111 replies to this topic

[sparrowhawk]

Hakkor. You make a very good point. The high density of attachments in Dragon protects your higher investments when opponent runs at most 3 copies of removal. A Phoenix build that runs 12 attachments (Fan, Katana, Cloud, Pacifism) is more prone to Let Go Pacifism tempo loss than Dragon that poses attachment threats from turn 1 for cumulative benefit unless dealt with now.

 

You've made me appraise Kazue to more than x1 as per my OP. But the issue I still have with Way of the Dragon is lack of good hosts that Nightcrawler also mentions. Once that is corrected, I will definitely experiment with it.

 

"Some mules will ponder the reflection in the pool..."

[ellonellanfair]

I look at Way of the Dragon as a mid to late game attachment. You do not want it exposed to attachment control so early. That's why i think it's cost is reasonable and even affordable given that you'll be using your Daimyo's Favor early game for those 1 cost attachments and then use it for way of the dragon on mid to late game. As for hosts of the attachment, Raitsugu, Yokuni, Enlightened Warrior and Niten Adept (must have Above Question or Reprieve) are worthy.

 

One of my games has a monster tower Raitsugu in the mid to late game containing 2x Daisho, Way of the Dragon, Kazue, Above Question, Duelist Training who just wrecks all defenders or gets Indomitable Will if unopposed. Not even afraid of losing Way of the Dragon and Kazue in this setup.

 

I think Way of the Dragon is a 2x. Going to 3x must be justified by deck composition.

[sparrowhawk]

Just learnt from mplain's super useful FAQ PDF that Yokuni cannot make use of Way of the Dragon (max. rule as per Investigator).

Yokuni can copy Investigator to give 2 uses of that ability (where before 2 Investigators can only use it once in total) but can't copy opponent's Yokuni.

It seems like they have last minute nerfed Way of the Dragon for probably good reason but this has created a few inconsistencies and unintuitiveness.

Larik is very thorough in collating rulings.

Way of the Dragon remains x0

It doesn't invalidate Hakkor's point that a plethora of attachments protects higher cost ones played later game.

[Kingsley]

Dragon review is up for those who are interested.

[Asklepios]

So, alliances.

 

Keeper of Void is a good role, as being void-attacked is a common experience for us. Also, that big stack of influence allows us some nice fishing for outside attachments.

 

My initial build has been Dragon/Crab, for Watch Commander and Reprieve.

 

Reprieve has been VERY good, as it can help keen a voltron going one turn longer, or more importantly, it can make a strong 2-coster safe to play fate onto, barring DOUBLE assassinate. Agasha Swordsmith, Niten Adept, and to a lesser extent, Seeker of Enlightenment are all really good for their cost, but you really want at least 2 fate on them. Reprieve is even better for Niten Adept, because while it is in play it serves an additional function - powering the ability text.

 

Watch Commander, otoh, has been okay, but not as solid as I hoped, as Dragon don't really put Dishonour pressure on opponents. A savvy opponent will be bidding low till they find Restoration of Balance anyway, and Dragon tends to need to draw a lot of cards to set its combos up.

 

So right now I'm feeling less enthused by Dragon/Crab.

 

Now thinking Dragon/Crane.

 

Above Question isn't that great in Crane but I think it could serve Dragon really well, as it stops Assassinate, and more importantly, it negates almost every soft control bow-effect, which are the absolute bane of dragon. Nothing worse than having 8 strength in one character getting bowed.

 

The other 7 influence though, I'm not so sure where to go with. Height of Fashion is kind of expensive, and is too one-sided in its stats for Dragon's more balanced approach, though as we can only take 2 copies that might be okay anyway. Duelist Training could be easy to win with very high military values on one character, but it starts getting too much eggs-in-one-basket.

 

As an added bonus, none of these three cards belong in my Crane deck!

 

Any thoughts on this or other alliances?

[Asklepios]

Anyway, first deck I'm sharing on this site. Comments welcome.

