111 replies to this topic

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

Hello guys..
Do you have any thoughts on:
Kitsuki Yaruma
Agasha Sumiko
High Kick
Jade Masterpiece
How would you recommend using them in Dragon deckbuilds?

Also, any thoughts on going Lion splash? Is Kamayari viable right now?
Lastly, aside from the obvious Spyglass/Iuchi Wayfinder if going Unicorn splash, what other conflict cards can we use splashing Unicorn?

Thank you so much!

[sparrowhawk]

Let's see how wrong I am...

Yaruma - you need to build around him and I don't think the pool has got there yet for him to be optimal, plus Courtier not supported in Dragon (Investigator is not enough to add For Shame). A card with both an enters play and leaves play effect always has a bright future. Currently his spot is now better taken by...

Agasha Sumiko - the real deal, takes 4 slots with Imperial Palace, possibly the 2nd best card Dragon have got in the cycle (after Feast or Famine) and while she minimises Court Games solo attack pain, she needs answers for Mirumoto's Fury (Finger, Above Question, Ready for Battle etc).

There is a parallel Monk build that is slowly being assembled. The strongest piece so far is Centipede Tattoo in my opinion. Anyway, it's a trait based Monk build with "Fate on Rings" manipulation (thus Ascetic Visionary, Togashi Initiate, Seeker of Enlightenment) with cross-over into Bushi (Enlightened Warrior) and Courtier (Kitsuki Investigator). It would also play the Kihos. I can imagine a near future build once we get more monks where High Kick and Jade Masterpiece would be played - latter definitely the more interesting card with a future. The monk build has natural affinity with Phoenix for Shrine Maiden (once all 5 Kihos are assembed) plus spells like Against The Waves (ready greatest value in Voltron). Anyway, this is a roundabout way of saying that like all LCGs, some themes are still being developed and the 2 cards are made for that future build.

2 cost attachments are probably best played in Dragon because of redundancy of Let Go targets (and attachment removal currently on the wane for more proactive options). But I just don't think much of Kayamari because opponent doesn't engage with that character so works once (also Niten Master wants it outside conflict) then deterrent. Sashimono augments what Dragon does more and that's not played. Lion is a very viable splash due to Ready for Battle (Dragon hates bow), Ageless Crone (low on events), Guidance of Ancestors and Honoured Blade (cheaper Weapon for Niten Master) all as 1 influence options but I would probably go 3 Ready, 3 Crone and risk 2 Sashimono for surfing the meta move away from "dull" Let Go, protected by attachment redundancy.

But the only unrestricted Weapon Pathfinder's Blade that can protect you from blow outs like Feast or Famine and Frostbitten Crossing, as well as synergy of Reprieve (prolong Tower life and pre-conflict on fated up Niten Adept vs Assassination) makes Crab the clear front runner. Last 4 influence spent as you like - 2 Hiruma Skirmishers, 1 Watch Commander or 1 The Mountain Does Not Fall all have merits.

In Unicorn splash, you only have 10 influence so the key Ready attraction of Gaijin Customs could only be supported by a package like...

3x Gaijin Customs (made for Unicorn splash)
3x Favoured Mount (they stick for Customs, Enigmatic, Raitsuga)
1x Spyglass (only Sumiko and Indomitable Will multi-conflict outside of a Monk build)
2x Iuchi Wayfinder (11 for Cloud the Mind)

I feel you are better leveraging your balanced stats with 3x Captive Audience, 1x Favoured Mount, like Rally the Cause is best in Dragon.

But I think Dragon needs a Keeper role and the Monk build to be sufficiently developed for effective Unicorn splash in known pool.

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

Thank you for your answer..

I agree with Yaruma.. His ability is not optimal "yet".. We'll see in the future.. He can easily be played around and your opponent will easily stay away from the province you just flipped down.. And yeah having 2 Courtiers in Dragon (3 if you add Otomo Courtier) is really not enough not to mention on of em is unique..

As for Sumiko, she is a beast.. Though right now im really pushing Dragon/Crab build because of the aforementioned Pathfinder's Blade, she really does need something to protect her from bowing outside of Above Question.. So yeah, Fingers of Jade is really a good choice for her.. I had one game where she just participated in every single conflict in a single round (Indomitable Will, Favored Grounds)..

Agree with the brewing Monk build and im really excited to see the Mantra of each element right now.. Mantra of Water looks promising and Mantra of Fire ensures your monk stays.. High Kick and Jade Masterpiece along with the upcoming Written in the Stars and Stone of Sorrows will make fate manipulation a lot more viable.. Although I did tried using High Kick and Visionary once, its still not there yet..

