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Have they gone too far with Valar Dohaeris ?

- - - - - Plot Valar Dohaeris

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#1
Vrgmaister

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https://thronesdb.co...cards/08020.png

 

Is it me, or this plot is the most powerful plot yet to be released? While Valar has its stat weaknesses, low gold, 0 claim and initiative, and can be played around, and Duel has its counters (Eyrie, Marched to the Wall for your second 6-7drop, having some not-so-important 1x6drops on the board to soak etc.) and it limits your deckbuilding, this plot literally has no weaknesses, no counters, and it is such a huge tempo swing that i think will be enough to completely remove from the meta factions who traditionally relied on big characters such as Stark, Lannister, Greyjoy, Baratheon, and that's a big deal for sure and my first impression of it.



#2
BustaMazoo

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It's strong, but I personally don't think it's unbalanced. It means players have another option for reset, and what's good about this is that it's adapted to be useful for different situations from the other resets. You want VM if your deck is slow and you know you'll need a complete wipe at some point to reset the game. (With that said about half the time I put Valar in my deck it ends up biting me in the ass.) Wildfire is good if you feel your bombs will be able to outpace or at least match your opponent's bombs. It also works well with control - Bara kneel, Stark's Marriage Pact, etc. - which can neutralise big characters. VD simply means you'll need to curve out your deck a little bit more - make sure you can have your 7 bomb out with a 1- and a 2-coster so you still have solid board presence and some military protection. And your characters aren't being killed or discarded, so with a shuffle effect there's a reasonable chance of getting them back.

 

What I like about this plot is that, like Duel, it prevents the opponent with better economy from barfing out bombs with impunity. And while it looks like it would be good for weenie decks, and it is, there aren't many decks out there I'm aware of that rely solely on 1, 2, or 3 costers. Even NW KoS needs 4 costers to really get rolling.



#3
Unification

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Lannisters should like it, what with their habit of not gambling against themselves.


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#4
FedericoFasullo

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It was needed in the core set along with great hall, so no, they haven't gone too far :|


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#5
OutOfFactionWarlord

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I also agree that it's a good card.  I feel the plot pool is still lacking from viable alternatives for deck building.  Having several different types of "build around" resets, allows you to branch further in deck construction.  Comparing with the core set, you really only had Wildfire for a plot that could impact a full board.  Because this was the only option, decks with the strongest big guys had a huge advantage because they knew even your opponents reset was going to benefit them.

 

Having 6 or 7 options that all behave in slightly different ways multiplies the possibilities significantly, allowing you to pick a reset that synergizes with your design and counters whatever you perceive as the biggest weakness.

 

I'm hoping they continue giving solid alternatives to staple plots, that also have interesting interactions or drawbacks that are orthogonal to each other.


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#6
theamazingmrg

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Nope.

#7
Vrgmaister

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"It's strong, but I personally don't think it's unbalanced. It means players have another option for reset, and what's good about this is that it's adapted to be useful for different situations from the other resets. You want VM if your deck is slow and you know you'll need a complete wipe at some point to reset the game. (With that said about half the time I put Valar in my deck it ends up biting me in the ass.) Wildfire is good if you feel your bombs will be able to outpace or at least match your opponent's bombs. It also works well with control - Bara kneel, Stark's Marriage Pact, etc. - which can neutralise big characters. VD simply means you'll need to curve out your deck a little bit more - make sure you can have your 7 bomb out with a 1- and a 2-coster so you still have solid board presence and some military protection. And your characters aren't being killed or discarded, so with a shuffle effect there's a reasonable chance of getting them back.

 

What I like about this plot is that, like Duel, it prevents the opponent with better economy from barfing out bombs with impunity. And while it looks like it would be good for weenie decks, and it is, there aren't many decks out there I'm aware of that rely solely on 1, 2, or 3 costers. Even NW KoS needs 4 costers to really get rolling."

 

"there aren't many decks out there I'm aware of that rely solely on 1, 2, or 3 costers"

 
I understand your doubts, but its not about having no big characters at all, it is about how much you rely on them. If you have to return a 4/5 coster in the deck as NW, you probably wont be too sad about it, but if I have to lose Cersei or Tywin with power tokens on them, or Balon/Euron/Victarion, I received such a heavy blow to my win condition. If i have to give up Deanerys but get to keep my dragons and burn, while my opponent loses key characters and crucial power tempo, I will always take it.

 

So the main problem is, houses like stark lannister greyjoy, and to some degree bara/tyrel, do not really have lower cost characters that can carry the game. Their lower cost characters are for the most part designed to support the big ones, and they have great support characters, but Caitlyn (Core), arya, bran, etc. cannot carry the game, so for example Starks literately must include renown high costers to win the game. At the moment there is no other option. And when you do it, when you play few high costers with dupes and bodyguards (because you dont want them lost to valar/varys).... BAM this plot goes off and you lost the game because you lost too much tempo,power and cards with dupes/attachments.

 

That is where my concern for this plot is at. On the surface it might looks like anti-First Snow that works on big dude decks, but its much stronger than that because it can not be saved and those characters don't return to your hand, and because those high costers will often lose some power with them that is also part of your decks win condition lost. As a consequence, these factions might perish from meta for some time like Tyrel, NW and some other decks did when the First snow was released, and of course if my maybe-rather-extreme opinion turned out to be true, it would be bad for our diversity of our games. 



#8
Abyss

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Personally, I'd argue it's less VD being a problem, and more that certain factions are too linear and one dimensional in terms of their playstyles (or at least their 'obvious' playstyle). If there were more varied options then just 'here's a power card', then VD would be less impactful.



#9
VonWibble

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Not a problem card, a good addition to the game that prevents people just spewing out characters. A duped 6 coster plus a 1 and a 3 is still a decent board to build on. If you want to be greedy and have 3+ 6+ costers, you have to accept you can lose out. 

 

And as an aside, Stark benefit from this plot, not lose out. Arya, Sansa, Bran and Hodor would make a very solid board to build on. A low curve knights and ladies deck with some combination of Tyrell and Stark would consider this reset a great fit imo. 


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#10
IMABUNNEH

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So one of the current problem boards is when your opponent sees multiple 6+ cost dudes with Bodyguards/IronMines/Dupes to cover them all.

 

This answers a problem that Valar Morghulis doesn't.


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#11
Ire

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Probably not yet problematic, but we are close to the fun "reset board every round" playstyle, gets even more fun if they decide to print location reset as well to be combined with all the character resets.


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#12
Khudzlin

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Well, there's Political Disaster already.



#13
FedericoFasullo

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A more cute location reset



#14
Lannitik

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No. 



#15
Reclusive

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1t2cx3.jpg


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#16
Normie

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I think it looks great actually, the game is in sore need of a reset that targets the 6-7 characters with ridiculously powerful abilities that are easily protected by saves from all the current reset effects. A lot of times, if I see someone marshal Euron + Iron Mines or Cersei with a dupe/bodyguard or etc. on the first turn or two, then I pretty much already lost even if I have Valar Morghulis or Varys.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Plot, Valar Dohaeris