133 replies to this topic

[Jarratt]

Let's face it a lot of writing in the new books is just as bad as the writing in the old books. It's pulp and generic. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad.

The whole Canon v Legends thing almost seems like a conspiracy to create division between Star Wars fans - are you from the Dark or the Light?

[JediGeekGirl]

Not to me  . From my point of view Dis-Canon is evil!

(I've seen TrEU used for legends far more than I've seen it used for Dis-Canon, generally; might be the fact that almost all the Star Wars discussion I see is pro-legends since that's the canon I'm far more interested in)

That's fine your opinion doesn't affect or limits my enjoyment of canon any less

[JediGeekGirl]

Disney doesnt own Snow Queen, they however own Star Wars and can dictate what canon is or isn't. Calling it Dis-canon is insulting and doesnt help the Star Wars franchise movie forward.

*lucasfilm decides what is and isn't canon, no it's not the same thing. Plans were talked about and discussed long before they were brought. It just happened to take affect after the buy out

[JediGeekGirl]

Reguardless, it is clear that alot of the LCG players are legends fans. Adding canon stuff may not be a bad idea to interest others who aren't playing in the game. There are legends diehards. Me I am on the opposite end. I am a canon purist and to be honest the blowback against canon and the new stuff plays a huge part in me not even being interest in legends. Those who are diehards, you remember what legends did for you? Ya that is what canon is now doing for me and my fandom. No going back will not be the same as what you or others experienced when you first dived in and I am not going to capute that aww and wonder you did. Stop bickering, stop hating, stop judging, and just enjoy the Star Wars you like.

 

[Jarratt]

Reguardless, it is clear that alot of the LCG players are legends fans. Adding canon stuff may not be a bad idea to interest others who aren't playing in the game. There are legends diehards. Me I am on the opposite end. I am a canon purist and to be honest the blowback against canon and the new stuff plays a huge part in me not even being interest in legends. Those who are diehards, you remember what legends did for you? Ya that is what canon is now doing for me and my fandom. No going back will not be the same as what you or others experienced when you first dived in and I am not going to capute that aww and wonder you did. Stop bickering, stop hating, stop judging, and just enjoy the Star Wars you like.

Nicely said.

I also just don't see why it is a war between the two.

[MarioFanaticXV]

*lucasfilm decides what is and isn't canon, no it's not the same thing. Plans were talked about and discussed long before they were brought. It just happened to take affect after the buy out

Firstly, Lucas isn't part of Lucasfilm anymore. Secondly, this brings up a Ship of Theseus paradox, as Lucasfilm isn't the same company it was before the buyout- those that Lucas entrusted with keeping its vision were removed. Thirdly, Lucas was outright LIED TO about how his property would be handled when he sold it.

Do you know why Disney's other movies don't get this kind of backlash? Because they realize they're making something based off the original works, something inspired by them. But here we have Disney going off the deep end and claiming it's a natural continuation of the original works, despite the fact that shared characters of the two series being wildly different in their versions. This is the problem.

There's a simple three step solution Disney could have done to have had their cake and ate it to:

1) Announce that Star Wars canon will be ending in the near future (I'd say five years would probably be sufficient, and we'd be nearing the end of that arc right now if they had done such).
2) Allow loose plot threads to be wrapped up.
3) Start their own canon without pretending it's a natural progression of the original movies.

They'd be rolling in dough either way, and they wouldn't create this divide between Lucas Canon fans and Disney Canon fans.

[JediGeekGirl]

Firstly, Lucas isn't part of Lucasfilm anymore. Secondly, this brings up a Ship of Theseus paradox, as Lucasfilm isn't the same company it was before the buyout- those that Lucas entrusted with keeping its vision were removed. Thirdly, Lucas was outright LIED TO about how his property would be handled when he sold it.Do you know why Disney's other movies don't get this kind of backlash? Because they realize they're making something based off the original works, something inspired by them. But here we have Disney going off the deep end and claiming it's a natural continuation of the original works, despite the fact that shared characters of the two series being wildly different in their versions. This is the problem.There's a simple three step solution Disney could have done to have had their cake and ate it to:1) Announce that Star Wars canon will be ending in the near future (I'd say five years would probably be sufficient, and we'd be nearing the end of that arc right now if they had done such).2) Allow loose plot threads to be wrapped up.3) Start their own canon without pretending it's a natural progression of the original movies.They'd be rolling in dough either way, and they wouldn't create this divide between Lucas Canon fans and Disney Canon fans.