 

Dynasty Deck
3x Togashi Initiate
3x Agasha Swordsmith
3x Seeker of Enlightenment
3x Keeper Initiate (a really bad fit, but not sure what else to use. Neutral weenies maybe)
3x Enlightened Warrior
3x Kitsuki Investigator
2x Mirumoto Prodigy (don't like these guys much. May replace with neutral weenies)
3x Imperial Storehouse
2x Secluded Temple
3x Niten Master
3x Mirumoto Raitsugu
3x Niten Adept
3x Togashi Yokuni
3x Doomed Shugenja

Conflict Deck
3x Ornate Fan
3x Tattooed Wanderer
3x Let Go
2x Assassination (may not belong, considering dropping these)
3x Mirumoto's Fury
3x Above Question
3x Daimyo's Favor
3x Togashi Kazue
3x Ancestral Daisho
3x Court Games
2x Height of Fashion
3x Kitsuki's Method
3x Fine Katana
3x Indomitable Will

Stronghold
1x Mountain's Anvil Castle

Province Cards
1x Manicured Garden
1x Pilgrimage
1x Elemental Fury
1x Ancestral Lands
1x Restoration of Balance
 

[FightingWalloon]

If you drop assassination don't let on. Two drops with fate on them could be very annoying.

[Asklepios]

Yes, Assassination is such a good card it's hard to drop.

 

However, like Endless Plains, its existence is enough to change the way opponents play, and you keep half its value even when its not in your deck.

 

But sure, if I dropped it, I wouldn't advertise that.

 

Of course if I were intending to create opportunities to use it, maybe I'd imply I was dropping it publicly!

 

L5R meets Xanatos Gambit!

[sparrowhawk]

@Asklepios

The build looks very solid to me. Dragon is a natural home for Above Question (esp. Niten Adept) and the usual plethora of attachments protects your later game Fashion statements against the limited attachment removal (that will prioritise Ancestral). Both adding to the Swordsmith search.

Here are some amendments you could consider (reasons given below):

-2 Secluded Temple
+3 Favourable Ground
+1 Mirumoto Prodigy
-2 Seeker of Enlightenment

-2 Togashi Kazue
-2 Assassination
+3 Banzai
+1 Duelist Academy

-1 Elemental Fury
+1 Rally the Cause

Here are some reasons for these changes:

With the move to smaller boards, Mirumoto's Prodigy has had bad press but with 3x Above Question, Prodigy is a lot better (because you can play it with lots of Fate then play Above Question in the Draw phase). Wanderer on it to creates cheap wins against many defences (ideally Water to bow a character targeted by covert)

Prodigy is also great with Favourable Ground. The latter also helps when they overcommit to defending against any solo Voltron which you can then recall. In a build that has a lot of force in 1 character, having mobility makes sense. At worst Ground saves you 1 Honour as you defend bowed because Dragon with 4 characters in play is rare. As for worries of running 6 disposable holdings, because of the Hearthstone mulligan and Dragon deploys thin/tall/long, you are far less reliant on your province slots and only voluntarily discard Keeper Initiates that you fail to put into play (unless weenie flooded).

I dislike Seeker of Enlightenment more than Prodigy and that's because the monk deck isn't sifficiently fleshed out in the Core pool. I also dislike Secluded Temple because it looks great but you don't want to incentivise the opponent to deploy long and thin and claim the pass bonus instead of you. Dragon is very hungry for Fate so must angle to claim that bonus every turn if possible. This may mean taking overlap beats in early rounds. Yes Secluded Temple can be killer against swarm builds. But you want to often play 2 characters as first player then pass and as 2nd player you often play 1 character long then pass (but not at the start). Do you really want to force your opponent to alter their tempo to play around your visible threat and thereby rob you of the 1F bonus? The holding seems to divide opinion but I think it forces opponents to play in a better shape against you. Especially if you play 0x Assassination.

1x Togashi Kazue as she is so telegraphed by her cost and only steals once without help (like Favourable Ground) and is then reduced to transfer between own characters. Unique is also a restriction by card so you can only have 1 of her in play in either format. Her cost and baiting out attachment removal means she's best played later like Height of Fashion.

