111 replies to this topic

[sparrowhawk]

Tadakatsu applies to both players, right?

So defending (your choice) then attacking in Water to ready the defender doesn't work?

Or being forced to attack in Water conflict 1 when opponent has Fate on all characters? Dragon has no cards like Artisan or Benten to use the ring effect on.

Using him as a Charge defender (more unit efficient use of Charge) is mostly downside text?

I think he'll also create a valve on Ring Fate as both players deny the 5th Ring accumulating Fate. Now Jade Masterpiece will bypass this but Dragon traditionally are Fate starved and prefer both players collecting Fate rather than neither. I suspect so, anyway.

And Investigator is best used first action in defence? But he promotes usage in attack.



Against Phoenix Spells, I think he's net good, despite being forced to go Fire for Display of Power or Water for Clarity of Purpose with an Ishika in play (or the ring chosen by a Master of GT). The Water Spells build also doesn't particularly care about who wins the Water ring beyond Keeper, as long as it's chosen.

But against Phoenix Glory, with Mori Seido, Sempuko Seido and Haughty Magistrate, he's a liability. He does weaken Kaede (opponent attacks in Void) but aids Tsukune (more likely to pass) and that build is more likely to play Charge + Fuschico / Tsukune.


He'd be a sick card if he wasn't symmetrical. But to me, with Niten Master as vulnerable to Twist as Spiritcaller or any other non-unique keystone, it's hard to see much Dragon upside in the pack. Its incremental benefit for Dragon feels less than many other Clans (though not as bad as poor Crane, stuffed by Clarity).


Is he the best non-Phoenix card in the pack? He's definitely the most interesting! But I think I would say Moto Nergui (x3 all Unicorn) and Kami Unleashed (Seeker splash Lion Legion, Seeker builds with 3x Favourable) are better cards. So though I really like the symmetrical design (both him and Amoro, Ishika is more match-up dependent), as can be seen by my numerous symmetrical designs in the Card Designs thread, I'm actually very cautious playing symmetrical cards unless in decks that heavily favour its effect.

For any MtG players, there's a key difference between playing Wrath of God / Armageddon and Balance. Some symmetrical designs can be leveraged far easier than others (Ishika is one) and Tadakatsu feels too symmetrical.

Happy to be proved wrong, Ignithas! I'm even happier to see some activity on this forum. I have provocatively ratcheted up the opinion-meter, even if it means I will lose face and eat humble pie (nothing can be as wrong as not short-listing Kith!).

[NeonWolf]

@sparrowhawk

 

I appreciate the feedback, but as a casual card gamer at best, most of what you've said is beyond my level of comprehension. I like the setting and picked dragon for various reasons, but am not a competitive card game player by any means.  I was mostly trying to decide if I should bother buying the DotV pack now or wait until there is some actual useful interactions that it contributes to.

 

I have played a few of FFG's LCG's and always feel as though there are tools (cards) that I should have that are missing due to the release cycle that they use.  I definitely prefer theme decks and have a hard time playing decks that aren't build around a central theme.

 

I would love for a Dragon monk deck to work but I feel like it will be years before there is a large enough card pool to make that type of theme work the way it should in my head.  Probably a problem with my head, admittedly, but still.

[Ignithas]

1. If you decide to charge Tadakatsu, you probably should do it in offense. The funny thing about Investigator is that he is theoretically better in defense, because you can use his ability imediatly to get rid of the best card and you often get back your fate afterwards. But your oponent usually plays around it, which makes it sometimes better to use him as the attacker.

 

2. The good thing for Dragon in this pack is that Dragon and Scorpion are probably the two best clans to tackle the Phoenix.deck meta. Phoenix can generate an insane amount of value with Chargebird, Kharmic+Embrace, Tsukune, Kanjo+Favor,  Inquisitive Ishika+1 cost spells and the new SH+Against the Waves/Clarity. Dragon can end the game before Phoenix reaches it critical mass and take over the game. Dragon is also pretty good against Tadaka, KM and their new Fire Province.

 

3. After some testing I think that Kami Unleashed is overrated and Moto Nergui is currently only 3x, because Unicorn Dynasty is really weak atm.

