4 replies to this topic

[mplain]

Say I'm playing Greyjoy/Stark, and I Ward a unique character with a duplicate.
I then trigger Drowned God Fanatic's action ability, and attempt to kill the Warded character.
My opponent discards that character's duplicate to save it from the kill.
Cost prevented, ability aborted.
Can I use the Fanatic's action ability again? Did the failed initiation attempt count towards the "Max once per round"?


Normally I'd think that all attempts to initiate an ability count towards Limits and Maximums, even failed ones.
However, we got a ruling in L5R that an ability only counts as having initiated if it gets to Step 6 "Initiate effects". And if it is aborted before that, during Step 4 "Pay costs" or Step 5 "Choose targets", then it doesn't count.
I'm not sure if this ruling is L5R-specific or not, because all relevant rules entries were originally worded the same way in AGOT and L5R rulebooks. Then the L5R devs added a clarification that an ability is considered to have been triggered in step 6.
So how does it work in AGOT?

[mplain]

Say I'm playing Greyjoy/Stark, and I Ward a unique character with a duplicate.
I then trigger Drowned God Fanatic's action ability, and attempt to kill the Warded character.
My opponent discards that character's duplicate to save it from the kill.
Cost prevented, ability aborted.
Can I use the Fanatic's action ability again? Did the failed initiation attempt count towards the "Max once per round"?

Normally I'd think that all attempts to initiate an ability count towards Limits and Maximums, even failed ones.
However, we got a ruling in L5R that an ability only counts as having initiated if it gets to Step 6 "Initiate effects". And if it is aborted before that, during Step 4 "Pay costs" or Step 5 "Choose targets", then it doesn't count.
I'm not sure if this ruling is L5R-specific or not, because all relevant rules entries were originally worded the same way in AGOT and L5R rulebooks. Then the L5R devs added a clarification that an ability is considered to have been triggered in step 6.
So how does it work in AGOT?

Yes, you may attempt to initiate the ability again.

If a cost payment is prevented, that attempt to initiate the ability does not count towards the limit or maximum on the ability. The ability needs to reach Step 6 of initiation (Rules Reference p.10) before it is considered to count against a limit or maximum.

[Danny Schaefer, 26.07.2018]
 

I win dominance and trigger Drowned God's Apostle, but my opponent uses Iron Mines to save him. Cost prevented, ability aborted. Can I trigger the Apostle again?
RRG "Reactions" says: "each reaction may be initiated once each time its specified triggering condition occurs".
Does a failed initiation attempt count towards that?

Also, if an initiation attempt is unsuccessful, do I still pass the opportunity to act to my opponent? Or can I immediately act again?

The same logic applies here. The reaction is only considered to have been “initiated” if it reaches step 6. If the cost of the reaction is prevented, the player may attempt to initiate it again.

However, unsuccessfully attempting to initiate an ability does use up your action opportunity—your opponent will get the next chance to act.

[Danny Schaefer, 01.08.2018]

[mplain]

Updated.

[mplain]

We might have a problem with one of your recent rulings... (here)
You said that if a cost is prevented, the ability fails to initiate, and Limit / Max is not used up.
So now a new king of combo emerged:

Playing this Greyjoy deck, you get to 10 power, then in the plot phase you trigger Fanatic, use Iron Mines / Risen / Bodyguard / duplicate to save from the kill cost, trigger Iron Victory to gain 1 power. The "Max once per round" on the Fanatic is not used up, so you trigger Fanatic again, gain 1 more power. In the draw phase you do that again, twice (as per the limit on Iron Victory). Then in the marshaling phase you do that again, twice. That's 6 saves converted into 6 power before the challenges phase even begins. And the lone fanatic in the dead pile is the sole enabler.

Should this interaction work this way? Should there maybe be a general ruling saying that saves cannot be used to prevent costs from being paid?...

Yes, that is the correct interpretation of the rules.

(Further clarification is coming in an FAQ soon.)

[Danny Schaefer, 21.09.2019]

[mplain]

Best Answer

FAQ v2.0 establishes that saves cannot be used to prevent the payment of costs.