0x Assassination because you have so few events so this only heightens the probability of it being cancelled but also due to your Honour pressure. This is due to unopposed and opponent bidding low until they find Restoration. This is assuming you are playing against strangers online. Against a regular face-to-face opponent, I would keep 1 instead of the Duellist Academy below (for bonus points, let it fall face up whilst shuffling).

3x Banzai because this is the high variance military card that defines this conflict type. You need it to cancel their surprise spikes as well as surprise yourself. It also works well with the next card (that you play afterwards so Banzai in Political is not cancelled).

1x Duellist Academy as you are balanced so a surprise Military duel bow during a Political is worth the 13th influence. That Niten Master who already has a Weapon from prior turn is attacking in Political at STR 3 then opponent defends with a honoured Venerable Scholar. Many situations turn this card to 1 cost "bow opposing target of 5 less Military" (Damyo's Favour can reduce cost to 0). With bow more powerful than expel in many cases, this may be a step too cute but Dragon's balanced stats are ideal at wrongfooting the relevant skill. It's also an attachment for Swordsmith with repeat deterrent and unlikely to attract attachment hate (reserved for Ancestral).

Rally the Cause instead of Elemental Fury. The problem with Rally the Cause is that you yourself may have the wrong unbalanced character waiting to defend so it can backfire when attacked by balanced but here, you are balanced. Like Elemental Fury is the obvious Phoenix water province, Rally the Cause is the obvious Dragon water province with its ability to interfere with the Lion, Unicorn and Crane strongholds and other conflict type specific effects like Charge, Cavalry Reserves, Asami and Shoju. I am also uncomfortable giving the attacker another ring when Dragon puts Fate on rings...


A bit of sacrilege here, you've been infecting me with your "challenging orthodoxy" ethos. I'm not saying these changes would end up improving the deck, just that these are tweaks you might consider with some reasons why.

Overall, with just 2 changes (water province, at least 1 less Kazue for a Banzai), I'd be very happy to be given your deck to pilot. It's the first Dragon (Crane) deck list in this thread and a good post contributing towards forum knowledge.

[Asklepios]

Great post, will think on those things, especially the natural synergy of Prodigy and Favourable Ground.

 

Personally I've found secluded temple extremely disruptive to opponent deploys. In fact, 2 nights ago I played a game against Caldera where he opened with his Champion with 2 fate, and I declined to play any characters at all! That character lost their two fate, and I subsequently countered the attack with Mirumoto's Fury and deployed a character from hand to counterattack...

 

Of course, Caldera admits that was his mistake rather than my clever play, though it takes some nerve to pass as your first dynasty action.

 

Even so, I'm a big fan of the holding, as it's quite easy to either create situations where it triggers, or to make opposing deploys suboptimal.

 

Also surprised to hear you don't like Seeker of Enlightenment. I'd say the Adept and the Swordsmith are better two-costers, for sure, but there's a lot to be said for a big cheap beatstick, especially when there's so many dragons that spend fate to rings or punish opponents for taking fate off rings. 

[sparrowhawk]

Great story about passing turn 1, winning 1-0 on rings (plus -1H loss to him) and saving so much Fate for turn 2 against an empty board. Did Wamma start this public embarrassing with his blog quoting you?

Caldera appreciated afterwards that this was poor play as he could see your 2 Secluded Temple in your opening flop. Yes, this forces him to eschew his opening (which is just too ballsy, I prefer to mulligan away my champion for later when I may have excess Fate and definitely will have 1+ characters from prior turn). Seeing them, he should have opened with an expendable + no Fate, then see your response. If you respond as Dragon usually does with a 3F+ character with 2F then he passes. Now he has saved his Fate for turn 2, gained a 2 Fate swing passing and still has a ring win character that you need to counter (in your case with 1C+1F Mirumoto's Glory). As first player, he can Fire Ring to Dishonour your +2F Voltron (you are Keeper of Void for situations like this but Void has little value against his +0F expendable) else Earth Ring for maximum Conflict disruption + card gain (Water Ring doesn't hurt him either so Earth would probably be best as it would be your best choice).

