Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Phoenix Strategy

legend of the Five Rings phoenix L5R meta deck strategy

  • Please log in to reply
338 replies to this topic

#321
Darthnazrael

Darthnazrael

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Why are we running so much I Can Swim? Scorpion doesn't even run 2, and they're way more prepared to set it up. I'd be surprised if we're running it at all. I'd see something Phoenix/Scorpion on something more like...

 

1 A Fate Worse than Death ///

2 Calling in Favors ////

3 Mark of Shame ///

 

Meanwhile, while it may not be flashy, I think Phoenix SoA is perfectly happy running 3 Let Go/2 Hawk Tattoo, and using the added SoA economy to pump out big bodies at an aggressive pace.



#322
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

A couple of options from the top of my head:

 

3 Mark of Shame ///

3 Maze of Illusion //////

1 Meek informant  /

The Meek informant I'm not sure about, but the mazes power up uona. I'd play this out of the old stronghold, but obviously with spells this works well out of KI too.

 

3 Mark of Shame ///

3 Fiery Madness //////

1 Meek informant /

This is in case that I don't want to run Uona. The madness is a nice defensive tool.

 

3 Mark of Shame ///

2 Calling in Favors ////

1 Sadako ///

I like good conflict characters, especially when I can add glory to them. 

 

I am personally not a fan of AFWTD, because as phoenix, you need your fate for your dynasty more than in other clans, plus if it gets cancelled it is a disaster, and our only countermeasure is censure.



#323
NuFenix

NuFenix

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1261 posts

Tried out my Water themed deck that I mentioned at a high level on the previous page tonight. Two games against Crane, ended up 1-1.

 

Water Focus
by: Nu_Fenix
 
Stronghold: Kyūden Isawa  (Disciples of the Void)
Role: Keeper of Water
 
Dynasty Deck (40)
Character (30)
3   Ethereal Dreamer  (All and Nothing)
3   Naive Student  (Core)
3   Solemn Scholar  (Core)
3   Adept of the Waves  (Core)
3   Asako Tsuki  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)
3   Keeper Initiate  (Core)
3   Miya Mystic  (Core)
3   Prodigy of the Waves  (Into the Forbidden City)
3   Asako Azunami  (The Ebb and Flow)
3   Isawa Tadaka  (Disciples of the Void)
 
Holding (10)
2   Bustling Academy  (All and Nothing)
3   Favorable Ground  (Core)
3   Forgotten Library  (Core)
1   Kanjo District  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)
1   The Imperial Palace  (The Chrysanthemum Throne)
 
Conflict Deck (40)
Attachment (9)
3   Fine Katana  (Core)
3   Ornate Fan  (Core)
3   Cloud the Mind  (Core)
 
Character (6)
3   Tattooed Wanderer  (Core)
3   Feral Ningyo  (Tainted Lands)
 
Event (25)
2   Assassination  (Core)
3   Benten's Touch  (Into the Forbidden City)
3   Censure  (Into the Forbidden City)
3   Court Games  (Core)
3   Let Go  (Core)
3   Supernatural Storm  (Core)
3   Against the Waves  (Core)
3   Clarity of Purpose  (Disciples of the Void)
2   Display of Power  (Core)
 
Province Deck (5)
1   Kuroi Mori  (Core)
1   Manicured Garden  (Core)
1   Meditations on the Tao  (Core)
1   Rally to the Cause  (Core)
1   Upholding Authority  (Tainted Lands)
 
 
Neither game did I see Bustling Academy or Asako Tsuki, which is a shame as I was curious how useful if Academy would be any good, and Tsuki fits the theme of the deck so well!
 
Upholding Authority was never nice for my opponent when they went into it, and started working out what they could play just to prevent them being discarded. As one was Policy Debate, seemed like they were playing it simply out of spite!
 
Going in on Water, coverting their problem character thanks to Adept of the Waves or Tattooed Wanderer, and then being able to bow them thanks to Asako Azunami was very potent.


#324
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

I find that you need to play the Seal of the Phoenix to make the academy consistent, and preferably 9 dynasty scholars (Naive Student, Solemn Scholar and Asako Tsuki). When I run academy, I also run the full playset and shave a forgotten library. It is manageable when you have too many academies, but not so for libraries. You also have about 13 holding-esque cards with those keepers, so you want to maximize your odds at getting a bustling academy so that you can fix a bad flop.

 

Were the 6 attachment hates card fine? Looks like overkill to me, especially since against several decks, all it hits will be fine katanas, fans and cloud the mind.

 

 

I wanted to take the Phoenix + Crab splash deck on the previous page to a local tournament but did not manage to partake. Here is the list. I must say that the idea to run Stoic Gunso works.