 

4. It's difficult to compare cards to Balance, because Balance is broken. Tadakatsu is good in the standard Dragon deck, because it somewhat fills a hole. Tadakatsu however becomes pretty insane in a Monk deck with Mantras etc.

[Stefan2581]

*stick*

[Grimbo]

So no posts post restricted list?

Curious if the pathfinder blade was the keep? Over charge and M. Fury?

[Asklepios]

Dragon got hit hard. Still, I'd say Fury remains strong enough to be the keep of choice in most decks.

 

I quite like Crane splash. Will post my build later.

[sparrowhawk]

Grimbo, you forgot Policy Debate as Dragon are so balanced and their 'hold pumps both skills during Military conflicts.

It's a difficult decision in my eyes. My current Dragon build (splash influenced by Kostas' build at Expo but details different) chooses Policy Debate.


"Duel with Sword & Wits"
Dragon.Crane
Mid Range Voltron

Mountain's Anvil Castle
Seeker of Fire
Manicured Garden Air
Public Forum Earth
Feast or Famine Fire
Restoration of Balance Fire
Pilgrimage Void
Influence: 10/10

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (33)
3x Agasha Sumiko
3x Agasha Swordsmith
3x Doomed Shugenja
3x Kitsuki Investigator
3x Kitsuki Yaruma
3x Mirumoto Raitsugu
3x Miya Satoshi
3x Niten Adept
3x Niten Master
3x Togashi Initiate
3x Togashi Yokuni

Holdings (7)
3x Favorable Ground
3x Imperial Storehouse
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (17)
3x Banzai!
2x Censure
3x Court Games
3x For Shame!
3x Let Go
3x Policy Debate

Attachments (17)
3x Ancestral Daishō
3x Duelist Training ///
3x Fine Katana
3x Finger of Jade
2x Kakita Blade ////
3x Ornate Fan

Characters (6)
3x Steward of Law ///
3x Tattooed Wanderer


A few points:

Restoration of Balance or Pilgrimage in the hold depending on match-up and format (e.g. friendly untimed game => Pilgrimage in hold, vs Crane or Scorpion who stifle tempo until they find Restoration => put it in the hold and assume it's 4th province as yet unexplored with no incentive to explore due to playing Debate prior).

Very high end dynasty curve (6x1, 6x2, 6x3, 9x4, 6x5) supported by 6x1 conflict but many characters are situational (e.g. Sumiko, reject Yokuni vs Phoenix if no Jade etc). Mulligan decision can be key as is what you discard from provinces. 5x3 uniques help resilience.

0 cost events - lose no tempo if cancelled. This build is for friendly matches hence no Assassination but in a format with shared deck lists, switch 1 Censure => Assassination just to give them the worry. Yet in reality, due to Restoration reducing their bids, a Dragon that Assassinates will often be Dishonoured.

12 Courtiers inc. 3 Stewards => 3 For Shame

Pilgrimage because Stewards don't play nice with Shameful Display and lack of characters to defend. Yaruma helps with Public Forum and Restoration.

17 Attachments for Swordsmith, all positive for Stronghold, 8 weapons for Niten Master and Duelist Training. Can swap 2 Censures for 2 Cloud the Mind (9 shugenja) but Jade can be used on opponents too as disruption of telegraphed play if opposing build is more buffing and ready than targeting you (can also be discarded to pay Duelist Training bids). No Jade Masterpiece as it's situational economy transfer but if needed, remove 1 Finger for it.


So I'm not really a Dragon player. Last time I played them, I soon found myself 3-1 down vs. Unicorn and even though I won in the end, it felt so ... fragile.

However my new-found respect for Finger of Jade (against all triggers, Feast or Famine is key) has made me look at Dragon again.

Flawed? Better options in Crane? Mirumoto Prodigy + Admit Defeat + Indomitable Will? Key 0 cost Pillow Book + attachments? Above Question? Curry Favour? Yes, Crane splash is very versatile (why I took issue with comment about splashing Crane in a podcast) and, with Dragon honour starved, I have instead opted for Kakita Blade jank!

[Asklepios]

Well, you've saved me a post, as my Dragon/crane is pretty similar. Same influence spends, same restricted.

