervently in love with it.


1) Draw - amazing hand control. Manipulating how fast you draw is built right into the game (dumping hand in edge battles, maximizing cycling with cards like Fall of the Jedi, ect..) are all things that separate good players great ones. But its the system itself - that you refill to reserve (full hand), that really gives this strategic and tactical depth. From what I know about most card games this simply doesn't exist. Draw is almost always punished in some way. In Netrunner it takes your actions - in magic it takes space in your deck as cards (or you devolve into top decking...in thrones you do get 2 but if you can't stop intrigue challgnes you are effectively losing one of those cards every turn (although in thrones defense hand protection is part of the game and cards in hand are a resource to manage which I like)

2) Multiple Card Uses - No dead cards EVER. Even a 0 pip card in your hand is a bluff to your opponent. They just don't know what it could be - and how much they have to go in to win edge in a battle. Every card has value at every single point in the game. You are always making tough opportunity cost decisions. In thrones if a character dies their dupes become glorified hand protectors, in netrunner they work as life/agenda protectors, in magic too much mana or not enough mana puts you at a severe disadvantage

3) Force struggle - basically a reward for managing your board state well... very similar to dominance in thrones. It's not enough to just have board superiority with alot of units/enhancement and a hand full of tricks. You need to think what happens if you let that death star dial go up 1 more or allow 1 lightside damage through. Its a very subtle but highly impactful way of giving you a reason to not push all in on attack every turn (similar to edge battles)

4) Edge battles - beyond providing a use for every card - this system creates a very tactical battle experience. Winning edge doesn't mean you win the battle - and the shifting priority of striking is really just fantastic and really makes you think before attacking in a way I've not experienced in many games... Think about activating and resolving dice in Destiny. It's a very similar back and forth tactical struggle

5) The pod system - every deck change ultimately is 6 cards - and that is something pretty amazing - and will continue to be more amazing as our card pool grows. Its not that hard to throw together 30 to 40 of the best cards in a 50-60 card deck. But throwing together 5-10 pods that all layer up to a strategy, being forced to use items that might see less play (like a 1 blast chud or even vaders lightsaber) - forces you to make the most out of what you have vs min/maxing all the time to suceed within the amazingly complex and interesting game system the SW LCG provides. And this also allows you to use cards that in magic or even destiny to a smaller degree... You'd never use (looking at you Lukes Lightsaber)

This is just a small overview and barely touches the depth of the LCG. There may be terms you don't recognize but at the end of the day it is pretty clear to me and probably anyone who has put alot of time into each of these games that if you like one chances are you will like the other.

This is not a zero sum game. Both games are fantastic. Both games can thrive. If you have the time... You could do alot worse than playing both.

If you are interested in learning I'll be at worlds and very willing to demo!

May the force be with us

 

The SW LCG is not the best competive card game. It is a dying game full of problems and the fact that this user is pratically begging people on another game forum to look at it is a good exemple. It's dying since many years because of many factors and I will not talk about the long delay at the start or the weak first cycle and Deluxe box Edge of Darkness. Let's talk about the OP's points:

 

The Pod system: What Tierdal praise as a strenght is in my opinion a weakness. Card games are particular game that attract particular gamers, people who know magic the gathering or japanese TCG like Pokemon or yu-gi-oh, people who want to build decks picking the cards they want, all the cards they want. It's what make Magic the popular game it is today. That lcg doesn't offer you that freedom. It force you to play bad cards just to include good ones and makes the few pods who synergize well together nearly broken.

 

Edge battles/Multiple card uses: I wont praise this as awesome mechanic but rather a solution to a problem. When you force people to play cards that won't work with other cards in their deck because they wouldn't have included them at the first place given the choice, you need to give these cards a second use and that why edge battles exist. 

 

Force struggle: Thematic mechanic I will admit but at the end it make the game more difficult to learn for new players for little impact.