 

Go Crab No Sho
by: Severijn

Isawa Mori Seidō  (Core)
Keeper of Water
Fertile Fields  (Core)
Kuroi Mori  (Core)
Meditations on the Tao  (Core)
Rally to the Cause  (Core)
Upholding Authority  (Tainted Lands)


Dynasty Deck (40)
Character (34)
3   Naive Student  (Core)
3   Solemn Scholar  (Core)
3   Asako Diplomat  (Core)
3   Asako Tsuki  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)
3   Keeper Initiate  (Core)
3   Meddling Mediator  (Core)
3   Radiant Orator  (Core)
3   Chikai Order Protector  (The Fires Within)
3   Isawa Atsuko  (Core)
2   Isawa Kaede  (Tears of Amaterasu)
2   Isawa Tadaka  (Disciples of the Void)
3   Fushichō  (Disciples of the Void)

Holding (6)
3   Favorable Ground  (Core)
2   Forgotten Library  (Core)
1   Kanjo District  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)


Conflict Deck (40)
Attachment (10)
2   Fine Katana  (Core)
3   Ornate Fan  (Core)
2   Cloud the Mind  (Core)
3   Reprieve  (Core)

Character (7)
2   Hiruma Skirmisher  (Into the Forbidden City)
2   Stoic Gunsō  (Core)
3   Feral Ningyo  (Tainted Lands)

Event (23)
1   Assassination  (Core)
3   Banzai!  (Core)
2   Benten's Touch  (Into the Forbidden City)
2   Censure  (Into the Forbidden City)
3   Court Games  (Core)
3   For Shame!  (Core)
3   Charge!  (Core)
3   Clarity of Purpose  (Disciples of the Void)
2   Fight On  (The Ebb and Flow)
1   Harmonize  (For Honor and Glory)


Deck Built using https://www.bushibuilder.com

 

Early defense with courtiers and for shame. Charge with Reprieve and Fight on is amazing, but not necessary in order to win. This is a pretty fun deck and I recommend it if you want something else than the dragon splash. Note that I don't have the last two expansions yet. I haven't thought about what I'd change if I had those.



#325
sparrowhawk

sparrowhawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2038 posts
My turn to critique, Severijn! :) I only hope this is taken constructively...

For me, Fight On means playing Shameful Display (which works great with Mori Seido). I'd play Kuroi Mori in the line splash Unicorn with Talisman or in the hold as splash Crane Keeper of Air dishonour with Display of Power and Guardian Kami. Kuroi Mori may indeed be the best stronghold province in a no time limit game but you mention taking it to a tourney and sadly that's a variant game.

I also feel Phoenix have enough native draw (Library, Student, honour economy via self-honour/Mediator) but notoriously Fate-starved so my preference is for Manicured Garden. But that's admittedly very subjective.

From your provinces, your build is long game control rather than short game tempo (Kuroi Mori vs Shameful Display, Fertile Fields vs Manicured Garden, Upholding Authority vs Public Forum). Yet other cards are a mix of tempo (Stoic Gunso) and control (Radiant Orator which hurts Censure, Harmonize etc). In my experience, being "Neither Fish Nor Fowl" often gets you nowhere. Commit to an archetype and rinse every synergy you can as focused as possible to get those synergies in games consistently.

I think our main deviation in build philosophy here is how best to leverage Mori Seido. To me, you only choose Mori Seido over Kyuden because you notice a trend that players (like me) have very few Glory 3+ characters. It always comes with Haughty Magistrate. I'm surprised at its omission. Radiant Orator sadly does not compare (covert is a thing).

On the other hand, your Stoic Gunso is most definitely a nice idea in a high-low build such as yours with so many weenies. Very cute.

Below is my Phoenix.Crab which is a focused Voltron aggro, because Fight On (like all ready effects) encourages Voltron.


"You'll never fight alone" (fight on! fight on!)
Phoenix.Crab
Fast Voltron Aggro

Isawa Mori Seidō
Keeper of Water
Manicured Garden Air
Public Forum Earth
Meditations on the Tao Fire
Shameful Display Void
Rally to the Cause Water
Influence: 13/13

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (33)
3x Adept of the Waves
3x Asako Tsuki
3x Ethereal Dreamer
3x Fushichō
3x Haughty Magistrate
3x Isawa Kaede
3x Isawa Tadaka
3x Keeper Initiate
3x Naive Student
3x Prodigy of the Waves
3x Solemn Scholar

Holdings (7)
3x Favorable Ground
2x Forgotten Library
1x Kanjo District
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (21)
3x Banzai!
3x Benten's Touch
3x Censure
3x Charge!
3x Clarity of Purpose
3x Court Games
3x Fight On ///// /

Attachments (14)
3x Cloud the Mind
3x Fine Katana
2x Magnificent Kimono
3x Ornate Fan
3x Reprieve ///

Characters (5)
3x Feral Ningyo
2x Hiruma Skirmisher ////


I chose Tadaka and Kaede as targets for Fushicho because they are complementary, each better against different Clans. Tadaka stuffs Crane and Scorpion worst. Kaede hurts the Voltron clans of Dragon and Crab worst with their high attachments and synergises well with the Water focus to trigger Void before Water (plus her ring immunity is very underrated where Fire dishonour kill is more common). The wide clans Lion and Unicorn with Hisu Mori Toride is the main reason why Tsukune has semi-retired. Sadly trying your best isn't good enough (she's played in long game dishonour).

Whilst Keeper of Water, Phoenix sadly should follow the scripted Water focus (disgusting with Ningyo) without over-committing with Azunami who compares unfavourably to Kaede. And Mori Seido + Water focus = 3x Benten's Touch, especially as Phoenix now have Ethereal Dreamer. With Fight On, it's quite easy to have a 7/7 Prodigy in 4 conflicts (that's without attachments). How very retro nostalgic!

There is an argument for Sanpuku Seido in Mori Seido builds but, because of the Water focus, I prefer Meditations as the common response is to fate up every character played. Meditations works best with a Water focus.

One card that may appear weak is maligned Magnificent Kimono but I believe it earns its place in Mori Seido + Haughty Magistrate decks, especially with Clarity of Purpose first attack. That free +1 Political can also be key vs Crane. A safer choice would have been 2x Finger of Jade but sadly nothing protects you from Cloud the Mind (which Phoenix runs at x3 in my view) due to your splash. You have Reprieve vs telegraphed kill set-ups (as well as Charge and Fushicho cheat into plays).

