338 replies to this topic

[IFightDragons]

No doubt that Voice of Honor or any event cancel is very powerful, the reason I don't like it in particular is because it's inconsistent and I'm a player who likes consistency. Crane is certainly a good splash, as there's basically no bad splash in the game just some that are better than others. Still, I haven't played everything enough to get a statistical feel for it other than Dragon has felt the most impactful to splash right now of what I've tried. 

[dbmeboy]

(Warning, new player here who thinks he's going to want to play Phoenix, so excuse me if I sound completely stupid.  And by "new," I mean I don't have the cards yet and haven't played a game)

 

Is it worth splashing Dragon and running Togashi Kazue?  Or is he too expensive to be worth it?  Seems like he could be useful for keeping and important character (eg Tsukune) in play.

[Hakkor]

Depends on your strategy. It's useful if you are going to focus and invest in high cost characters (like the new shugenja in the next card pack), so a later turn Kazue keeps them safe from void and water rings. Also, playing high cost characters will make you pass first usually, so paying her will be easier.

 

But, if you are more interested on palying defensively with a higher number of mid-range characters, Kazue gets a little more situational.

 

Anyway, Kazue is always a good friend of Spies in the Court, possibly saving your big shugenjas from hate.

[Ignithas]

(Warning, new player here who thinks he's going to want to play Phoenix, so excuse me if I sound completely stupid.  And by "new," I mean I don't have the cards yet and haven't played a game)

 

Is it worth splashing Dragon and running Togashi Kazue?  Or is he too expensive to be worth it?  Seems like he could be useful for keeping and important character (eg Tsukune) in play.

Most people think that Let Go, Miromoto's Fury and Tatooed Wanderer are better cards.

[dbmeboy]

Most people think that Let Go, Miromoto's Fury and Tatooed Wanderer are better cards.

Makes sense. I have a hard time judging the value of Let Go and Mirumoto’s Fury due to lack of experience. No idea how often they are useful.

[estyles]

2) I don't run Way of the Phoenix, at all. It simply doesn't do enough for a conflict card, especially in a faction yearning for impactful reach effects. Know the World goes in and out depending on what exactly I want the deck to do. Crane have 6 events that honor immediately that they always mulligan for and a couple of characters that self honor/proliferate honor. Just taking the Fire Ring will not turn off Voice of Honor for them most of the time.

 
Just when I was starting to come around on WotP, someone that agrees with me...  I was hoping that someone on this thread would present a well-argued case for why it is good and how to use it, which I haven't really seen yet.   I wasn't exactly swayed by "you don't need to think if your opponent is smart enough to take the most optimal choices, you just know what is the worst ring that they can trigger and forbids them to touch it."   Because, similar to what you say, if it doesn't actually do anything (besides keeping your opponent from doing something they might not have done anyway), then it might as well be literally any other card.  And also, if all the ring effects are in a similar ballpark as far as value (other than Air, which you might be able to get extra mileage out of re-using multiple times), then the marginal increase in value of Fire over Water again might not be worth a conflict card.  And I don't see it as particularly likely that one ring will get multiple fate built up on it.  Even 1 Fate is probably enough to make any ring worth taking, and it's very likely that 2 or 3 rings at a time will have 1 Fate on them.
 
So, all that said, the reason I've started to come around on Way of the Phoenix is because it's free and I had too many cards that were powerful but expensive.  Even if I swap in the neutral attachments (despite desperately hoping to find a deck that's better without them), Fate can be really hard to come by and any conflict card that can provide value for free is worth considering.  But then on the other hand - maybe there's value in playing higher-cost higher-impact cards, drawing less, and hitting the Air ring as much as possible to either honor or dishonor?

[estyles]

(Warning, new player here who thinks he's going to want to play Phoenix, so excuse me if I sound completely stupid.  And by "new," I mean I don't have the cards yet and haven't played a game)

 

Is it worth splashing Dragon and running Togashi Kazue?  Or is he too expensive to be worth it?  Seems like he could be useful for keeping and important character (eg Tsukune) in play.

 

The biggest problem with running Togashi Kazue is that against anyone playing Dragon or Scorpion, or splashing Dragon or Scorpion, you just spent 3 Fate on a guy that can be discarded for a 0 Fate card.  I hate cheap removal.  Nobody is saying he isn't impactful, but it's spending a lot of resources on something that is very vulnerable.

[Hakkor]

She's still a perfectly fine 3/3 character. But not a courtier or shugenja, so she lacks synergy with the Phoenix card pool. The only card that would inherently combo well with Phoenix and its defensive tactics is Mirumoto's Fury. The rest is up to deckbuilding strategy.