I tried splashing Lion and using Kamayari and its very predictable.. Your opponent will opt not to act with his/her character and will just try to outgun you with skill pumps and attachments.. Althought im not dismissing the great possibility of Lion splash especially with the upcoming Legion of One..

Unicorn splash is not there yet.. I tried Gaijin Customs and its a dead card if you dont find an Iuchi Wayfinder or Spyglass.. and unlike Ready for Battle, you actually need 2 cards just to make things work..

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

By the way, I would like to ask if its possible for us to use Censure?

I was thinking that since we primarily use attachments and not much events on our conflict deck, why not use Censure to cancel whatever surprises your opponent has for you (Display of Power, Calling in Favors, Blackmail etc.).

And since Sumiko is a beast, do you guys consider adding Imperial Palace in our dynasty so we can ensure we have high possibility to get Imperial Favor?

[Botais]

By the way, I would like to ask if its possible for us to use Censure?

I was thinking that since we primarily use attachments and not much events on our conflict deck, why not use Censure to cancel whatever surprises your opponent has for you (Display of Power, Calling in Favors, Blackmail etc.).

And since Sumiko is a beast, do you guys consider adding Imperial Palace in our dynasty so we can ensure we have high possibility to get Imperial Favor?

 

In any deck I have that includes Sumiko, I also include 2x Censure. If I pursue the Favor I may do so while getting my full effort's worth. In such a deck the Palace is also a nice sight, but nothing you should feel comfortable relying on.

[GKZhukov]

I put a Palace in all my decks. Don't really see a reason not to (might be different if I ran decks where I had lots of holdings/keepers already, and was more worried about getting character-light flops as a result).

That said, you can't guarantee the favour, especially early in the game. The real test of a deck is can you win against a good player when early luck of the flop/draw goes against you. In those situations you may not have the favour, and drawing into Censures and flopping Sumikos may exacerbate the problem.

I also prefer using Investigator and Policy Debate as a workaround for not having cancels - you don't get the economy swing or same kind of mid-plan disruption of cancelling a costly event, but you still get rid of the problem card (unless multiples), as well as garnering temporary perfect info for your own decisions.

Not saying don't run Censure, but be aware of the downsides, and know that we do have other ways of countering problem cards so it's not our only option.

[Asklepios]

Nice thing about running 1x Palace is that it then gives an easy 3x 13 picks for the rest of the deck!

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

Thank you for all th insights guys..

I was thinking of running 2x Censure in my deck..
Yes, we have the cunning Kitsuki Investigator to rid a card that will potentially cause us problems in games, and we can damn well use the rap battle Policy Debate..
But the presence of Censure in our decks will help us mid to late game to ensure that we can negate a potentially devastating event that would be the difference between victory or defeat..

Imperial Palace is just a one off in decks so I really dont rely on it, but im still trying to experiment on it..

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

Hey guys, how are you?

Do you have any cards you are really waiting for in the last 2 dynasty packs this Imperial Cycle?

Any thoughts on those cards?

Personally, I'm waiting for:
1. Mono no Aware - more fate denials.. Best used with crab splash Reprieve..
2. Legion of One - beast in Voltron with Banzai if going Lion splash..
3. Test of Skill - hyper draw with Raitsugu and Prodigy if going Crane splash tutoring Above Question..
4. The Stone of Sorrows - Sumiko loves this.. fate denial tech deck..
5. Seppun Ishikawa - just fun to play with vanilla hulk..
6. Seal of the Dragon - coz High Kick with Niten Master is just plain awesome..
7. Togashi Mendicant - because Scry in MTG is OP.. and Monks are slowly getting viable..

[Killcrazy]

The Fate denial deck for Dragon is getting increasingly interesting. 

 

Using Mono no Aware, Stone of Sorrows, Goblin Sneak, Feast or Famine, Kazue and Written in the Stars, you can punish your opponent and ensure they have issues retaining a board presence. Combine that with Reprieve and lots of Conflict Chars ensures you can pass sooner than your opponent and build a board while they struggle to get anything going.

 

Very excited to test it once I have all the packs. Let me think how the deck would be built and I'll share it soon. 