This may seem a good deck for that duelling shugenja card. But designs like that is why I really hate FFG design at times. They design card games with no sideboard. They include situational cards that may be dead in some match-ups. And they have very few cycling and looting mechanics. Uh, doh! Such awful design principles.

It's a Shugenja + Scholars build that focuses on Water and Earth, using ready effects to outrace its opponents to a stronghold win by occasionally spiking their tempo with Fight On. It looks very straight-forward to play.

I still believe a build like Spellbox is overall stronger in a tournament (first changing its Walking the Ways to other Air cards as they were insurance against bad luck in a local tourney and you have to accept risks in a bigger tourney). However, I feel Mori Seido is a very good meta-call decision if you notice there is a trend for having very few Glory 3+ characters in decks. Because an honoured Haughty Magistrate fated up still wins games just as easily.

#326
gmeista

gmeista

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 90 posts

Hey guys, what do you think of this deck? Its very similar to some of the other aggro spell decks. I made some changes to go even more aggro such as an extra assassinate. Also, I changed provinces around, I had more traditional provinces: Shameful, Public forums, Tao, Rally to cause (SH) and manicured gardens. I am thinking these might be better for trading provinces as are higher stated and punish an actual break? What do you think? I know Shameful is better tempo but based on these provinces it would need to be my SH and dont think shameful is a better SH province.

 

Deck Clan: Phoenix
 
Total Cards: (85)
 
Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)
 
Total Influence: (13/13)
 
Stronghold:  
1x Kyūden Isawa (Disciples of the Void #1)
 
Role:  
1x Keeper of Water (Core Set #217A)
 
Province: (5)  
Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  
1x Before the Throne (The Chrysanthemum Throne #61)
1x Kuroi Mori (Core Set #12)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Seeking the Truth (The Ebb and Flow #62)
1x Upholding Authority (Tainted Lands #23)
 
Character [Dynasty]: (40)  
3x Adept of the Waves (Core Set #84)
3x Asako Tsuki (Meditations on the Ephemeral #107)
3x Ethereal Dreamer (All and Nothing #89)
1x Isawa Atsuko (Core Set #92)
3x Isawa Tadaka (Disciples of the Void #10)
3x Isawa Uona (Breath of the Kami #8)
3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)
2x Kudaka (Breath of the Kami #13)
2x Mantis Tenkinja (Elements Unbound #111)
2x Master of Gisei Toshi (Fate Has No Secrets #88)
3x Prodigy of the Waves (Into the Forbidden City #46)
3x Shiba Yōjimbō (Core Set #89)
3x Solemn Scholar (Core Set #83)
 
Character [Conflict]: (6/10)  
3x Feral Ningyo (Tainted Lands #36)
3x Shrine Maiden (For Honor and Glory #36)
 
 
Attachment: (11)  
3x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
2x Hawk Tattoo (The Ebb and Flow #75)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
 
Event: (23)  
3x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)
2x Assassination (Core Set #203)
2x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
1x Censure (Into the Forbidden City #60)
2x Clarity of Purpose (Disciples of the Void #23)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x Hurricane Punch (Breath of the Kami #17)
1x Karmic Twist (Disciples of the Void #24)
3x Let Go (Core Set #155)
3x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)
 
Holding: (6)  
3x Favorable Ground (Core Set #128)
1x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)
1x Kanjo District (Meditations on the Ephemeral #108)
1x The Imperial Palace (The Chrysanthemum Throne #72)

  • sparrowhawk likes this

#327
Oishisan

Oishisan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
Good morning afternoon or evening everyone.

Have I mentioned how inspiring it is to read the deck posts and commentary. I too have been fiddling around with some new builds inspired by others and this is the current Phoenix Kyuden Isawa “Seeker of Air” build.

Stronghold: Kyuden Isawa

Provinces
Air: Frostbitten Plain
Earth: Upholding Authority
Fire: Night Raid
Void: Kurdish Mori
Water: Demonstrating Excellence (Seeker of Air Swap)

Dynasty

CHARACTERS (34)
3x Adept of Waves
3x Ashoka Tsuki
1x Ethereal Dreamer
3x Fushicho
2x Henshin Disciple
3x Isawa Tadaka
3x Isawa Uona
1x Master of Gisei Toshi
3x Naive Student
3x Prodegy of Waves
3x Solemn Scholar
3X Kudaka
3x Seeker Initiates

HOLDINGS (6)
2x Bustling Academy
3x Imperial Storehouses
1x Magnificent Lighthouse

DYNASTY (40)

EVENTS (24)
2X Banzaii
1x Benton’s Touch
3x Charge
3x Clarity of Purpose
3x Court Games
1x Display of Power
3x Hurricane Punch
2x Let Go
3x Supernatural Storm
3x Wlaking the Way

ATTACHMENTS (10)
3x Cloud the Wind
2x Embrace the Void
2x Fine Katana
3x Ornate Fan

CHARACTERS (6)
3x Roving Michibiku
3x Shrine Maiden

Charge set up comes from the Acabemies and Walking the Way. While not perfect, you can Walk in a battle with Uona is a free bow and if you have Charge, increase your chances of good tech. Monks are flavor, but work with Hurricane. I’ve considered Hawk Tatoo or even Earth Mantra to play off Tadaka, but haven’t seen a big benefit.

