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[Ruling] Daenerys Targaryen (TFM) + A Dragon Is No Slave

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Best Answer mplain , 20 September 2018 - 10:03 PM

A follow-up to question #3 here:

Previously you ruled that Dracarys! can be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM), but her STR will not be reduced as long as her constant ability is active. But if later Nightmares is played at her, the -4 STR effect will kick in and she will be killed.
Now, we cannot agree on how to apply this ruling to non-terminal burn effects.

Can A Dragon Is No Slave be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM)?

The situation is that the only other characters in play all have attachments on them, and I want to use Deny to kill one of them.
Since you ruled that the -4 STR lasting effect is still applied to Deny, even though it is ignored as long as her ability is active, I interpret this as applying a STR reducing effect to Deny *is* in fact a change of game state, and it *is* affecting the target. Thus, I'd say that A Dragon Is No Slave can be played at Deny - she is an eligible target, and the effect would change the game state - albeit not immediately and not directly.
Now, if you'd ruled that the -4 STR part of Dracarys' effect fails to apply to Deny altogether, then I'd say playing ADINS at Deny would be illegal.

Please tell me if my logic is sound or if I'm missing something.


A Dragon is No Slave cannot be played on Daenerys, as it will not change the game state.

Creating a lasting effect that applies a modifier to a value is normally sufficient to constitute a game state change because it affects the calculation of that value, even if the value itself does not change (this is why, for instance, it is legal to play A Dragon is No Slave on a character whose STR is already 0). In this case, however, Daenerys’s ability prevents that modifier from affecting the STR calculation at all; the negative modifier is ignored completely. Therefore A Dragon Is No Slave would not change the game state and cannot be played.

This is different from the Dracarys situation because Dracarys is able to change the game state by successfully applying a “killed if its STR is 0” lasting effect to Daenerys.

[Danny Schaefer, 20.09.2018] Go to the full post »


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4 replies to this topic

#1
mplain

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A follow-up to question #3 here:
 

Daenerys Targaryen (TFM)

Daenerys Targaryen's STR cannot be reduced by card effects.


Previously you ruled that Dracarys! can be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM), but her STR will not be reduced as long as her constant ability is active. But if later Nightmares is played at her, the -4 STR effect will kick in and she will be killed.
Now, we cannot agree on how to apply this ruling to non-terminal burn effects.

Can A Dragon Is No Slave be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM)?

The situation is that the only other characters in play all have attachments on them, and I want to use Deny to kill one of them.
Since you ruled that the -4 STR lasting effect is still applied to Deny, even though it is ignored as long as her ability is active, I interpret this as applying a STR reducing effect to Deny *is* in fact a change of game state, and it *is* affecting the target. Thus, I'd say that A Dragon Is No Slave can be played at Deny - she is an eligible target, and the effect would change the game state - albeit not immediately and not directly.
Now, if you'd ruled that the -4 STR part of Dracarys' effect fails to apply to Deny altogether, then I'd say playing ADINS at Deny would be illegal.

Please tell me if my logic is sound or if I'm missing something.



#2
mplain

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✓  Best Answer

A follow-up to question #3 here:

Previously you ruled that Dracarys! can be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM), but her STR will not be reduced as long as her constant ability is active. But if later Nightmares is played at her, the -4 STR effect will kick in and she will be killed.
Now, we cannot agree on how to apply this ruling to non-terminal burn effects.

Can A Dragon Is No Slave be played at Daenerys Targaryen (TFM)?

The situation is that the only other characters in play all have attachments on them, and I want to use Deny to kill one of them.
Since you ruled that the -4 STR lasting effect is still applied to Deny, even though it is ignored as long as her ability is active, I interpret this as applying a STR reducing effect to Deny *is* in fact a change of game state, and it *is* affecting the target. Thus, I'd say that A Dragon Is No Slave can be played at Deny - she is an eligible target, and the effect would change the game state - albeit not immediately and not directly.
Now, if you'd ruled that the -4 STR part of Dracarys' effect fails to apply to Deny altogether, then I'd say playing ADINS at Deny would be illegal.

Please tell me if my logic is sound or if I'm missing something.


A Dragon is No Slave cannot be played on Daenerys, as it will not change the game state.

Creating a lasting effect that applies a modifier to a value is normally sufficient to constitute a game state change because it affects the calculation of that value, even if the value itself does not change (this is why, for instance, it is legal to play A Dragon is No Slave on a character whose STR is already 0). In this case, however, Daenerys’s ability prevents that modifier from affecting the STR calculation at all; the negative modifier is ignored completely. Therefore A Dragon Is No Slave would not change the game state and cannot be played.

This is different from the Dracarys situation because Dracarys is able to change the game state by successfully applying a “killed if its STR is 0” lasting effect to Daenerys.

[Danny Schaefer, 20.09.2018]

#3
mplain

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If Daenerys Targaryen (TFM) is affected by The Eyrie, can she be targeted by Dracarys?


No, Daenerys cannot be targeted by Dracarys in this situation. The combination of Daenerys’s constant ability and The Eyrie’s lasting effect prevent Dracarys from changing the game state.
 

Does "cannot be killed" prevent the "kill if STR is 0" effect from applying? In theory it could expire before the lasting effect of Dracarys, thus making Deny vulnerable to being killed. Seems somewhat similar to the interaction between The Eyrie and Tears of Lys...


Note that this is a bit of a different situation than the interaction between Tears of Lys and The Eyrie. Tears of Lys has an “at the end of the phase” effect, which initiates after The Eyrie’s lasting effect has expired. Dracarys and The Eyrie both have “until the end of the phase” lasting effects, which expire simultaneously, so The Eyrie’s effect will protect a character from Dracarys’s kill effect.

[Danny Schaefer, 16.10.2018]

#4
Odrl

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Note that this is a bit of a different situation than the interaction between Tears of Lys and The Eyrie. Tears of Lys has an “at the end of the phase” effect, which initiates after The Eyrie’s lasting effect has expired. Dracarys and The Eyrie both have “until the end of the phase” lasting effects, which expire simultaneously, so The Eyrie’s effect will protect a character from Dracarys’s kill effect.

[Danny Schaefer, 16.10.2018]

 

Is it just me, or does this not really answer the question you asked?



#5
mplain

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Is it just me, or does this not really answer the question you asked?


It doesn't. But then, I'm not sure what I meant when referring to The Eyrie + Tears of Lys, so...