[Killcrazy]

Here's my tentative list, without any playtesting or in-depth research for the Dragon Fate Crunch build:

 

Mountain's Anvil Castle

Seeker of Fire

Manicured Garden Air

Feast or Famine Fire

Restoration of Balance Fire

Shameful Display Void

Rally to the Cause Water

Influence: 8/10, 2 remaining

Dynasty Deck (40)

 Character (34)

3x  Agasha Sumiko

3x  Agasha Swordsmith

2x  Ascetic Visionary

3x  Doomed Shugenja

2x  Enlightened Warrior

3x  Kitsuki Investigator

3x  Mirumoto Raitsugu

3x  Niten Adept

3x  Niten Master

3x  Seeker of Enlightenment

3x  Togashi Initiate

3x  Togashi Yokuni

 Holding (6)

3x  Mountaintop Statuary

2x  Secluded Temple

1x  The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (42)

 Event (15)

2x  Assassination

2x  High Kick

2x  Let Go

2x  Mantra of Fire

3x  Mirumoto's Fury

2x  Mono no Aware

2x  Written in the Stars

 Attachment (20)

2x  Ancestral Daishō

2x  Cloud the Mind

2x  Daimyō's Favor

3x  Fine Katana

2x  Jade Masterpiece

1x  Kitsuki's Method

3x  Pathfinder's Blade ///

3x  Reprieve ///

2x  The Stone of Sorrows

 Character (7)

2x  Stoic Gunsō //

3x  Tattooed Wanderer

2x  Togashi Kazue

 

I say the deck needs some tightening up on the conflict side. Would really like to squeeze in another conflict char and tune the events a bit better. 

 

Initial thoughts are you play from 2 angles. 

1) Fate squeeze, you aim to pass early and deny fate from your opponent. Getting Yokuni, Niten Master or Agasha Sumiko or Ascetic Visionary early lets you build them up well. Secluded Temple is meant to limit their board size. Kazue lets you steal the fate from their chars. Raitsugu rips it off them. Ideally, if they never have more than the 7 starting fate, they'll have issues playing any big guys out and keeping them there. 

2) Monks. Ascetic visionary finally has a job! Seeker of Enlightenment can get pretty big with all the fate on the rings. Time to play High Kicks. I went with only Mantra of Fire because I don't feel the Water ring is a common pick (unless you're facing Phoenix) and Fire universally applicable to your monks and feeds into the lasting board state you're going for. Even better if it hits Yokuni or Niten Master with a Tattoed Wanderer on him. 

 

Additional thoughts:

• Enlightened Warrior also stays on the board longer as your opponent has less choice on choosing a ring with no fate on it. 
• Your ideal target for Stone of Sorrows is Niten Master or Agasha Sumiko. If not, just have Enlightened Warrior sit back and hold it and grab the Favor at the same time. 
• Crab splash feeds into the lasting board state strategy and Niten Master synergy thanks to Reprieve and Pathfinder's Blade
• I was tempted by Meditations but figured the blowout from Restoration is just more impactful. It's also more win more once your opponent is struggling to fate out their guys

It does feel a little janky currently. Will have to test it out once pack 6 is out. Any feedback?

[Quadratus]

I still feel that that Water ring is underused and undervalued. When used in concurrence with Dragon's natural fate denial mechanics, it can play an easy hard control against nearly every faction but Unicorn. 

 

For a while I was on the Dragon-Crane Duelists kick, but I'm thinking of switching back to Crab with the advent of Pathfinder's Blade and Hiruma Skirmisher. 

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

@Killcrazy

For now, I know monks are slowly coming out of their shell.. But most of the time, they're mainly for support..
Our dragon bushi are much more viable right now so try to stick with them for now..
The time of monks is slowly getting in the picture, for now we have to wait until more badass monks come out..

Fate denial is a mechanic that can be used by any clan but it will be mostly effective in dragon..
Though you should not push it so much that you may lose consistency in your deck..
I would love to put some mild fate denial tech in my deck but still remain my deck consistency..
Remember, Dragon for now, can only win by destroying provinces.. Fate denial is just there to give us advantage other clans dont..

Mono no Aware is powerful but costly.. One Censure and its gone.. So I would go with just 1 in my deck..
I would use Policy Debate/Kitsuki Investigator first before using this to ensure your opponent will likely be wiped out by end of round, and one of the two if missing in your deck..
And a well timed Mono no Aware will devastate a lot of decks if used properly..

I'd go with Hiruma Skirmisher instead of Stoic Gunso.. I won a lot of games with unopposed Stronghold attacks because of this and Tattooed Wanderer..

I have not tested Mountaintop Statuary yet.. But I will.. However, for holdings, I would opt to use Favorable Grounds and Imperial Storehouse to give your Voltron enough support..
I also use Imperial Palace to prepare for future Sumiko onslaught in dynasty.. but Secluded Outpost is a highly viable option if your having problems with swarm decks.. Although one well timed Mono no Aware will usually solve the issue..