Taking two provinces and/or Rings on turn 1 has not not been a problem due to force pumps, but it is a little susceptible to Tadaka Fushisho floods, but Walking has helped there too.

All in all a fun deck, but I’m open to trying new tech.
  • sparrowhawk likes this

#328
sparrowhawk

sparrowhawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2038 posts

Hey guys, what do you think of this deck? Its very similar to some of the other aggro spell decks. I made some changes to go even more aggro such as an extra assassinate. Also, I changed provinces around, I had more traditional provinces: Shameful, Public forums, Tao, Rally to cause (SH) and manicured gardens. I am thinking these might be better for trading provinces as are higher stated and punish an actual break? What do you think? I know Shameful is better tempo but based on these provinces it would need to be my SH and dont think shameful is a better SH province.


At least you appreciate your province line up does not reflect your aggro strategy!

I took a break and only recently returned. I haven't fully absorbed all the new cards yet (last weekend was a 4 day break due to a UK public holiday) so it was a pleasant surprise to look up Seeking the Truth and unlike the others, this actually works in Keeper of Water! I'm going to steal that in future in the right decks (like Mori Seido Fight On). Thank you for prompting me to look up a card.

Now Seeking the Truth reads "break me in conflict 4" but that still is a tempo kill usually and against Hisu Mori Toride, it will always be relevant. But it does work better in a higher Censure build due to this Achilles heel.

Before the Throne is what really sticks out as out of place. Cards like Tenkinja demonstrate the value of Fate so play Manicured Garden in Fate starved Phoenix. But that's subjective.

I do understand why you have ended up with Kuroi Mori in the hold and that's not a huge issue - hey, it's the best stronghold province in the game! But here's the thing: in a tourney, if you are a good player, your focus is to win on time. Every province must help you achieve this and Shameful Display does that more than Kuroi Mori in the hold which feels a bit negative and defensive. Aggro means aggro. So my preference would be for Shameful Display in the line and Entrenched Position in the hold (outraced by Hisu decks is a worry but balanced ready decks can't play Waning Hostilities). But there's nothing wrong with your province array really for a friendly game apart from jarring Before the Throne. Perhaps it's there to help fund 2x Assassination, 2x Banzai, 2x Tenkinja?

I don't like more than 1 Assassination unless I have at least 3 cancels. It's a crutch, folks. Here you also have 2x Mantis Tenkinja which flatters to deceive in my view. Read the highly amusing playing-on-Aussie-stereotype review on Imperial Advisor. I would drop Tenkinja by 1 (at least) and Kudaka up 1 as she's a power house unique so x3 (neutrals shouldn't be so good, bad design meta ubiquity).

I'm a huge fan of Clarity of Purpose but then I have been stuffed by it playing Crane many times. To me it's a x3 card, my Crane.Phoenix tempo deck plays it x3, it's so good. But you also need to support it with a Political bias. x3 Kudaka helps but so does x3 Master of GT. I don't understand the logic of many x1 cards (except Doji Shizue because of Actress). So Atsuko cut for a 3rd Master is my preference in conjunction with 3x Clarity. Atsuko is not a defence vs going wide clans, she works best with Kaede.

I do like Shiba Yojimbo which I don't think was in IFightDragons' GenCon. As for Hurricane Punch, riffing off 6 cards feels dangerously combo. But Maidens do find them for you to use them and the 1 influence is convenient and you can use opposing monks too for the cycle so I've come to respect what outwardly looks a clunky monk reliant combo that can't be recursed for Uona. It's a free cantrip - FFG design really don't understand the ABCs of card abuse! I only wish I had first seen Travis' Gencon build when I returned before building a very similar build myself. It really does need another 3 monks though to qualify as reliable.

But this is all just opinions on the internet - go with what works best for you.

@Oishisan
I shall respond later today (if someone hasn't already).

#329
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

My turn to critique, Severijn! :) I only hope this is taken constructively...

For me, Fight On means playing Shameful Display (which works great with Mori Seido). I'd play Kuroi Mori in the line splash Unicorn with Talisman or in the hold as splash Crane Keeper of Air dishonour with Display of Power and Guardian Kami. Kuroi Mori may indeed be the best stronghold province in a no time limit game but you mention taking it to a tourney and sadly that's a variant game.

I also feel Phoenix have enough native draw (Library, Student, honour economy via self-honour/Mediator) but notoriously Fate-starved so my preference is for Manicured Garden. But that's admittedly very subjective.

From your provinces, your build is long game control rather than short game tempo (Kuroi Mori vs Shameful Display, Fertile Fields vs Manicured Garden, Upholding Authority vs Public Forum). Yet other cards are a mix of tempo (Stoic Gunso) and control (Radiant Orator which hurts Censure, Harmonize etc). In my experience, being "Neither Fish Nor Fowl" often gets you nowhere. Commit to an archetype and rinse every synergy you can as focused as possible to get those synergies in games consistently.

I think our main deviation in build philosophy here is how best to leverage Mori Seido. To me, you only choose Mori Seido over Kyuden because you notice a trend that players (like me) have very few Glory 3+ characters. It always comes with Haughty Magistrate. I'm surprised at its omission. Radiant Orator sadly does not compare (covert is a thing).

On the other hand, your Stoic Gunso is most definitely a nice idea in a high-low build such as yours with so many weenies. Very cute.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. 

