Golden Death v2

I don't think that you're going to get the 2 influence reliably enough to make Ser Gregor work. Beyond that, I'm not sure why you've got the lone clansman and the clansman supporting version of Tyrion, is it really that important to drag your refugees along? Also, how important is misinformation with all the kneeling and the killing? I'd probably go with the following changes:

-1 Tyrion
-1 Shagga
-1 Ser Gregor
-3 Misinformation
-1 Tyrosh
-1 Street of Sisters
-1 Lannisport Treasury


+3 Brothel Guard
+3 Lannisport Moneylender
+2 The Searoad
+1 Tyrion Lannister (core)

That'll help you out during setup and round out your gold curve a little better. Toll Gate would be really nice to get in and combo with Brothel Guard but I don't know what to take out for it. Also, I'd say the deck is somewhat low on draw power, but I don't know what to suggest to put in for that (or what to pull for it). Perhaps a Widow's Wail and non-kneeling Asha? Bronn and Bronn's Hireling could also be a good addition for his reverse deadly.

First of all, thank you for the response ShadowcatX2000.

The influence and Clegane is indeed the weakest area of the deck, as he could easily turn up without two influence on the board, so whilst he would be a Str 4 Mil Renown character, there are other characters who could do a similar job, and his killing effect is the theme of the deck.

The Clansman version of Tyrion is because he is a tricon, doesn't require shadow cards to make him truely effective unlike the CoS version, and the effect on the core version never really happened for me, as I rarely had leftover gold for card draw, or needed the extra card draw due to maxing out earlier in the turn.

Shagga is there because he gives me Deadly on Power challenges (not noticeable on Military), but also means he can defend Military even when knelt. If the refugees are also out, that is an added bonus for himself or Tyrion, but not essential.

Misinformation is there to protect against the weakness of the agenda, or on Frey Hospitality turns, lull them into a false sense of security by having most or even all of my Intrigue characters already knelt, and then I can still win the challenge and have another of their characters die.

Toll Gate is not a card I own or have access to, although I completely agree with you that it is a good card. As such, there is no way it could go in the deck.

Why the removal of Street of Sisters? It is not limited and 0 gold, which helps for setup, whilst also being useful the turn it is played? It works on 14 characters in my deck (Myrcella was counted three times, as she should only be played the turns I intend to discard her, whilst Cersei was just the once), which is high enough to warrant. Which leads to the related question, of why Searoad? Just for extra 0 cost gold production?

Swapping the Treasury for a Moneylender I can appreciate, as I was debating the risk versus reward of a limited location versus a character, as they cost the same, give the same gold, but the characters gives me more potential with Dominance and Intrigue challenges, whilst the location is harder to be discarded. I take it you are on the side of character over location?

Brothel Guards I do like, due to the fact it forces my opponent to either kneel a character or give me power. However, finding room for it was a problem. They could go in over Myrcella, as the control may be better then the extra Intrigue challenge.

I thought about Bronn, but I worried about the amount of four gold characters I had, with seven character slots already dedicated to them.

Draw wise, before it was restricted I used TMP with Lannister, to help make up for the lkack of attachment hate and extra draw from Valyrian Steel. So now there is Tommen and the three GTM. Wail conerns me as a draw system due to the fragile nature of attachments.

Hopefully that helps expand the reasoning for my choices, although I will put thought into your suggestions and mention any changes I do make as a result ShadowcatX2000

Of the 9 cards I suggested adding, 5 of them produce gold. That should be a big enough boost for core Tywin to work. And how exactly do you plan to max out on draw earlier in the turn, you'd have to draw either all 3 of your golden tooth mines or draw 2 of them and a tommen.

Sure, Ser Gregor fits the theme of the deck but would you rather have a good deck that follows a theme or a themed deck that does okay? I mean after all you have 5 influence in the deck and 3 of that is on your seas. Beyond that Bronn's effect fits your deck just as much as Ser Gregor.(Not that I'm trying to say the deck is bad, not at all, I'm just saying Ser Gregor is a poor choice.) Heck, if you took him out you could even loose Cersi's Chambers in favor of yet another money generating character.