It is clear in your argument of things that you are angry and bitter about how things are. Me I don't care, I am going to enjoy Star Wars right now and not hold onto some negative feelings of a franchise that I love and enjoy. There are better things to worry about and more important things to worry about like the state of this country and my interpersonal-relationship with people.

It is not your place to say what is or isn't the way to go. If you think it should go another way, by all means buy the brand. Until then it best to respect the people that have it, because it is not easy doing what they do. Regardless of how you feel personally about it. It is making more money than it ever has and that is success more so than your personal feelings.

Lastly selfishly I wouldn't be where I am in my fandom if it was not for what they did. For that I am grateful, and I am not alone.

[JediGeekGirl]

Nicely said.
I also just don't see why it is a war between the two.

It is human nature, we fight things that causes change. We are adaptable but we hate to do that. When we find things different we freak out, we get angry, and we try to go back to things that we thought were better and more secure. I speak from my own experience without getting too personal.

[MarioFanaticXV]

If you don't care, then why are you here to begin with?

And while I am angry to a degree, it's kind of hard not to be when you see someone's life work absolutely desecrated by someone they trusted. It's sad to see a beloved series end. It's absolutely infuriating to see someone gut it and spit in the face of those that worked so hard to make it what it was. Blindly accepting change is no different than blindly fighting change. Instead of worrying about whether or not something is change, how about we judge it by whether or not it's a good idea?

You're right to say that there are more important things out there; it's certainly not murder or rape. But it is theft; it's shady business practices where one party did not uphold their word. And while not the most heinous crime there is, it's still a wicked and disgusting thing to see happen to anyone. Before this topic, I disliked Disney's decision on a personal level. But after reading this topic and doing more research on the matter, this is far worse than something I personally dislike, this is something that's flat out wrong.

[Rio]

NO ONE READ THE OLD EU! The maximum penitration for the books are the Thrawn novels, which sold around 5 million copies a book to date. That includes all editions so we know a lot of the are collectors buying multiple copies as well, so let's say 3 million individual copies were sold. That's not a lot at all. So only 3 million people in the US know who Mara Jade is. Now a far greater number know that TFA is Star Wars, Rey is the extension of the franchise. This IS their Star Wars. You are taking it from them because you're a whiny fan, who is upset that their whole self worth just got taken away by an imaginary boogie mouse. You were the Star Wars person, you were the person your friends went to when they wanted to know what happened at the Battle of Tanaab now you don't know. It's a crisis of identity for you, you don't know who you are anymore so you're lashing out and blaiming a corporation for your woes.

[yodaman]

I have to disagree with you about the old (now Legends) EU statement and not just because I did read those books.

 

I think people underestimate what the numbers cited about book sales and what they mean.

 

According to most sources, to be on a best sellers book list it typically takes about 3000 book sales per week.  I have no idea if Zahn's original trilogy sold 3-5 million but lets take the low 3 million end.  That's works out to the equivalent of 1000 weeks of being on the best selling book lists or close to 20 years!  Also, book sales alone do not show the reach of the original Legends EU.  Who knows how many people were introduced to Thrawn and Mara Jade originally because they may borrowed the book from a friend or even a library rather than buying the books.  I personally didn't purchase them initially and got them from a local library to read back in the 90s.  Some people may have even become familiar with EU characters via the Decipher CCG game.  My good friend who I play against on most of my Yoda's Hut videos has never read a Star Wars novel in his life but he knew about Thrawn and Mara because of the Decipher game.

 

Now, I won't argue that more people read the Star Wars novels than go to see the films.  But that's not really my point.  To say nobody read the Legends stuff really isn't true in the context of book sales.  Nearly every one of those books ended up being on best seller lists so relatively speaking they were very successful in the genre and in regards to reaching their target audience (book readers).