[estyles]

She's still a perfectly fine 3/3 character. But not a courtier or shugenja, so she lacks synergy with the Phoenix card pool. The only card that would inherently combo well with Phoenix and its defensive tactics is Mirumoto's Fury. The rest is up to deckbuilding strategy.

 

Since most clans can get a character with 3 in one skill for 1 Fate, it feels like you're paying a Conflict card and 2 extra Fate for the ability to ambush in and the flexibility of having it in both types....  a little painful...

[ellonellanfair]

Way of the Phoenix has just been buffed with the ruling that when used on contested rings that gain elements through Seeker of Knowledge and Isawa Kaede, will disallow opponents from choosing the contested ring (if unclaimed) and all the elements it gained (i.e. void and air as well). Some of the cards in core set are indeed sleepers. I'd agree with estyles though, as of core set, Way of the Phoenix is underwhelming.

 

I agree that Crane is one of the stronger splashes. I don't see why people would not add 3x For Shame in Phoenix given that Mori Seido can increase the glory of opponents characters for the WHOLE PHASE. Reducing Hida Kisada to a 5/0 after he uses Mountain Does not Fall is so sweet. Together with Steward of Law, For Shame becomes the best Control card you'd ever wish for.

 

As for honoring characters, we also have Shameful Display to be added to the list. Miya mystic is necessary if you're not splashing Let Go. A cloud the mind on Tsukune hurts and it's not a dead card given that neutral attachments are autoinclude. Here's what I'm running:

 

Stronghold:  

1x Isawa Mori Seidō (Core Set #5)

 

Role:  

1x Seeker of Void (Core Set #218B)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (2/2) Water (0/1)  

1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)

1x Kuroi Mori (Core Set #12)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (40)  

3x Adept of the Waves (Core Set #84)

3x Asako Diplomat (Core Set #85)

2x Fearsome Mystic (Core Set #91)

3x Isawa Atsuko (Core Set #92)

3x Isawa Masahiro (Core Set #90)

3x Meddling Mediator (Core Set #86)

2x Miya Mystic (Core Set #125)

3x Naive Student (Core Set #81)

3x Radiant Orator (Core Set #87)

3x Serene Warrior (Core Set #88)

3x Shiba Peacemaker (Core Set #82)

3x Shiba Tsukune (Core Set #93)

3x Shiba Yōjimbō (Core Set #89)

 

Character [Conflict]: (3/10)  

3x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)

 

 

Attachment: (11)  

2x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)

3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

3x Magnificent Kimono (Core Set #172)

3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

 

Event: (26)  

3x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)

3x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

3x Display of Power (Core Set #179)

3x For Shame! (Core Set #207)

2x Outwit (Core Set #212)

3x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)

3x Voice of Honor (Core Set #145)

 

Holding: (3)  

3x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)

[Caldera]

Some interesting ideas on here. I think I'll take a leaf out of @IFightDragons' book and try Dragon splash. Mirumoto's Fury would fit really well into my defensive Phoenix deck, not sure why I didn't consider that earlier - probably because my other deck at the moment is Dragon so I'd have to proxy my proxies...

@Sparrowhawk and @Ellonellanfair: I think you've made some good arguments for the honouring/Crane approach, but I'm still not convinced at the moment. You've pointed to Shameful Display, but actually I think that's another reason not to go down that route: because so many decks seem to be are running it (unsurprisingly) you are just as likely to run into it yourself - and being dishonoured hurts Phoenix more than most. As for For Shame, I agree that it synergizes well with Steward of Law, but having a Courtier in play at the right time is less of a guarantee than if you were Crane or Scorpion.

I dunno. I've got an awful lot to learn still, and I am admittedly basing a lot of my views on playing either competitive 1-core only of solo practice/theory crafting (I.e. heavily flawed). But that experience included having to face a turn 1 Kisada as first player, and attacking straight into...Shameful Display. I think I had to waste my Stronghold's action in order play a Conflict card, and yeah he played The Mountain at the end of it.

Now I think of it, that Unicorn character that lets you peek at Provinces would have been handy...

[ellonellanfair]

You can pack up to 12 courtiers in the Dynasty Deck within Phoenix alone (Asako Diplomat, Meddling Mediator, Naive Student and Radiant Orator) excluding Steward of Law and Seeker of Knowledge. That's a healthy number of Courtiers to play For Shame. It is primarily important for Phoenix to honor themselves and secondary would be to dishonor their opponent so that Mori Seido is turned on. I think For Shame is worth its slot in Phoenix no matter the splash.

 

Dragon is just as good for Phoenix since it is weak early game and Miramoto's Fury is clutch. Having Let Go liberates you from Miya Mystic whose slot can go to Solemn Scholar or what not. Dragon is indeed a solid splash to any faction because of those two cards.