And I get why misinformation is there, its a great card. But do you expect to be loosing intrigue challenges when you're killing their characters left and right and kneeling the rest? To me, this deck looks like it wants to establish a lock on the opponent, hit hard on intrigue in the first turn for 2 or 3 claim 2 challenges, then valar to clear the board, then kill and intrigue everything else that comes up away.

As to the street of sisters, gold works to pay for all of your characters, not just 14. And it helps during dominance if you have it left over. And it pays for locations. And it pays for Tyrion's ability. Still, dropping a searoad in favor of keeping the street of sisters might be the right call, I'm not entirely sure.

You shouldn't need deadly on power challenges if you're killing and kneeling all their characters.

The moneylender only produces 1 gold btw, you're thinking of the Lannisport Steward, but I thought a 1 cost character would be more welcome during setup and less painful as claim which is why I suggested it instead of the steward.

Attachments aren't nearly so weak as people think they are. But anyways, if you put the wail on non-kneeling Cersei and gave it one power, it alone could get you to draw cap every turn.

I certainly wouldn't take out Myrcella, she's pure gold during the opening turn and during frey hospitality turns as well. You might be able to cut her down by a copy or so though.

Considering how much I love Lannister, it is bad of me that I haven't used them for so long that I am mixing up the gold producing characters.

The main problem I am having, is that I have always focusing on hyperkneel, and stayed away from PbtT. So I am finding it hard moving away from that mindset. As such, I am wondering if the mixture of hyperkneel and murder may be more useful? Your suggestions do indicate that. As such, would it be better to drop the agenda, removing the major need for Misinformation? Go with none instead. Or tweak it slightly and go for Summer? Extra draw and income, add Samwell and some Carrion Birds for further card draw and control. Or the other Kevan Lannister, for further kneeling? Though that means I have one less Noble to support Death by Payne.

Removing Clegane and thus all the Influence providing cards for extra income will probably do better in the long run. Either Bronn, or some cheaper characters to lower the curve instead.

Instead of Street of Sisters, I was thinking about Flea Bottom. Whilst it will kneel the character, there are several characters who wouldn't be truely disrupted by entering play knelt. Jaime will stand at the start of the Challenge phase, Castellan and Enemy Informer will still kneel someone, Mycella can still be discarded for an additional Intrigue challenge, and if I add the Brothel Guard, it makes certain they will be kneeling.

Also, with board control, do you feel that Twist of Fate would be a safe option, instead of B&E? The passive text from B&E rarely happens in my experience, and extra gold is never bad, even with Lannister's income.

I am concerned that relying too heavily on my kill and kneeling effects could be risky, as they won't always be able to deal with everything, depending on how the game flows. Granted, there are 13 kill/discard effects excluding Frey Hospitality, and 11 kneel effects assuming they kneel to Penny.

What are your thoughts Shadowcat?

I think you should focus on the kneel / kill aspect, but I would keep it PBtT and just not worry about the downside. At most they get an extra card off of you for the first turn or two, seems fairly balanced by them loosing a card or two to your second intrigue challenge.

As for twist of fate, I don't know. I've never played with the card myself.

Well, I am building the deck with some tweaks to get tested tomorrow night.

However, I am wondering how I completely overlooked A Lannister Pays His Debts (Core), especially as it is one I mentioned in my initial thread. So, I am thinking that it goes in instead of Misinformation. Moving some cards around to try and squeeze in Brothel Guard, as per your suggestion ShadowcatX2000, so I have another means to kill, whilst also ensureing I can kneel them.

Also, for draw, what about King's Landing (SaS)? Four King's Landing traited cards including itself, going up to five with Flaw Bottom. The price makes me uncertain however. Few decks should be able to trump me with having more King's Landing, so it should generally work.