Try to stick with 40/40 deck count to improve consistency with your draws.. You cant always risk bidding high and losing honor fast.. Against lion, scorpion, crane and in some phoenix decks, losing honor will be your huge problem..

Once I get all the packs and playtested further, I will post my deck..

[Kingsley]

I've updated my previous Dragon/Crab list on FiveRingsDB with cards from the rest of the cycle - check it out! (Strategy guide and changelog included)

 

https://fiveringsdb....1ccf16fca4/view

[Asklepios]

So, let's talk Dragon Monks.

 

Anyone got any interesting builds to share?

 

Been playing round with this deck, off-role, so not tourney legal:

 

https://fiveringsdb....1ccf16fca4/view

 

It's in no way top tier, and yes I know, its insane to play Dragon without Let Go, but there it is.

[Asklepios]

Well, played 2 games of it last night against Caldera. One game where it collapsed horrifically, where I had dozens of cards in hand and could not find a use for any of them (turns out Mantra of Water is pretty terrible, as Water is normally only engaged in as a first conflict to clear the way for following conflicts, and that Centipede Tattoo has serious limitations, like if you lose water ring. It's like Indomitable Will but cheaper and worse).

The second game was a long drawn out affair against Unicorn, where I finally won by reaching 25 honour (after a risky Yurt move to save my opponent from dishonour, and some mild 2am misjudgement having my opponent honour his own guy instead of dishonouring mine on fire). That game the deck got more of a fair run, but I generally found that:

 

1) There is never enough fate

2) Test of Skill so isn't worth it for this deck. Hell, the hypergeometric calculator could have told me that.

3) The best cards are the ones that had nothing to do with the theme. Let Go, Fury, Niten Adept.

4) High Kick is actually really good, so fair enough to that.

5) Jade Masterpiece is amazing, Stone of Sorrows isn't. Mantra of Fire + Jade Masterpiece is a nice trap to lay for the unwary.

6) Not sure if Massing at Twilight is a liability or not. It makes honoured/dishonoured status twice as important though.

7) Niten Master lacks weapons in this build

8) There is never enough fate.

 

Compare that to my current #1 deck, which is Crab Voltron, where there was always enough fate and cards, and the characters were more threatening, and the tricks were better....

 

Yeah, Dragon Monk is pretty terrible. Fun in a way, but terrible. Will look again in a few packs time. On the other hand, 3x High Kick and a splash of monks is probably worth it in a standard Dragon / Pathfinder build. 

[sparrowhawk]

Heh heh. Thanks for suffering the game pain to confirm what we all suspected.

FWIW, this was my Dragon Monks "let's test the jank that I never play" build.


"Drunken Monkey"
Dragon.Phoenix.6

Mountain's Anvil Castle
Seeker of Fire
Manicured Garden Air
Entrenched Position Earth
Feast or Famine Fire
Restoration of Balance Fire
Shameful Display Void
Influence: 10/10

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (36)
3x Agasha Swordsmith
3x Ascetic Visionary
3x Doomed Shugenja
3x Enlightened Warrior
3x Itinerant Philosopher
3x Kitsuki Investigator
3x Niten Adept
3x Seeker Initiate
3x Seeker of Enlightenment
3x Togashi Initiate
3x Togashi Mendicant
3x Togashi Yokuni

Holdings (4)
3x Mountaintop Statuary
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (18)
3x Against the Waves ///
3x High Kick
3x Let Go
3x Mantra of Fire
3x Mantra of Water
3x Mirumoto's Fury

Attachments (15)
3x Centipede Tattoo
3x Cloud the Mind
2x Embrace the Void ////
3x Fine Katana
1x Jade Masterpiece
3x Ornate Fan

Characters (7)
3x Shrine Maiden ///
3x Tattooed Wanderer
1x Togashi Kazue


(Stone of Sorrows and Written in the Stars is for a future Dragon main/splash choke build, probably with Waning Hostilities and Tattered Missive on the standing Courtier with Stone.)

Needless to say, with games so rare due to real life (last of the holiday season guests gone, life back to normal!), I don't have the luxury to test jank when I've got a long list of serious decks to play still.

This does bring up 2 issues:

The sheer efficiency of neutral staple events Banzai, Court Games, Policy Debate and 1+ Assassination means not enough deck slots for competitive theme decks. Charge too.