This is all very easy to write in the cold light of analysis. I remember yesterday I played Calling the Favours to move a Fan to my ready already Honoured Kaezin (who I wanted to attack in Political, yet undeclared) instead of my bowed Brash Samurai, both with +1F on them (a great opening I part-mulliganed into). I regretted the short-termism of my decision. The game can be punishing and we all make "Doh!" mistakes as we are learning (a monk may say we are always learning).

I personally believe the existence of Secluded Temple is good enough to shape your opponent's thinking on his deployment. In much the same way that Restoration of Balance shapes his bidding. I don't use either and prefer Meditations on the Tao because players attack your provinces with Fated up characters (as they expect Restoration and want to stay thin for Temple) and then are ambushed by Meditations. Decisions are all interlinked. If Dragon ever became Keeper of Water, then Secluded Temple will go up in value. If you are insistent on having them, then maybe 3x Admit Defeat instead of 2x Height of Fashion as you are forcing the opponent to deploy thinner, hence defend solo (also with Prodigy). I personally feel they will go down in value as players learn how to play around them (as is the case with Restoration, Art of Peace, Defend the Wall etc). Maybe in the current learner meta, they are great but I prefer the neutral alternatives.

I don't see how Seeker of Enlightenment could be viewed as a beat stick. You must be playing a lot of very small boards or turtling defensive players that leave a lot of Rings unclaimed. Because draws go to attacker and only attacker claims ring effect. The 3 Dragon characters that add Fate to rings (Initiate, Investigator, Visionary which you rightly skip) require participation so you never manipulate its value as solo attack is de rigeur. Worse, only Investigator can trigger in defence for you to then claim the Fate you spent. Maybe my local meta are learner Fate whores but Ishiken Initiate is more a beat stick here (shame it has anti-synergy with Meddling Mediator that tries to set up Tsukune) . I agree it has great synergy with Enlightened Warrior but it's your only card that punishes opponent for claiming Fate currently. It's all part of a Monk build (Mantle of Fire another punish card) that will be really interesting when it crystalises. But I have not been impressed by it in my local meta. No doubt this is a function of opponents' play styles and Clans (e.g. playing Lion and Unicorn that attack a lot, Intimidating Hida that promotes 2 attacks per turn etc). I may well be wrong here and Seeker is indeed a beat stick.

Of course we are all learning here so just take my words as an alternative viewpoint. I must add it's really refreshing having these civilised debates with reasons with you - time warp! I am extremely happy the game finally clicked with you as I enjoy your open exploration and often found myself changing my stance to adopt your alternative viewpoint.

[Asklepios]

Good point on not running Restoration of Balance, as to be honest once it is revealed it loses all impact. Maybe its best to not have it there at all so that my opponent is low drawing right till they see my Stronghold presence! Bit of a metagame thing there though - do that too much, and soon folk will be assuming that Restoration isn't there... which is when we add it back in again.

 

What I'm going to do is mix it up a bit, keep folk guessing.

 

Secluded Temple isn't as good a disruptor when not present though, as I can't imagine many players will play around it if it isn't there. Sure, they might veer slightly towards a wider board, but nobody is going to hold off placing fate altogether just because Temple exists. It has to be on the board to disrupt.

 

Right now, I suspect this comes down to personal experiences. I've been irritated by Temple from the other side of the board, and seen it disrupt others. Occasionally, it even triggers its ability.

 

The thing about Seeker as a beat stick is the timing of things. It's not at all uncommon for a turn to end with 2-4 unclaimed fate on rings, and at that time the Seekers are still in my dynasty deck. The next turn, when I deploy them, it's too late for the opponent to manipulate that situation, at least for the first conflict of the round.

