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The Conclave

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Best Answer mplain , 27 June 2017 - 06:27 AM

Hello,
 
Yes, you are allowed to look at the facedown cards under the Conclave. 
 
The “Facedown Card” section of the rules doesn’t cover this situation, since it only addresses facedown cards in play, while not explicitly covering if/when you are allowed to look at facedown cards that are out of play. 
 
Thanks!
Danny Schaefer
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11 replies to this topic

#1
VonWibble

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"Reaction: After you win a challenge in which you control a participating Maester character, choose 1 card under this agenda and switch it with the top card of your deck."

 

1) I assume the word choose means you can look at the 7 cards when triggering the reaction, it isn't choose at random?

 

2) Are you allowed to look at the 7 cards at any other time?


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#2
FedericoFasullo

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1 yes

2 you are allowed the same as you are allowed to look at your cards (eg the plot deck)



#3
mplain

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Actually, you are not allowed to look at the cards in your main deck mid-game, so I'm not sure this is a good analogy...

 

http://thronesdb.com...#Facedown_Cards

Some abilities put cards into play facedown. A facedown card has no inherent attributes other than "facedown card," but it may be granted attributes by the card ability that put it into play.

- A player may look at the identity of any facedown card that is in play and under his or her control.

 

http://thronesdb.com...ce#Agenda_Cards

- Agenda cards are not considered "in play." Their text affects the game state from the out of play area while they are active beside a player's faction card.

 

The RRG only refers to facedown cards in play - in particular, stating that you can look at facedown cards that are in play under your control, and in general, referring to cards being put into play facedown. The wording seems to imply that facedown cards can only exist in play - or at least that the designers thought of them that way when writing that RRG entry.

 

However, in other card games there are card effects that instruct a player to "remove cards from the game facedown", and it is not unreasonable to assume that we might get facedown out-of-play cards in AGOT at some point.

 

The agenda card itself is not considered to be in play, but that doesn't quite mean that cards under the agenda are also not in play.

 

I think we can assume that facedown cards under the agenda are in fact considered to be in play, and so their controller can look at them at will. Incidentally, that would mean that we can use Unbridled Generosity to place gold on these facedown cards ;)

 

Actually, cards in the plot deck and in the main deck are in fact facedown cards, and they are not in play. You can look at facedown cards in your plot deck, but you cannot look at facedown cards in your main deck. So I don't see a definite answer...



#4
theamazingmrg

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I am assuming that yes, you can look at the cards under the Agenda, otherwise it's an effectively useless ability outside of situations where you know you have a useless card on top of your deck.

#5
steinerp

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Not useless because you would get to look at them when you choose.  The question is really are you allowed to look at them prior to the first trigger.  (In theory the same could be asked of the plot deck I think)


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#6
theamazingmrg

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Not useless because you would get to look at them when you choose.  The question is really are you allowed to look at them prior to the first trigger.  (In theory the same could be asked of the plot deck I think)


Still pretty useless, as you'd have to make a decision to trigger it before looking at the cards and choosing one.

It has to work like the top-deck dupe on Core Arya (IE, that you can look at it while it's out of your deck). Nothing else makes much sense.

#7
steinerp

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"Makes sense" isn't a good argument as different people see cards with different power levels as "making sense" and "not making sense".  If you can't look at it ahead of time, it definitely makes it weaker.  But the play-ability of a card has little to do with the rules.  There could just as easily be a card that was overpowered if were allowed to look at them but it was designed with the intent that you couldn't.



#8
theamazingmrg

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OK, 'makes sense' wasn't the best wording, but it is logical to assume a card that allows other cards to be removed from the top of the deck and be placed under it should follow the same rules as other cards with a similar effect.

For that reason, if you can look at the facedown card that serves as a duplicate for Core Arya Stark, then you should be able to look at the facedown cards under The Conclave.

The only sticking point in my mind is whether or not the Agenda is treated differently because it is not considered to be in play. But I find it highly unlikely that would be the case for two reasons: First, releasing a card that appears to contradict a similar card is poor form on FFGs part (yes, situations like that have happened before, so it may still be the case) and second, the usability of the agenda plummets if the controlling player can't know in advance what the cards under it are.
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#9
mplain

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If you look at it from the point of view that the agenda takes a part of your DECK and stores it someplace else, it starts making more sense. These cards were in your deck, you're not allowed to look at facedown cards in your deck unless instructed by a card effect. Nothing in the agenda's text gives you permission to do that. Plus, the agenda itself in not in play - that's another argument.

 

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I agree that there is no practical sense in not allowing the player to know what cards got removed. Plus, if the facedown cards under the agenda are indeed hidden information, then how does the reaction work? It says "choose" but it doesn't say "look" - so are we supposed to choose from facedown cards? 



#10
VonWibble

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This is all the thinking I had when posting the question in the first place. 

 

Also the article refers to you likely having economy locations in the 7 cards if you haven't seen any all game, suggesting you don't actually know until you look at the 7. Rules have been incorrectly interpreted in spoiler articles before however. 



#11
mplain

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✓  Best Answer
Hello,
 
Yes, you are allowed to look at the facedown cards under the Conclave. 
 
The “Facedown Card” section of the rules doesn’t cover this situation, since it only addresses facedown cards in play, while not explicitly covering if/when you are allowed to look at facedown cards that are out of play. 
 
Thanks!
Danny Schaefer

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#12
VonWibble

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That's good to know, certainly improves the strength of the agenda.