 

Looking at the Shameful display versus Kuroi Mori argument: I think it is a preference thing. I like Kuroi Mori more because it is stronger on the stronghold, has more province strength and doesn't necessitate a defender. I especially like it more here because I play with Atsuko in my list. Atsuko's swing during void is amazing when you play a bunch of small characters and keepers to support this, and Kuroi Mori works neatly in this strategy. I did not regard fight on as a way to trick players into attacking shameful display. My main use is to send in a defender if I need one, allowing me to send an additional attacker to bag that province break while my opponent underestimates my defensive capability. I also like to combine fight on with clarity of purpose or harmonize from the conflict cards, or with my chikai order protector that is then staying unbowed when the conflict ends.

 

I find myself doing a single buy on turn 1 frequently, so that I can bank 3-4 fate for the following turns or for my conflict cards if need be. I also have charge and keeper initiate which helps mitigate cost issues. Having just a single buy often either coaxes my opponent into doing the same, or they buy a second character and I get to play a defensive turn (excluding hiruma skirmisher/ningyo shenanigans). This means there's often just going to be two conflicts in total, so I will get to harvest fate of the rings. Following this approach has resulted in me having more fate than I can spend. I also use the meddling mediator to steal my opponent's fate given the opportunity. Because of this, I prefer fertile field's card. 

 

Speaking about my cards, I value cards that are good throughout the game, and cards that affect the state of the game. For this deck, I went with cards that excel on defense, like radiant orator, harmonize and so on, but I also like to add cards that go in the opposite way and do so hard. Stoic gunso lets me suddenly send 5 strength military the other way, with no warning that this was coming, and follow-up with charge. This kind of explosive cards are nice in a deck that is otherwise pretty controlling. It makes the whole list more versatile. My defensive cards also enable these huge retaliatory swings. For instance, if you covert my radiant orator: This card is also a very powerful attacker. 

 

My main use of mori seido is to nullify opponent's characters by dishonoring them and using my stronghold to put them to zero. My secondary use is to win imperial favor. My tertiary use is to use this to help characters that depend on glory, as well as help my honored characters in a military conflict.

 

As for haughty magistrate: I'd run him if I did not have a need for more courtiers. I want all the good courtiers as they are crucial to my defense, and I don't want more than 3 3-drops considering that I have a large high-end. I need my fate for those characters instead. For instance: If I was running with a lion splash, I would easily put in haughty magistrate for the legion of one runs.

 

I'll add my comments on the other decks here later.


  • sparrowhawk likes this

#330
sparrowhawk

sparrowhawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2038 posts
What I liked about the Stoic Gunso in your build and why I called it "very cute" is it allows you to sacrifice your Charged in Fushicho to then get 2 turns of Kaede or Tadaka. That's why I certainly will be switching 1 Fight On and 1 Kimono for 2 Stoic Gunso. Imitation is the highest form of flattery! I left my build exactly as I had built it before clicking on this thread and finding you had posted first.

I also want to try out a switch of 2 provinces - Entrenched Position in the hold (military has the higher totals) and Seeking the Truth in the line. Because if that province doesn't fit in Mori Seido Fight On, what is it for? (But that was the false logic behind my embarrassing trial with Fire Tensai Initiate - yes, FFG release bad cards in LCGs, I reckon it's a late nerf that made it so bad, like Wandering Ronin.)

And I keep thinking I should also try Sempuku Seido in a Mori Seido Fight On build. And you go down the "Thou shall not break!" defensive rabbit hole - that gets you 6 points when time is called!

And that's the issue. It's why you see so many samey province line ups in successful decks. Because of the time limit and scoring system encourages those same tempo strategies. It's sad really because the game can be so much more (if you have the endurance for epic long games).

You have to classify decks into 3 categories:
1 - Wild: "the way Nature made L5R" with an unlimited time limit (and no decklist preview)
2 - Tame: for tournaments with no previews
3 - Pet: for tournaments with day 2 previews

Each category has its own types of decks and card choices appropriate for it.

For me, I tend to play Tame decks because I mainly play in tournaments or local leagues (friendly games lack that edge) and as I'm too late for my local league (plus I don't like the scoring system that encourages playing as many games as possible at our local store only), that means I have played just 4 games since Birmingham Grand Kotei. I'm just pure theorycraft and I like the adrenaline buzz of playing untested decks in tourneys. But that's what my focus is on.

The Phoenix.Crane Seeker of Air Dishonour build is very interesting but it's simply not relevant to what I focus on. That's probably why I couldn't get to grips with the long game Dishonour focus of your deck combined with your tempo cards for aggression.

There's no Kudaka, no Haughty Magistrate winning any conflict. And if they choose Air to deny your Haughty, your Master of GT has your Display of Power covered vs. cancel. There is a lot of defence in your build - but for what end result? There are easier ways to attrition grind out a Dishonour win and rarely on time, I fear. I mention this only because you said you planned to take it to a tourney.

The build is very solid, Severijn, and will work fine in an untimed game. But sincerely I have my doubts it's the right type of deck to take to a tournament. The long game province line up is schizophrenic to the aggression in many of your other cards that hints at stronghold win.

Feel free to ignore this. I know that I will be stealing your 2x Stoic Gunso so thank you for that improvement.

#331
Asklepios

Asklepios

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 5433 posts

I love that Gunso trick, will have to try it out. Never enough influence eh?



#332
sparrowhawk

sparrowhawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2038 posts

I love that Gunso trick, will have to try it out. Never enough influence eh?


Yeah, just a flashier variant on the old "ready the bowed Keeper Initiate with your Gunso winning an Earth conflict" that is very old skool Core Set Crab play. You can do it here with Water too. Gunso is also good with severely harmful trap provinces as it is non-participating but that's an edge case.