[Asklepios]

Just played a game today with a boringly conventional Scorpion deck against a seemingly ordinary Dragon/crane deck that happily underplayed the first two turns with no more than 1-2 fate spend total, then on Turn 3 dropped out Yokuni with Above Question and Duelist Training and (eventually) Way of the Dragon. Despite Cloud the Mind slowing him and his accompanying Kitsuki Investigator a little, and despite my lucky mountain hit taking out Let Go, I still couldn't get out from under the sheer pressure of a pair of 5+ attachment voltrons that were immune to events and had 3-5 fate on them each.

 

Illustrious Plaigirist was the only reason I survived as long as I did, with a copied Mirumoto's Fury stopping one break (as he handily bypasses Above Question), and a copied Let Go taking Above Question off Yokuni (though a Finger of Jade staying in there made it impractical for me to use AFWTD).

 

Really nice to see Dragon played in such an unusual way - outside of Scorpion I can't think of many games I've played where I hold back 6 fate for the first 2 turns.

 

Anyway, having seen it in action, I'm now going to tweak my Dragon/Crane to make way for more Above Questions.

[DaigotsuRyuzen]

Hello Dragon clanmates!

I hope y'all doing well..

 

Now that the full Elemental cycle has been released, do you have any cards you really think would benefit Dragon clan?

 

For me, I would consider:

1. Spreading the Darkness - with Finger of Jade, your Voltron is practically unstoppable in our usual Crab splash. The 2 honor loss hurts, but if you can manage to pull this off towards the last battle, its good game..

2. Hawk Tattoo - the harpoon tech has a lot of potential.. But the move in it gives can save battles.

3. Heroic Resolve - now you can get the Imperial favor much easier since Censure is becoming a staple in Dragon decks. Oh, and if you win a defensive conflict, you can attack twice with that same character.

4. Volcanic Troll - pure beatsticks! No dishonor can stop it..

5. Game of Sadane - another duel tool to abuse especially if going Crane splash.

6. Togashi Mitsu - we now have 3 champions in this clan.. This monk champ is awesome in every way, now all we need is powerful kihos and tattoos..

7. Void Fist - oh, did I just mention we need a powerful kiho? Here it is.. Shut down biggest threat One Punch Man style..

 

Any ideas you can share is greatly appreciated.

[sparrowhawk]

So on another thread, I was told the Monks build is incredibly powerful - but is it? Returning to the game after a break, it feels a bit gimmicky. Yes, I do like the D&D "flurry of blows" theme and it's a nice alternative approach to standard Dragon Voltron. But the issue is Dragon only have a single stronghold and it's designed for the Voltron build (until we get more Tattoos). If Dragon had a stronghold with a passive "whenever you draw exactly 1 card, you may draw 2 cards then discard 1", that would be one that obviously works with Monks without being explicitly stated (like the Spells trait in Kyuden Isawa). But Dragon don't have this so I can't take Monks seriously. Am I wrong to treat Monks as currently still a sub-optimal Dragon build?

Here is an example. Firstly, this is my newly updated standard Dragon build.


"No Favours"
Dragon.Crab
Voltron

Mountain's Anvil Castle
Seeker of Fire
Manicured Garden Air
Entrenched Position Earth
Feast or Famine Fire
Restoration of Balance Fire
Pilgrimage Void
Influence: 10/10

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (33)
3x Agasha Swordsmith
3x Doomed Shugenja
3x Kitsuki Investigator
3x Master Alchemist
3x Mirumoto Raitsugu
3x Miya Mystic
3x Niten Adept
3x Niten Master
3x Togashi Initiate
3x Togashi Yokuni
3x Volcanic Troll

Holdings (7)
3x Favorable Ground
3x Imperial Storehouse
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (9)
3x Banzai!
3x Court Games
3x Let Go

Attachments (25)
3x Ancestral Daishō
3x Cloud the Mind
3x Fine Katana
3x Finger of Jade
3x Hawk Tattoo
1x Jade Masterpiece
3x Ornate Fan
3x Pathfinder's Blade ///
3x Reprieve ///

Characters (6)
2x Hiruma Skirmisher ////
3x Tattooed Wanderer
1x Togashi Kazue


Yes, no Sumiko who lost her lustre when Charge was restricted and now totally tarnished in a Hawk meta. Opponents should assume you value Favour and over-commit to deprive you of it. Plus the curve is far less painful in what is a notoriously hungry build. And yes, I'm not too proud to play a 3 cost 5/5/0 conflict 1 beat-stick that forces opponent to open fire ring in conflict 1 (which really hurts Phoenix).