[Botais]

I have had good success with a Crane splash, running Above Question, Duelist Training and Admit Defeat. Splitting the splash between three different cards is a bit unfortunate for consistency but I found some rather amazing synergy to work with. Maybe I am lucky, but thanks to some forethought I have won quite a few games with a single loaded up Mirumoto Prodigy breaking a stronghold by herself. Above Question to protect her, Duelist Training or Admit Defeat to bow whatever defender the opponent does send (or using a Tattooed Wander to at least exlude the worst possible defender) and then just load her up on Katanas/Daishos/Fans/Methods as appropriate for the break. There is also some incredible synergy with Favorable Ground as sparrowhack mentioned for moving in heavy hitters after the conflict initiates.

 

I am actually running a  Secluded Temple but that is only because my personal nemesis in my local meta is an avid Lion player. I am not sure I would make space for it in a tournament deck. However, unlike not running Restoration of Balance for the fake out mind games, I do not believe not running Secluded Temple is going to impact your opponent's plays. A holding is way more telegraphed then a province and the Temple does not seem to be too popular anyways, so most opponents do not seem to consider it flopping anyway.

 

I also agree with cutting Seeker of Enlightenment. It is one of these cards that seem like they could do some great work, but it just never seems to work out that way in play. Either you pay 2F for what ends up being a 4/4 (good) but have to pick a Ring you do not really care for, or more likely get a 3/3 for 2F. And then there is the danger of Assassination and my Above Questions are usually already reserved to ensure my Niten Adepts and Mirumoto Prodigies make an impact. If the themes of "pay Fate to Rings" and monks get more love in the future, she could definitely become quite neat.

[GKZhukov]

What conclusion did you guys come to on splashes?

 

I'm drawn to Crane for Above Question to protect voltrons and Admit Defeat for Prodigy (also tempted by Duellist Training since the ancestral attachments recur to buff your hand-size, but think I'd prefer 3x AQ and AD)

 

However, I also like the idea of Unicorn for Spyglass (because it's Spyglass) and Mount since there are plenty of Dragon abilities that work even if your character is bowed (and you can double trigger with Way of the Dragon, though Dragon + Mount may be a risky investment without the AQ from Crane), plus Mount combos nicely with Prodigy too. Throw in a single Captive Audience with the remaining 3 influence (maybe stick Fortified Position under your stronghold).

 

Thoughts?

[Hakkor]

That's one of the ways to go I'm sure is excellent in Dragon (and currently my favourite). Above question is core, Admit defeat makes Prodigy a province breaker and Duellist Training works with Voltrons. You could even consider Perfect Gift if the agasha swordsmith doesn't find you the Daymios Favor, which is vital if you intend to voltron.

 

Anyway, I have started to test a tempo Dragon/ crab deck with 3 Good Omen, 3 Mantra of Fire, 2 Kazue and 2 Reprieves. I want to see what are the effects if you reduce drastically the control cards or control counter cards (was even consiering reducing the copies of Let Go, since it does not buff MY characters), and focus in keeping cost 3+ characters as long as possible on the board, armed to the teeth. The idea is to get maximum value of your attachments, so your opponent needs to constantly play their hand to keep your voltron at bay. Play defensively (mountain does not fall or ninten adept + favored ground) and see if turn after turn your board increases in size until it's unstoppable. Temple / Raitsugu / Tetsubo team up to get rid of any troublesome characters, increasing the board advantage and the upcoming snowball.

 

After some games I'll come back to comment the results. I'm not fan of playing extremely focused decks, so I hope I get some interesting conclusions.

[sparrowhawk]

What conclusion did you guys come to on splashes?

 

I'm drawn to Crane for Above Question to protect voltrons and Admit Defeat for Prodigy (also tempted by Duellist Training since the ancestral attachments recur to buff your hand-size, but think I'd prefer 3x AQ and AD)

 

However, I also like the idea of Unicorn for Spyglass (because it's Spyglass) and Mount since there are plenty of Dragon abilities that work even if your character is bowed (and you can double trigger with Way of the Dragon, though Dragon + Mount may be a risky investment without the AQ from Crane), plus Mount combos nicely with Prodigy too. Throw in a single Captive Audience with the remaining 3 influence (maybe stick Fortified Position under your stronghold).

 

Thoughts?

 

Very happy to see you here, Varun! The Conquest Reunion continues...