Very cute.



#333
sparrowhawk

sparrowhawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2038 posts

@Oishisan (as promised).

I wrote a longer reply but then lost it - so this is going to be short (for me).

 

1. Why Seeker of Air? Walking the Way and Bustling Academy are best when you can discard Keeper Initiates. You are already playing 9 Water shugenja. Hurricane Punch needs monks like Keeper Initiates. Seeker only gives you Frostbitten Crossing that's hit-and-miss. You have the influence in Seeker for a 3rd Let Go. Keeper then adds 2 Hawk Tattoos.

 

2. Your province array is ... unusual. I would reconsider them all except Kuroi Mori which is a good choice under the hold for a Keeper role that can turn their exploratory attack into Water if you feel you can win to gain 1F and all discarded Keepers. But mostly it punishes 5 unbalanced Clans.

 

3. If you are looking for "fun" jank based on Walking the Way + Fushicho + Charge, can I suggest a Courtiers + Shugenja build that is Keeper of Water that splashes 3 Perfect Gift (to find Charge), 3 Disdainful Remark (jank synergy with Gift), 3 Steward of Law (courtier scholar), 3 For Shame and 2 Noble Sacrifice (ideally a bowed no fate Fushicho)? It uses Mori Seido and builds itself (because Phoenix is the most trait-based Clan).

 

4. There is a future "draw control" build based on Scholars + Bustling Academy + Magnificent Lighthouse but it's nowhere near realised yet and I hope it never will be because it will be very NPE if it ever become viable. I still remember Elemental Augury from MTG (combo'd with milling)...

 

5. Playing Kyuden Isawa and not playing Against the Waves feels perverse. If you aren't rinsing your hold for max. benefit, have you considered switching to Mori Seido? Especially since Benten's Touch is Air for Uona (though you will need 3 copies of amazing Ethereal Dreamer to help power it).

 

I'm sorry I can't add more than that. I'm not really comfortable giving feedback on "fun" decks. Perhaps someone else less ultra-competitive than me can provide better feedback more in tune with what you like to get from the game. Each to their own and I'm slightly jealous that I just don't have enthusiasm for "fun" decks. It's all about optimising for me and that's a rather sad failing, really. Keep having fun!



#334
Oishisan

Oishisan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
Your feedback is perfect Sparrowhawk, exactly what I was looking for. In truth, I hadn’t considered a Crane build so I might give that a go. With regards to the Province line up, I’m always confused and conflicted so that feedback is particularly helpful.

Truth be told, the original build was a Keeper Role, but I wanted to switch things up. And while Seeker Initiate doesn’t have the recursion theme, it does have card draw and the ability to look into the future (5 cards deep) for Charge, Conflict Characters etc., and it too is a Monk. Two, and less significant, I already have a Phoenix Dishonor Keeper Deck. That said, I might just switch Roles between the two.

All the best and thank you again for the feedback.

#335
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

"You'll never fight alone" (fight on! fight on!)
Phoenix.Crab
Fast Voltron Aggro

Isawa Mori Seidō
Keeper of Water
Manicured Garden Air
Public Forum Earth
Meditations on the Tao Fire
Shameful Display Void
Rally to the Cause Water
Influence: 13/13

Dynasty Deck (40)

Characters (33)
3x Adept of the Waves
3x Asako Tsuki
3x Ethereal Dreamer
3x Fushichō
3x Haughty Magistrate
3x Isawa Kaede
3x Isawa Tadaka
3x Keeper Initiate
3x Naive Student
3x Prodigy of the Waves
3x Solemn Scholar

Holdings (7)
3x Favorable Ground
2x Forgotten Library
1x Kanjo District
1x The Imperial Palace

Conflict Deck (40)

Events (21)
3x Banzai!
3x Benten's Touch
3x Censure
3x Charge!
3x Clarity of Purpose
3x Court Games
3x Fight On ///// /

Attachments (14)
3x Cloud the Mind
3x Fine Katana
2x Magnificent Kimono
3x Ornate Fan
3x Reprieve ///

Characters (5)
3x Feral Ningyo
2x Hiruma Skirmisher ////

 

Looks fun and effective to me. It reminds me of the Phoenix splash Lion deck I posted earlier, in that you do much of the classic phoenix game plan, except with more military strength. I do have a couple of comments:

  • Because you are lacking Against the Waves, I am wary of playing too many big shugenja (I don't really mind if they AtW a small shugenja), so I'd recommend going with the 3 fushicho, 4 5-costers split that I have in my deck. This, together with a cut of either 1 magistrate and/or the imperial palace, should give you room for Chikai Order Protector, which is after Fushicho my favorite charge target. You block with one of your 1 costers and COP and have the COP left over. It's so easy to keep this character unbowed.
  • Haughty magistrate is pretty powerful, but solely offense-oriented. The only escort you have in your deck for haughty will be the kaede, which may be enough. I prefer to have at least one more, usually fearsome mystic, that has enough glory at least during air. This is why I am not sure whether I'd like 3 haughty magistrates. With my lion splash, I went with 2 shiba yojimbo, but this might not be right for your list since if you go with COP, you want to keep your number of shugenja/courtier pretty high.
  • The provinces look fine to me. It's a preference thing whether you want Manicured garden over Fertile fields, and you already mentioned why you'd want the shameful display.
  • With the number of Shugenja you have, I agree with playing 3 cloud the mind. I would however be on the look-out for a slot for harmonize. Not because it works well with charge, even if that is the case, but also because this helps so much versus Dragon in my games against them, as well as against any clan that needs a particular character in the conflict during an attack. It's a very powerful card in this archetype, and gives your characters another way to stay unbowed. 
  • Azunami in this deck would certainly call for Taryu-Jiai, an excellent card to combine with Azunami. I think it is playable considering everyone wants access to Cloud the Mind nowadays. You'll find your target. The issue is more on that there's only so many 5s you can play in a deck. 
  • Meditation also enjoys my preference when you are interested in defending and holding your provinces. Your opponents have the following issue because of it: Either you buy without fate, and make my water ring stronger, or you don't and make meditation stronger.