 

Given that most decks are running Shameful Display, you must use it as well since there's nothing in the card pool that can stop the action. Experienced players against Phoenix know that you want to be honored so they'll play their Court Games back at you to remove your honored status. That's where Voice of Honor comes in. It's a steep climb against Crane (Save your assassinate for Savvy politicians) and Scorpion (you just need one more honored character, but their tricks dishonor their own characters turning on Mori Seido) and sometimes Lion (Assassinate on Librarian/Gunso, For Shame the Honored General). 

[RaistlinTN1]

Have someone being able to win a single game against scorpion? I know that is the worst matchup. But i have just played 2 games in a row against them i had felt totally powerless. The worst to games that i have ever played, i had the sensation that i could not do anything to win both games.

 

I do not know is was the case for other phoenix players, but i think as long as the scorpion is so popular, phoenix is not going to be able to compete at all.

 

Maybe I'm overeacting due to these games, this is why i want to know if any of you have had the same sensations

[nightcrawlers]

I have to say, I wholeheartedly disagree with most of the points being made about Way Of The Phoenix.

I think WotP is an easy x3.

It almost always disrupts your opponents plans, which is always great. I've found that more and more rings have become critical my opponents and my own game plan. Even more so when playing Phoenix characters, you often telegraph what rings you'll be going for based of your abilities (Fearsome Mystic ... oh your going for air),WotP can lock in those rings for you.

[IFightDragons]

I've settled as a 1x for WotP in my recent builds, mostly to disrupt Keeper plays. I can see 2x for worlds, maybe, because 5 clans will be keepers.

[RedShugenjaPanda]

I'm down to using two Way of the Phoenix right now. 

One of the problems with WotP in my opinion is that it feels very late-gamish to me. In the early game it feels less relevant, because most of the time players tend to setup a little for future turns. Simply because some Ring effects become stronger the longer the game goes. For example Fire is relatively cosistent throughout the game and Earth really shines late-game. While getting card advantage of Earth is sometimes nice on turn one, its not that relevant because both players have at least four cards. On a later turn, when both players are down on honour and are craving for card draw, without dishonouring themselves, that is were Earth is really devastating to block.

 

It feels like WotP could easily have been a reaction on an opponent declaring a conflict in that ring's type and then has to choose a different one. Making it less costly and giving Phoenix some more reactive play.

 

 

Way of the Phoenix has just been buffed with the ruling that when used on contested rings that gain elements through Seeker of Knowledge and Isawa Kaede, will disallow opponents from choosing the contested ring (if unclaimed) and all the elements it gained (i.e. void and air as well). 

 

 

Can you elaborate on that?  I don't really understand it. Do you mean that when a conflict is declared with and I chose Void with WotP, while having Kaede in any conflict that my opponent can't claim the ring even if they win? Could you provide a link to that ruling? I couldn't find it in the rules question area.

 

 

What do you think of Radiant Orator? I feel like some cards are "phoenix taxed". Meaning they cost more/have less stats simply because they are Phoenix-cards. While I can kind of see the one lesser stat point on naive student versus Bayushi Liar, I simply can't see the point of giving Orator only 3 Stat points. If she had more glory, maybe I would like her, but most of the time I feel like she could have been at least 2/2 or 1/3... her effect is so much worse than other 3 drops.

Most of the time her effect is not really great either, because it's not a bow. The Move home action isn't even that flexible, since she can't target friendly characters.  I REALLY don'T want to ride the Lions Pride Brawler is op train here, but compared to her even Orators ability seems to have fallen really flat. I don't mean to compare all three drops to LPB (that's only a problem for Lion decks), but  overall Orator feels to be really one of the worst cards in the game to me. I currently run her only because she is a courtier.

[Epicurus]

What do you think of Radiant Orator? 

 

I think Radiant orator has a place in a Phoenix deck because of her power in late-game stronghold defense. Phoenix have probably the single strongest long-term power in the game due to their champ's ability. If you can put 4-5+ fate on tsukune and keep her alive and un-clouded, you can grind out a dishonor win. That means eventually you're looking at some big stronghold defenses on Kuroi Mori, which is where Orator shines.

 

I was playing a game vs. phoenix yesterday where I had to use Covert to keep out the Radiant Orator rather than a Tsukune with 2 katanas, because the orator was causing a bigger strength swing (by sending home my Kisada).

 

Orator also synergizes with Asako diplomat, magnificent Kimono and Meddling Mediator very strongly. Send-home also buffs Court Games because you can send home the one with low glory and force them to choose the character they don't want to dishonor.

