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Mace Tyrell

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Best Answer mplain , 11 August 2017 - 09:04 PM

1. Yes, the beginning of a phase is “during” that phase. For instance, if Mace used his ability during the challenges phase, the character would return during the dominance phase.

2. Yes, based on the timing outlined in the FAQ, those reactions would occur outside of the phase.

3. After talking this through with Nate, we would rule that Barring the Gates will not prevent the character from re-entering play, per the rule you cited. Mace’s ability is not causing the character to enter play; rather his ability caused the character to leave play, and the expiration of his effect is returning the character to play.
For an analogous situation, imagine if Barring the Gates read: "Card abilities cannot cause characters’ STR to be lowered.” If such a plot were revealed, and a participating character was given a +2 STR using Iron Fleet Scout, that character’s STR would still go back to normal at the end of the challenge, rather than remaining at +2 indefinitely. In general, the game treats the expiration of an ability as something separate than the ability, which means a card that enters play due to the expiration of a lasting effect is not entering play using a card ability.

4. The character would remain removed from the game indefinitely. The character attempts to re-enter play immediately upon the expiration of Mace’s lasting effect at the beginning of the next phase. If it cannot enter play at that time, it will remain removed from the game, and there are no longer any abilities acting on it that would cause it to re-enter play at a later time.

Thanks!
Danny Schaefer

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#1
mplain

mplain

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Mace Tyrell

Action: Kneel your faction card to remove another Tyrell character from the game until the beginning of the next phase.


"Until the beginning of the phase" is an unusual timing that we didn't have before.

1) Does this happen *during* the next phase? Relevant for "enters play during the X phase" abilities (e.g. Olenna's Informant).

2) The FAQ says that the expiration of lasting effects "until the end of the phase" is "the precise moment at which the phase ends, and anything that occurs as a result of the next two steps occurs outside of the phase". Does this mean that any Reactions to a game state change caused by the expiration of such lasting effect would be triggered outside of any phase? (similar to how Tears of Lys cannot trigger Crossroads Sellsword)

3) Is the game state change caused by the expiration of Mace Tyrell's lasting effect considered to be "caused by a card ability", i.e. does the plot Barring the Gates prevent the character from returning to play?
Some people argue that this should be similar to how the expiration of a "-X STR" lasting effect doesn't cause Randyll Tarly to trigger, however that interaction is governed by the RRG entry that says: "The expiration of a lasting effect (or the cessation of a constant ability) is not considered to be generating a game state change by a card effect." 'Card effect' and 'card ability' are different things, e.g. ability costs are not card effects but are part of a card ability (Barring the Gates blocks Podrick Payne).

4) If the character removed from the game by Mace Tyrell cannot reenter play because another copy of it is in the dead pile, does it remain removed from the game forever, or will it enter play as soon as Close Call removes the other copy from the dead pile?

#2
mplain

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✓  Best Answer

1. Yes, the beginning of a phase is “during” that phase. For instance, if Mace used his ability during the challenges phase, the character would return during the dominance phase.

2. Yes, based on the timing outlined in the FAQ, those reactions would occur outside of the phase.

3. After talking this through with Nate, we would rule that Barring the Gates will not prevent the character from re-entering play, per the rule you cited. Mace’s ability is not causing the character to enter play; rather his ability caused the character to leave play, and the expiration of his effect is returning the character to play.
For an analogous situation, imagine if Barring the Gates read: "Card abilities cannot cause characters’ STR to be lowered.” If such a plot were revealed, and a participating character was given a +2 STR using Iron Fleet Scout, that character’s STR would still go back to normal at the end of the challenge, rather than remaining at +2 indefinitely. In general, the game treats the expiration of an ability as something separate than the ability, which means a card that enters play due to the expiration of a lasting effect is not entering play using a card ability.

4. The character would remain removed from the game indefinitely. The character attempts to re-enter play immediately upon the expiration of Mace’s lasting effect at the beginning of the next phase. If it cannot enter play at that time, it will remain removed from the game, and there are no longer any abilities acting on it that would cause it to re-enter play at a later time.

Thanks!
Danny Schaefer