And now to make a few changes; not wholesale changes because you don't want to throw the baby with bathwater. Building a deck where every card either has "monk", "kiho" or "tattoo" would be silly! Where would be the skill in deck-building if all you have to do is filter on 3 traits? Seems to me that Monks can be played as a sub-theme in the strong shell of the above deck. After all, do people really commit to Tadakatsu + Mantras?

-1 Manicured Garden => +1 Sacred Sanctuary
-3 Master Alchemist => +3 Ascetic Visionary
-3 Togashi Yokuni => +3 Togashi Mitsu
-3 Miya Mystic => +3 Togashi Mendicant
-3 Cloud the Mind => +3 Centipede Tattoo
-3 Ancestral Daisho => +3 Void Fist
-3 Banzai! => +3 Hurricane Punch
-3 Finger of Jade => +3 Ancient Master
-3 Ornate Fan => +3 Seal of the Dragon
-2 Hiruma Skirmisher => +2 Jade Tetsubo

27 card changes out of 85 is pretty significant but it's still the same recognisable Dragon Good Stuff shell.


"Crab shell with a side order of Monk fish"
Dragon.Crab
Tempo

Mountain's Anvil Castle
Seeker of Fire
Sacred Sanctuary Air
Entrenched Position Earth
Feast or Famine Fire
Restoration of Balance Fire
Pilgrimage Void
Influence: 10/10

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (33)
3x Agasha Swordsmith
3x Ascetic Visionary
3x Doomed Shugenja
3x Kitsuki Investigator
3x Mirumoto Raitsugu
3x Niten Adept
3x Niten Master
3x Togashi Initiate
3x Togashi Mendicant
3x Togashi Mitsu
3x Volcanic Troll

Holdings (7)
3x Favorable Ground
3x Imperial Storehouse
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (12)
3x Court Games
3x Hurricane Punch
3x Let Go
3x Void Fist

Attachments (21)
3x Centipede Tattoo
3x Fine Katana
3x Hawk Tattoo
1x Jade Masterpiece
2x Jade Tetsubō ////
3x Pathfinder's Blade ///
3x Reprieve ///
3x Seal of the Dragon

Characters (7)
3x Ancient Master
3x Tattooed Wanderer
1x Togashi Kazue


But looking at the 2 lists, which would I prefer to play? The former of course. The latter is a nice novelty but it doesn't feel as strong. Because we don't have the right stronghold for Monks yet. We are stuck with standard Voltron as optimum build until we get another Dragon stronghold.

Maybe there is an "all-in" Monks build (say Dragon.Phoenix with 2x Shrine Maiden, 2x Path of Man) which eschews all these strong Dragon and neutral cards yet still functions really strongly due to its synergies. But it reminds me of when I went "all-in" with spells & shugenja with Kyuden Isawa, made a fool of myself trying out Fire Tensai Initiate in the mistaken belief that they would not release cards in a LCG unless they worked in some capacity. Well, the Crane card "Insult to Injury" proved to me that you can never underestimate design as they continue to plumb the depths of utter unplayability in a LCG format


If someone has a great Monks build and willing to share, please do so here. I saw a Katana of Fire Shugenja/Monk build on 5RDB but it was pure 24 carat jank - I mean that in the nicest way in that all the card relationships were cute etc but sadly in card games, brutal simplicity often works best. The hobby would be so dull without jank builds. But I am mystified how the Monks build can be better than a more standard build that does not use Monk cards.

Please do prove me wrong by posting a mouthwatering Monks build that I can copy and take out for a spin (kick)...

[Killcrazy]

For utter unplayability, see Specialized Defences in Crab.

 

I've faced a great monk deck once, I don't see it as strong as the Dragon/Crab deck but it was cool using Phoenix splash. Had a cool loop set up using Jurojin's Curse and Being and Becoming on Mitsu, combined with some decent stand tech. It's a bit janky but looked hella fun.

 

However, the best Dragon decks are just running Monk tech - Seal of the Dragon and Void Fist for some extra hitting power. It makes their decks even more obnoxious than it currently is.