Now, onto other comments:

  • Seeking the truth is the province that I am liking more and more over the Rally to the cause in the row. Both can be farmed, both are not what I really want in a province, but seeking the truth is 5 strength, which amounts to something. Usually this means your opponent needs to spend an additional resource breaking it. And yeah, they need to do this last. I just like it. I should play this more when I have holdings like kanjo that could land on it.
  • Kuroi Mori doesn't lengthen my games that much. In fact, many games I play don't end up at my stronghold, so it might as well have been Shameful Display in that case. The reason why I feel I go to time usually has to do with my deck employing a very slow strategy, like leaning on guard duty. With my crab build, I have been completing my games within the hour, usually ending at 40-50 minutes and thus in time. With my guard duty deck, most games go to time. On the bright side, all my timed games ended in my favor.
  • I also recommend clarity of purpose as a 3x. It's hard to go wrong with that card. 
  • I think the hurricane punch splash still wants Tattooed Wanderer over Hawk Tattoo. It gives you 5 monks in your conflict deck, which is enough for hurricane punch.
  • The other earth provinces I like to play are ancestral lands and Public Forum. I don't like Entrenched position because military decks can just get above the 10 strength if they want to, at least more easily than political clans can versus Ancestral Lands. As long as Scorpion dominates the meta, I'll be playing Ancestral lands over Entrenched position. In this case, I don't have it on my Stronghold, so I want a province that breaks and gives me information. Upholding authority seemed fitting. I will be looking into Seeking the truth some more though.
  • Sanpuku seido has four issues: Keeper initiates hurt. I need to hold back a defender. Covert hurts. And finally, it is dead against phoenix. I only use Sanpuku seido in a deck that goes the full 5 2-strength holdings, since a 3 strength Sanpuku Seido is not going to break easily, and it becomes a game of the opponent having to break either Sanpuku seido or your favorite void province. In the crab splash, I prefer meditation because of its synergy with the water ring. And I want to defend my provinces with just a court games sometimes.
  • For reference, my decks all win through province breaks. I don't think dishonor wins are feasible in the time frame I want for my games. And winning on provinces is just easier for me.
  • It might be a good idea to try Master of the Gisei Toshi with Haughty magistrate. I'll be looking into implementing that. Sounds like a build where I'd want to use against the waves however, and more shugenja for benten's touch.

  • sparrowhawk likes this

#336
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

On gmeista's decklist: I personally do like the province line-up you are going with. Seeking the truth is tough to break, and so is before the throne. I do not believe Kuroi Mori is bad at tournaments. On the topic of the alternative suggestion by Sparrowhawk, I think Ancestral lands is better than entrenched position, mainly because it is significantly easier to increase military compared to politics. The clans focusing on military will just break you.

I think you should run more air cards in your list. Specifically air cards that you can play without monks. Uona's ability needs about 5 air cards that you want to play. Personally, I also like to play the full 3 banzai in phoenix, especially now that people are migrating away from it. The other preference thing is Kudaka: I don't like her over the other 4 cost shugenja that we have in-faction. I'd rather play 3 Isawa Atsuko, because she contributes more to actually winning conflicts. She also poisons the void ring.

 

On Oishisan's decklist: I recommend a deckbuilder, which makes it easier to post your list. My preference is using bushibuilder.com because it shows me all kinds of useful information, like the number of shugenja, monks, scholars and so on that I have, in addition to the odds of flipping one. It also lets you export them for easy viewing here on the forum. The core idea behind your deck looks interesting, though I am not sure how well seeker initiates would perform keeping that in mind. I personally prefer to run this kind of deck out of the glory stronghold because I like fearsome mystic as one way to pressure and win air conflicts. 5 glory is no joke. From my own experience, I don't think walking the way is necessary for a charge deck at all. I just discard my expensive characters. Speaking of charge characters, I go with 10 characters that I love charging (2 tadaka, 2 kaede, 3 fushicho, 3 chikai order protector). A good charge target gives me at least the value of a banzai, or a good effect when attacking, like giving the ring the void trait. The chikai order protector even gives me a good ability when defending.

Given that you want to focus on the air ring, I'd cut the prodigy of the waves, especially when you also don't run feral ningyo.


  • gmeista likes this

#337
Oishisan

Oishisan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
Thank you Severijn,

I will check out the Deck Builder and the suggested Character Changes. Based in large part on the feedback of you and Sparrowhawk, I’ve switched back to a Keeper Role and it flows much better already.

All the best.