The long gap because of the misguided 6 in 6 weeks "let's bring forward release schedule to reach year end target revenue for Asmodee" (or whatever the reason was) only results in these "silly season" jank build lists by bored gamers. Meanwhile none of us had time to appreciate all 20 designs in 1 week with that value-destructing pace. We pay the price now in this product drought hangover.

"And Pharoah dreamed of 7 fat cows followed by 7 lean cows" - the Feast or Famine meta is so appropriate.

[Asklepios]

Oh, forgot to mention that Seeker Initiate is actually really good for Monk decks. Helps fetch event cards that otherwise aren't easy to search for, and is a cheap monk.

[estyles]

Asklepios, like you I was determined to try the Dragon Monk jank build.  If only because it's finally a combo deck that's possible in this game, and I find "throw in all the good cards" to be a really boring deckbuilding style.  And because if I squinted my eyes just right, I was able to convince myself it might be viable...

 

But yeah, it's definitely not there yet.  I had the opposite impression of Centipede Tattoo from you.  Yes, it has limitations, but it's a free ready that can potentially be used multiple times per turn - of course it has limitations.  One of the nice things about it is that it encourages your opponent not to try too hard to win a conflict.  It puts them in a lose-lose situation.  It would be better if there were more decent Monk characters, but that's true of pretty much this whole deck.

 

1) There is never enough fate

2) Test of Skill so isn't worth it for this deck. Hell, the hypergeometric calculator could have told me that.

3) The best cards are the ones that had nothing to do with the theme. Let Go, Fury, Niten Adept.

4) High Kick is actually really good, so fair enough to that.

5) Jade Masterpiece is amazing, Stone of Sorrows isn't. Mantra of Fire + Jade Masterpiece is a nice trap to lay for the unwary.

6) Not sure if Massing at Twilight is a liability or not. It makes honoured/dishonoured status twice as important though.

7) Niten Master lacks weapons in this build

8) There is never enough fate.

 

1 & 8) I concur.

2) Eww...  you went Crane splash for your Monk deck?  That's weird.  I stuck with good old Crab. 

3) For me, the best cards were the ones that let me Voltron up and protect Yokuni.  Which, my monk jank deck actually ended up being better at than a regular Dragon deck, so there's that...  More on that later.

4) I never ended up having a good chance to use High Kick, but I see the value.

5) Yes, Jade Masterpiece is better than I gave it credit for.  Stone of Sorrows, I had trouble getting to work.  

6) Yeah, I used Pilgrimage.

7) That's why I cut him.  Not because he's not good, but I just felt this wasn't the right deck for him.  However, when I modify it to be a little less jank, he will probably go back in along with his weapons.

 

Some things I found

 

- Enlightened Warrior worked better than I expected.   Especially if Yokuni copies him - it basically prevents your opponent from attacking this round.  Which can be a problem if you can't get Fate on Yokuni some other way...  Jade Masterpiece, especially combined with Enlightened Warrior, can easily manipulate your opponent's ring choice, which makes Mantra of Fire and Water better.  Enough that I'm considering adding the Dragon Seal and more Mantras.

 

- I removed a lot of the Dragon staples to include more monk jank, and missed the staples while mostly not having good chances to play the monk cards.  Gonna have to reverse that.

 

- Seeker of Enlightenment is, of course, amazing in this deck.  Of course, I find him well above the curve in a standard Dragon deck, but I've heard that a lot of people don't play him.  I find that after turn 1, he is usually a 4/4 for 2, or better.  In this deck, he can be a 7/7 monster.

 

- Itinerant Philosopher sucks.  I mean, if you can use his ability, it's probably pretty good, but I basically just left him in province and if I didn't get the favor I discarded him at the end of the turn.  If Dragon ever gets the 1 cost 0/0/2 Monk that doesn't lose Fate or get discarded during Fate phase while it's unbowed (i.e. fantasy card that seems in character for them and continues the Steadfast Samurai/Doji Shizue cycle), he'll be much better.  Togashi Mendicant doesn't seem very good either.  Seeker Initiate, I'm still torn on.

 

- One Finger of Jade and a Reprieve still isn't enough protection against Scorpion.  Scorpion really punishes going tall.  So annoying.

 

- Instead of Stone of Sorrows, I think I am going to use Waning Hostilities.

[Asklepios]

Oh yes, Seeker of Enlightenment is pretty cool. I had him running at 6/6 for a couple of conflicts, and he was pretty instrumental to me taking the game I won.

 

I'm going to keep messing with this jank on jigoku, but I won't waste my RL face to face games on this one any longer...