 

All that being said, I've liked a lot of both Legends and the current canon materials.  My issues have been more with certain authors than the stories themselves in both versions.  I really didn't care for Karen Traviss or Wendig's writing. 

[Rio]

The only thing that is really Star Wars is the movies. End of story. Everything else is just added on and can and will be changed to fit the movie narrative. The Force Awakens is Star Wars period. This is the direction the franchise is moving, you can either hop on board and enjoy or stay a bitter clinger on to your old legends. I know what I choose. I'm going to enjoy the real Star Wars canon, the one that's actually being crafted and designed by expert story tellers at Lucasfilm the ones George left in charge of the boat when he retired. Kathleen Kennedy has been president of Lucasfilm since 2012 a woman who has produced billions of dollars worth of movies since Raiders in 81. Dave Faloni has been working on Star Wars since 07 well before the sale, still there. Doug Chen designed the look of the prequels, he is still there designing star wars.

This is the future. You're on the wrong side of history.

[Mattropolis]

I never understand this argument. It's dumb. The old EU was fine, far from perfect, but I loved it just the same and consumed a bunch of it. And now I love the new canon and consume a bunch of it.

 

However, the old EU also grew so big and unwieldy that it was hampering new fans from jumping in easily, and it would have severely hampered what stories they could tell on the big screen, whether through Lucas or through Disney.

 

My personal feelings are that any expanded universe-type materials for any mega franchise like this just need rebooted every so often no matter what, or these problems (inhibiting new fans and new on-screen stories) will always eventually happen.

 

I think this is why you see Marvel and DC and other big franchises reboot it every so often.

 

We need and want new fans to be able to jump in easily so that the fandom continues to grow and advance. You don't want to end up like the fractured Star Trek fandom that has Roddenberry purists that "love" Star Trek but refuse to watch or accept anything that's come out since the 1980's. Does anyone really want to end up like that? There's so much fun Star Wars stuff coming out now. Lighten up and enjoy it. Don't let your hate consume you (a pretty big Star Wars lesson, afterall) over which fictional books and movies folks choose to enjoy.

[Rio]

I never understand this argument. It's dumb. The old EU was fine, far from perfect, but I loved it just the same and consumed a bunch of it. And now I love the new canon and consume a bunch of it.
 
However, the old EU also grew so big and unwieldy that it was hampering new fans from jumping in easily, and it would have severely hampered what stories they could tell on the big screen, whether through Lucas or through Disney.
 
My personal feelings are that any expanded universe-type materials for any mega franchise like this just need rebooted every so often no matter what, or these problems (inhibiting new fans and on-screen stories) will always eventually happen.
 
I think this is why you see Marvel and DC and other big franchises reboot it every so often.
 
We need and want new fans to be able to jump in easily so that the fandom continues to grow and advance. You don't want to end up like the fractured Star Trek fandom that has Roddenberry purists that "love" Star Trek but refuse to watch or accept anything that's come out since the 1980's. Does anyone really want to end up like that? There's so much fun Star Wars stuff coming out now. Lighten up and enjoy it. Don't let your hate consume you (a pretty big Star Wars lesson, afterall) over which fictional books and movies folks choose to enjoy.

I agree with you. I just get triggered when people use terms like TrEU and Dis-conon just liked prequel hate triggered me before. Sorry if I got dirty. You're Star Wars and my Star Wars isn't better than anyone else's. Just let people enjoy it the way they want to.

I LOVE JAR JAR!!!!!!!

[JediGeekGirl]

If you don't care, then why are you here to begin with?And while I am angry to a degree, it's kind of hard not to be when you see someone's life work absolutely desecrated by someone they trusted. It's sad to see a beloved series end. It's absolutely infuriating to see someone gut it and spit in the face of those that worked so hard to make it what it was. Blindly accepting change is no different than blindly fighting change. Instead of worrying about whether or not something is change, how about we judge it by whether or not it's a good idea?You're right to say that there are more important things out there; it's certainly not murder or rape. But it is theft; it's shady business practices where one party did not uphold their word. And while not the most heinous crime there is, it's still a wicked and disgusting thing to see happen to anyone. Before this topic, I disliked Disney's decision on a personal level. But after reading this topic and doing more research on the matter, this is far worse than something I personally dislike, this is something that's flat out wrong.