#338
Severijn

Severijn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

So, I just want to share a finding. The scorpion splash that I like most out of seeker of air phoenix is now the following:

3x Mark of Shame ///

3x Infiltrator //////

 

Playing this gives me incentive to play a couple of duels that mess with the dial, like Policy Debate and the new Taryu-Jiai. The old stronghold works best when you're dueling. This led me to this early draft:

 

Firesting
by: Severijn

Isawa Mori Seidō  (Core)
Seeker of Air
Entrenched Position  (Core)
Fertile Fields  (Core)
Manicured Garden  (Core)
Meditations on the Tao  (Core)
Shameful Display  (Core)


Dynasty Deck (40)
Character (33)
3   Ethereal Dreamer  (All and Nothing)
3   Naive Student  (Core)
3   Solemn Scholar  (Core)
3   Adept of the Waves  (Core)
3   Asako Tsuki  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)
3   Meddling Mediator  (Core)
3   Radiant Orator  (Core)
3   Fearsome Mystic  (Core)
3   Isawa Atsuko  (Core)
3   Asako Azunami  (The Ebb and Flow)
3   Isawa Kaede  (Tears of Amaterasu)

Holding (7)
2   Forgotten Library  (Core)
1   Kanjo District  (Meditations on the Ephemeral)
3   Magnificent Lighthouse  (For Honor and Glory)
1   The Imperial Palace  (The Chrysanthemum Throne)


Conflict Deck (40)
Attachment (17)
3   Embrace the Void  (Tears of Amaterasu)
3   Fine Katana  (Core)
3   Ornate Fan  (Core)
2   Cloud the Mind  (Core)
3   Infiltrator  (The Fires Within)
3   Mark of Shame  (All and Nothing)

Character (6)
3   Goblin Sneak  (Tears of Amaterasu)
3   Feral Ningyo  (Tainted Lands)

Event (17)
3   Banzai!  (Core)
2   Benten's Touch  (Into the Forbidden City)
3   Court Games  (Core)
3   For Shame!  (Core)
3   Policy Debate  (For Honor and Glory)
1   Supernatural Storm  (Core)
2   Taryū-Jiai  (Elements Unbound)


Deck Built using https://www.bushibuilder.com

 

If I was playing in a tournament, I would be playing Tadaka over Kaede in this list. The idea is that you get to play Infiltrator while you have a magnificent lighthouse in play. You get to play the best card in the top 3 of your opponent, and you're burning through their conflict deck while doing so. With 5 2-strength holdings, you'll be tough to break for a conquest deck, and this is supplemented with cards that enable a strong defense like Radiant orator and policy debate taking away their trump card. Your own strategy is usually just breaking provinces, which is easier than you'd think with adept of the waves, ningyo and radiant orator. And that's before they face the high cost characters. You also just deplete their cards with these tough provinces and snipe their best cards throughout the game. Fearsome mystic, kaede, atsuko, goblin sneak and meditation on the tao will also pressure their fate resource. So we're attacking on three avenues: Fate, Cards/honor and provinces. While I think this is worse than the crab splash I posted earlier, it sure is a lot of fun to play. I am especially happy that this can hold against heavy military commitments.



#339
Oishisan

Oishisan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

I tried to go a different direction with this deck.  The original intent was to design a deck that could win through Honor or Military. there for it was my goal to design a deck that could gain 5-7 honor per turn.  The deck does this through Honoring your personalities (2 honor per turn), manipulating the Air Ring (2 Honor per turn) and through underbidding your honor bids (3 Honor turn 1).  I didn't include Benten's Touch, which could be an obvious miss, but I'm hoping Soul Beyond Reproach will be enough 

 

I don't get the opportunity to play very frequently and welcome the feedback from those that do.

 

Deck Name:  Glorious Isawa

Deck Clan: Phoenix
 
Total Cards: (85)
 
Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)
 
Total Influence: (10/10)
 
Stronghold:  
1x Isawa Mori Seidō (Core Set #5)
 
Role:  
1x Seeker of Air (Core Set #214B)
 
Province: (5)  
Air (2/2) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (0/1)  
1x Before the Throne (The Chrysanthemum Throne #61)
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Sanpuku Seidō (Disciples of the Void #2)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)
 
Character [Dynasty]: (39)  
3x Asako Diplomat (Core Set #85)
3x Haughty Magistrate (The Chrysanthemum Throne #69)
3x Inquisitive Ishika (Disciples of the Void #7)
3x Isawa Uona (Breath of the Kami #8)
3x Meddling Mediator (Core Set #86)
3x Naive Student (Core Set #81)
3x Radiant Orator (Core Set #87)
3x Shiba Tsukune (Core Set #93)
3x Solemn Scholar (Core Set #83)
3x Kudaka (Breath of the Kami #13)
3x Miya Mystic (Core Set #125)
 
Character [Conflict]: (6/10)  
3x Kaito Kosori (Disciples of the Void #18)
3x Seeker of Knowledge (Core Set #171)
 
 
Attachment: (7)  
3x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)
2x Embrace the Void (Tears of Amaterasu #16)
2x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
 
Event: (27)  
3x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)
2x All and Nothing (All and Nothing #95)
2x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
2x Censure (Into the Forbidden City #60)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
2x Display of Power (Core Set #179)
2x Game of Sadane (All and Nothing #93)
3x Soul Beyond Reproach (The Ebb and Flow #74)
2x Spies at Court (Core Set #209)
3x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)
1x Taryu-Jiai (Elements Unbound #119)
2x Winds of Change (Breath of the Kami #19)
 
Holding: (7)  
2x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)
1x Kanjo District (Meditations on the Ephemeral #108)
1x The Imperial Palace (The Chrysanthemum Throne #72)






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: legend of the Five Rings, phoenix, L5R, meta, deck, strategy