[RedShugenjaPanda]

I think Radiant orator has a place in a Phoenix deck because of her power in late-game stronghold defense. Phoenix have probably the single strongest long-term power in the game due to their champ's ability. If you can put 4-5+ fate on tsukune and keep her alive and un-clouded, you can grind out a dishonor win. That means eventually you're looking at some big stronghold defenses on Kuroi Mori, which is where Orator shines.

 

I was playing a game vs. phoenix yesterday where I had to use Covert to keep out the Radiant Orator rather than a Tsukune with 2 katanas, because the orator was causing a bigger strength swing (by sending home my Kisada).

 

Orator also synergizes with Asako diplomat, magnificent Kimono and Meddling Mediator very strongly. Send-home also buffs Court Games because you can send home the one with low glory and force them to choose the character they don't want to dishonor.

 

4-5 Fate on a champ seems to be a lot to me. Most of the time you can't really save up so much fate, especially if your opponent plays aggressive enough. 

But I generally agree that Orator is better in late.

 

But isn't Tsukune still an 8 Military swing and sending your Kisada home only a seven Military Swing? 

 

It also synergises well with for shame. Send home first, trigger for shame second. That's not the point I wanted to make. As I said I want her as a courtier. It's just that she just seems to be so "Phoenix taxed" to me. I think one or two more stats would have been a much fairer card, when compared to other 3 drops, even in-clan.

But maybe I'm just under evaluating the "send home" ability on a 3 drop card. Am I missing a point or is send home an enemy strictly worse then bowing an enemy?

[Epicurus]

 

 

4-5 Fate on a champ seems to be a lot to me. Most of the time you can't really save up so much fate, especially if your opponent plays aggressive enough. 

But I generally agree that Orator is better in late.

 

But isn't Tsukune still an 8 Military swing and sending your Kisada home only a seven Military Swing? 

 

But maybe I'm just under evaluating the "send home" ability on a 3 drop card. Am I missing a point or is send home an enemy strictly worse then bowing an enemy?

 

 

The 4-5 fate is totally a playstyle thing. How much fate people put on characters seems to vary wildly by meta. I mention it because my local phoenix player will typically open turn 1 with 1-costers, such as a peacemaker and a naive student, maybe putting 1 fate on one of them, and then pass. Usually they begin turn 2 with 11+ fate, at which point you can play a Tsukune with 5 fate on her (and have 1 left for Kimono or Reprieve to protect against I Can Swim/Way of the Crab/Noble Sacrifice). This has been working REALLY well for him and is altering how the rest of us play,  because he's quite happy to have a so-so turn 1 and a 5-fate tsukune turn 2, and I think he's right.

 

The skill swing thing: An honored radiant orator was contributing enough strength by herself (in both types) to make up the difference. Also, since his Tsukune had two katanas, when he was forced to shift to political using Kuroi Mori, his advantage decreased considerably (whereas the Orator would have gotten better). Challenge math vs. Kuroi Mori makes my head hurt.

 

I agree that she probably is "Phoenix taxed". She's not one of the better phoenix cards. However I would still run her in a defensive, long-game Phoenix deck (which I think is the best phoenix archetype at the moment) because she is still a viable card in that deck.

 

Send home is almost strictly worse - it does prevent them using their "participating" abilities, which on rare occasions is preferable. Try defending in political vs Shoju sometime and tell me if you'd rather bow him or send him home : )

[RedShugenjaPanda]

The 4-5 fate is totally a playstyle thing. How much fate people put on characters seems to vary wildly by meta. I mention it because my local phoenix player will typically open turn 1 with 1-costers, such as a peacemaker and a naive student, maybe putting 1 fate on one of them, and then pass. Usually they begin turn 2 with 11+ fate, at which point you can play a Tsukune with 5 fate on her (and have 1 left for Kimono or Reprieve to protect against I Can Swim/Way of the Crab/Noble Sacrifice). This has been working REALLY well for him and is altering how the rest of us play,  because he's quite happy to have a so-so turn 1 and a 5-fate tsukune turn 2, and I think he's right.

 

I never seem to have that kind of draw.. aka in most of my games I never even see my clan champions. xD But that is just me having my typical "draw". 

But if its working, that'S great. Against an aggressive Lion/Unicorn deck it just seems really hard to save on fate.

 

 

Send home is almost strictly worse - it does prevent them using their "participating" abilities, which on rare occasions is preferable. Try defending in political vs Shoju sometime and tell me if you'd rather bow him or send him home : )

 

 

Can I just have a [ "No-Bayushi-allowed"  1 Fate - Put all Bayushi cards in play provinces or decks into the discard pile.  ]-Card in my Phoenix decks please. :'(