You do know that a lot of the people that decided to classify legends as legends are huge legends fans themselves right? Not only are they huge fans, they also help create that universe. Even the father of legends himself is not upset, so why you are you "a fan' so upset?

I am here because it is people who voice your opinion who don't take into consideration what has been done for fans like myself. If things were your way I wouldn't be where I am in my fandom and I am sorry but the small amount of people Who are upset are minor compared to a large amount of people who are now fans because of that business decision. And make no mistake it was a business decision. You can stay bitter or you can enjoy Star Wars however you want to, your books are always there to read. Your games are always there to play. Stop being selfish and realize that things have to evolve to stay relevant. They evolved when the prequels came out, they evolved when Disney bought the property, and they will evolve again. This is why Star Wars is the cultural phenomenon it is compared to say Lord of the rings.

[JediGeekGirl]

Double post

[JediGeekGirl]

Double post

[JediGeekGirl]

I agree with you. I just get triggered when people use terms like TrEU and Dis-conon just liked prequel hate triggered me before. Sorry if I got dirty. You're Star Wars and my Star Wars isn't better than anyone else's. Just let people enjoy it the way they want to.
I LOVE JAR JAR!!!!!!!

Did we just become friends?

[Arkard]

I don't really care what's canon or not. I'd rather pick the cool stuff from the old EU and then forget the lame stuff. It doesn't all work with Force Awakens, but most of the good stuff takes place in the OT era and that stuff doesn't really go away for me with the recent canon change. It's still all Star Wars to me. That's why I hope this game still picks things from the old EU if it's actually good content that fits the game.

[MarioFanaticXV]

Even the father of legends himself is not upset, so why you are you "a fan' so upset?

He wasn't upset about it? This quote says otherwise. I realize he has tried to say nice things about the new series, but let's face it, that's just him being political; there are plenty of quotes which show he's pretty upset about the way things have been handled, and really, who can blame him? He was backstabbed and now has to watch his legacy treated in a disrespectful manner.
 

I am here because it is people who voice your opinion who don't take into consideration what has been done for fans like myself. If things were your way I wouldn't be where I am in my fandom and I am sorry but the small amount of people Who are upset are minor compared to a large amount of people who are now fans because of that business decision. And make no mistake it was a business decision. You can stay bitter or you can enjoy Star Wars however you want to, your books are always there to read. Your games are always there to play. Stop being selfish and realize that things have to evolve to stay relevant. They evolved when the prequels came out, they evolved when Disney bought the property, and they will evolve again. This is why Star Wars is the cultural phenomenon it is compared to say Lord of the rings.

Are you suggesting Lord of the Rings isn't a major cultural phenomenon? I don't consider myself a major fan of the series, but it's lasted a lot longer than Star Wars has, and on top of that, it set the template for these sort of things. Before Lord of the Rings, the idea of an author creating a nuance, intricate, detailed fictional world for their story was completely foreign. Lord of the Rings did it first. And while I'm pretty casual as a LotR fan, I'd at least have enough respect for it that if something happened like, say, someone trying to say Shadows of Mordor replaces the original canon and is now "duh tru cannon", I'd feel sympathy for those who are major fans of the series. I wouldn't be greedy and throw them under the bus just because I found Shadows of Mordor to be a fun game.

Beyond that, I find it ironic you call me selfish when you're the one that's made it quite clear you really don't care who Disney hurts. You keep going on about "fans like you", but I'm sorry: You're not a fan; if you weren't a fan of Star Wars until two movies came out that contradict the original movies, you aren't a fan of Star Wars to begin with. Seriously, you consider Rogue One to be worth more than all six of the main Lucas canon films combined? You'd really take that one and throw out those six films? Without those six films, you wouldn't have your beloved fanfiction to begin with.