 

Destiny is ahead of SW lcg in term of popularity and probably in sell numbers .It has normal deckbuilding rules, it takes into account all star wars univers, not just the OT and obscur Legends young people never heard about, and it is more easy to find a community to play with. FFG wanted to try new things and innovate and I will raise them my hat for that but it is clear now that the market wasn't ready for these innovations. I suspect the Star wars name on the box helps the lcg survive that long but now there is a new star wars kid in town and the town is too small for both.

[DJstormtrooper]

Yeah, design decisions really killed that game. First, they made a Hoth cycle that failed to produce a single viable Hoth deck. Then, they put out a cycle of pilot-centric cards only to have them all invalidated by a strangely interpreted version of Tarkin. There were so many decks in that game that just never became competitive like Ewoks or Rebel (anything), yet they kept getting pack after pack. Jedi and Sith were the best factions for basically...the entire game?

 

So take a poor meta and combine that with bizarre tournament rules that let players basically collude with each other and you have a game that was ready to die.

[tierdal]

It's not over yet... Not if anything to say about it.... I have.

[Rio]

The SW LCG is not the best competive card game. It is a dying game full of problems and the fact that this user is pratically begging people on another game forum to look at it is a good exemple. It's dying since many years because of many factors and I will not talk about the long delay at the start or the weak first cycle and Deluxe box Edge of Darkness. Let's talk about the OP's points:
 
The Pod system: What Tierdal praise as a strenght is in my opinion a weakness. Card games are particular game that attract particular gamers, people who know magic the gathering or japanese TCG like Pokemon or yu-gi-oh, people who want to build decks picking the cards they want, all the cards they want. It's what make Magic the popular game it is today. That lcg doesn't offer you that freedom. It force you to play bad cards just to include good ones and makes the few pods who synergize well together nearly broken.
 
Edge battles/Multiple card uses: I wont praise this as awesome mechanic but rather a solution to a problem. When you force people to play cards that won't work with other cards in their deck because they wouldn't have included them at the first place given the choice, you need to give these cards a second use and that why edge battles exist. 
 
Force struggle: Thematic mechanic I will admit but at the end it make the game more difficult to learn for new players for little impact.
 
Destiny is ahead of SW lcg in term of popularity and probably in sell numbers .It has normal deckbuilding rules, it takes into account all star wars univers, not just the OT and obscur Legends young people never heard about, and it is more easy to find a community to play with. FFG wanted to try new things and innovate and I will raise them my hat for that but it is clear now that the market wasn't ready for these innovations. I suspect the Star wars name on the box helps the lcg survive that long but now there is a new star wars kid in town and the town is too small for both.

People have been saying the LCG was dying since the day it was released. There are people who hate the pod system, wish it was the old CCG, or just hate edge battles. However the game isn't dying, it's actually at an amazing spot right now thematically and design wise.

This game will make it to rotation, which is 2 cycles away. With one already On the boat. The game has had delays in shipping it's not a monthly LCG it's at a bi monthly schedule now. This is actually positive for the games life, it means FFG is purposely staggering release of the product to allow for development behind the scenes. They are allowing playtesting to catch up. They have 1 designer on the team, which also shows they aren't looking to kill the game anytime soon. Otherwise they would just move him to L5R full time and be done with it.

All the packs go to the warehouse at once, that means this entire next cycle is probably already there. So they could release it monthly but chose not to. They are taking up valuable warehouse space that could be allocated to another game, but instead the LCG is sitting there costing them money, they wouldn't do that if they weren't going to get a return.

[vilainn6]

My theory is that the Alliance cycle only exist because FFG wasn't sure Destiny would be successful and they weren't ready to pull the plug from the LCG, so they gave it another cycle. Now we know Destiny launch is a success. It would be interresting to see what would happens at the end of the Alliance cycle wich would happens at the same time FFG would launch L5R.  If they anounce a 7th cycle, I will believe FFG cares about the lcg and will continue it.