 

I believe the answer is based on your local meta.

 

Political control decks? Crane - 3x Above Question and 3x Admit Defeat

 

Military aggro decks? Crab - 3x Reprieve and 3x Mountain Does Not Fall

 

I don't feel Unicorn makes the shortlist because Favourable Ground can be supported in low density Dragon.

 

 

But it's a brave person who claims they have already solved a Clan! Early days, early days.

[GKZhukov]

 

I don't feel Unicorn makes the shortlist because Favourable Ground can be supported in low density Dragon.

 

Yeah, the existence of favourable ground is part of what made me put together Crane instead of Unicorn after I posted

[Botais]

So, how about them new Seeker and Keeper cards?

 

That Seeker card would definitely give Seeker of Enlightenment (how fitting) a significant boost in utility. You can be much more free with spending Fate to Rings and with the increased Monk support (going by High Kick) full Monk decks might become a quite viable thing.

 

The Keeper card would quite possibly open up play potential for 2-cost characters beyond a Crane (or to a lesser degree Crab) splash, as you would not be quite as reliant on Above Question and Reprieve to keep those unfortunate Assassinations away, but it does not really help against those launched while your Niten Adepts are still at home, so that makes it tricky.

 

For my purposes I would almost prefer the Seeker however, staying with a Crane splash and getting more economic control.

 

Other random thoughts:

• Keeper for Lion's Guard Duty sounds pretty good. Great for enabling Niten Master to go full ham even without a convenient POL conflict and Court Games.
• Keeper for Talisman of the Sun also sounds nice, ensuring our Restoration of Balance triggers at the best possible times. Definite synergy with the upcoming Kitsuki Yaruma

What does everyone else think about new Role-related splashes?

[Hakkor]

Today the Voltron Dragon deck worked better than expected. Both wins versus Lion and Unicorn, yet very close ones. The only real control card was Mirumoto's Fury, but Raitsugu and the Kitsuki investigator provided all the surgical control needed. Reprieve was such a valued card I'll make a 3x. It gives the final solution for a character with 2 restricted attachments and the Favor, making your economy much better.

 

Keeping my bids around 3, I wasn't concerned about honor loss nor did even care about opponents honor. I played my game, abusing the Sworsmith with a way of the dragon (put an early reprieve on him, in case of an assasinate). By turn 3 in both games, I had 3 characters heavily attached (most of them cost 3+) and ended up snowballing. At certain point, my opponent's characters where wiped out or coud not defend and destroyed the third province and the capital in a row.

 

Still, feels a little weak against instant removal, as I had no tools to honor my characters in return to Court Games or for Shame. Bowing effect were a leeser concern, as my opponent had to waste resources for a province break, but would find himself with the same problem (or even a bigger one) next turn. I'll keep practicing, but my conclusion is that a deck needs some contention for key conflicts, and 3 Mirumoto's Fury are not enough (maybe 9-10 cards out of 40 is a nice number for counter/control cards, regarding the decks needs a minimum of 20+ attachment to max the swordsmith and daymios favor).

 

 

 

The seeker/keepr cards are quite focused on each deck build. The seeker Dragon will go heavy on monks, which are self efficient and rely less on attachments, having more space for other control cards. The keeper character is clearly meant for the bushi deck, heavy on attachments and weapons, which protects your voltrons and releases you from splashing Dragon for Above Question. Even though it only works during a conflict, most cards only work during a conflict so it's a matter of bearing in mind Way of the Crab and Noble Sacrifice (if you use on cost 3+ characters, you don't have to worry about Assasinates).

 

At least, those are my thoughts.

 

What does everyone else think about new Role-related splashes?

[elrodogg]

If one is dipping to crab... I strongly suggest Mountain does not fall.  If you opponent is first player, this card is amazing, otherwise its simply good.  Play it after committing a Voltron on defense, so you can then attack back with the same monster.  Mountain does not fall x3 and reprieve x3 both work.  

 

New Northern Wall Sensei should help out significantly with helping stop cards from attacking the Voltrons.