[Rio]

My theory is that the Alliance cycle only exist because FFG wasn't sure Destiny would be successful and they weren't ready to pull the plug from the LCG, so they gave it another cycle. Now we know Destiny launch is a success. It would be interresting to see what would happens at the end of the Alliance cycle wich would happens at the same time FFG would launch L5R.  If they anounce a 7th cycle, I will believe FFG cares about the lcg and will continue it.

If that were the case and I'm not saying it isn't I think they would've phoned the cycle in. Instead they are adding new game changing mechanics that push design forward for future sets. Now if this cycle has no delays than I will fear the worse, but the LCG had delays since Destiny was released and as I said in the other post, that's actually a good thing. At a bi monthly schedule that gives playtesters and FFG the year they like to test products.

Also the existence of the cash cow of Destiny actually helps the LCG in the long run. If it operates at a loss (which last time FFG released anything it was the #2 LCG in 2015) then Destiny makes up more than enough funds for their card division and Disney to allow them to produce the LCG without anyone asking "why is our Star Wars card portfolio losing money?". It's a niche game, within a niche property.

Honestly I don't play it just for the name, I actually enjoy the mess out of the game. If Destiny was the only Star Wars card game I wouldn't play it just because it was Star Wars, because I don't like Destiny. Im not a fan of CCGs anymore, and I'm honestly not a fan of "deck building" it's a mess cards get everywhere then you have to reorganize them after you build a deck. I can't really play Thrones due to that either. I love the pod system for that reason. It's quick and easy to organize, yet actually really complex, and getting more complex with every cycle.

It's a HARD and unforgiving game, it truly is like chess in card form. Which makes it extremely difficult to demo, and for new players to pick up. To make matters worse it does have a poor core set which is what they normally would use to demo. If it does go-to cycle a revised core would be in order. Which in all honesty is far cheaper production wise than a full out 2.0 edition, especially on the heels of L5R. They literally would have to be testing it as we speak.

But neither of us have any real idea.

[darthbs]

Seeing as this topic is one we discussed on the Carbonite Chamber Interviews series.

Here it is.

Join myself and Chris Kowalski aka Tierdal as we discuss Destiny and whether both it and LCG can coexist.

Then as usual we put some more cards into the carbonite chamber

[Koldro]

My theory is that the Alliance cycle only exist because FFG wasn't sure Destiny would be successful and they weren't ready to pull the plug from the LCG, so they gave it another cycle. Now we know Destiny launch is a success. It would be interresting to see what would happens at the end of the Alliance cycle wich would happens at the same time FFG would launch L5R.  If they anounce a 7th cycle, I will believe FFG cares about the lcg and will continue it.

 

Hi there. Do you mean there is a chance FFG doesn't care about the game and just drop it??

[GreedoShotFirst]

If pricing is an issue, one of our content creators was nice enough to make a competitive guide for new players. 

 

We know that the LCG won't replace Destiny as your favorite game, it might make a good run as a #2 though so you have more to play at Worlds!

 

https://youtu.be/CGiwMjxV7Ns

[CooMasterCoo]

I play both. I love both. Each are on different sides of the fence, so to speak in terms of thinking but all in all, they are both great games.

[Rio]

Hi there. Do you mean there is a chance FFG doesn't care about the game and just drop it??[/size]

Don't listen to him. The game is fine.

[Koldro]

Don't listen to him. The game is fine.

 

Good to hear.

 

I hope you didn't find my lack of faith disturbing...

[meathook]

Loved the LCG for a long time. It had is problems as people have rehashed above. Those problems kept compounding for 3 years which led my entire group to quit playing. None of us has even had an itch to play the LCG in the two years since we quit. I hope it does well as I love Star Wars, but I won't recommend the LCG to anyone.

[vilainn6]

Don't listen to him. The game is fine.

 

We will see this fall if you put your faith at the right place.

 

If FFG was the kind of business to produce games for few hardcore fan, Call of Cthullu would still be around.