Kings Landing is a good option and as you say you should have the monopoly on KL cards, but much like yourself the cost seems a little high. But then card draw wins games...

And yes, A Lannister Pays His Debts is perfectly suited to this deck.

I think id rather stay with B&E. The extra gold from ToF may come in handy from time to time but the ability to steal stuff from your opponents hand is pretty darned good. Its a tough call really.

I agree with ShadowCat about the state of attachments. Widows Wail is actually amazing. And yes, as he pointed out, putting it on a non kneeling Cersai is just scary!

I like where you have gone with this deck. It has a surprising amount of synergy.

Thanks for the reply Skelton.

I haven't put KL in it yet, as I want to see if it is required after testing tonight. I can also look at the amount of KL traited cards they use, to see if it would have worked.

I have added a single copy of Wail, although that may be increased. That way I increase the odds of it being seen, can play it without waiting for Cersei, or dupe it if on a duped version of her.

ALPHD has been added for now. What I never thought about is that it works, even if I lose as the attacker, which could lead to some interesting decoy attacks, depending on who they have in play and defend with.

Nice to hear you like the concept behind the deck. Hopefully it will do me well at a tournament next month :-)

After the tournament will you post the updated deck list? I'm very curious to see what you've done with it. This may well become my first Lannister deck.

Of course I can :-)

I doubt others will be copying or expecting my deck at the tournament however, but fingers crossed it turns some heads and gets some discussion.

Is this the tournament in Stoke? If so, I will see you there.

It is indeed the Stoke tournament!

Now I wonder if there will be myself and maybe another Lannister player. Always so few of us.

Im not sure what to play yet. Either Lannister PbtT/kneel or Stark Murder.

Either way, ill be on the bottom tables.

Well, I have tried this a couple of times to two of our weekly gaming nights, and the results so far are not positive.

I have lost to Stark Knights, Martell Brotherhood, Bara Holy rush and Targ Summer burn.

So, if it doesn't cope against decks like that, I am not feeling optimistic about taking it to a tournament now :S

Some tweaks have been made to it, as discussed in the multiple replies above. However, it still doesn't seem to work. The problem is, I can't put my finger on why, which is only making it harder to figure out how to make it work.

I wonder if scrapping the idea and going to Hyperkneel, or working out what people have been doing to get major victories with Kings of Winter would be better, or if I should keep persuing this different take on Lannister?

I haven't ever played Lannister but the basic idea seems solid. Can you give us some examples of what has happened?

Well, I wasn't getting a good opening flop, so I have lowered the curve a bit more (took out the Seas originally, they are now back in), which put me on the back foot. I have also switched out Hear me Roar for All the gold in Casterly Rock, as it would force me to return the Hound. However I also dropped the Hound, as he wasn't doing enough for me.

Against the Targ Burn deck, even if my characters weren't being killed off, they were being reduced to the point that I couldn't push challenges through, which allowed them to setup and push to the point of winning. Dragonpit kept my characters weak, and as a noticeable amount of Lannister characters are low strength, it had a massive impact for him.

Against the Stark Knight deck, it was a bloody massacre for both sides. It was last week so I am a bit hazy, however in the first turn I brought him down to one character I think, with a combination of Terminal Schemes, Paying Debts and Execution. However, I then got into a bad draw and he managed to kill my characters. Seeing Bear Island from turn 2 made me panic, as there is nothing I can do about it unfortunately - Location control isn't anything I have, and don't have much option for.

Against Martell, because they can equal Lannister with power, it makes for a tough matchup. But then when Beric appears, and gets a Flaming Sword, Taste for Blood and an Alchemist Shop with his locations, he becomes an absolute beast. HCIT gets saved for Enemy Informer, as it is the only really effective kneeling effect I have, as Castellan and Volantis don't work on characters with attachments.

For Bara Rush, as it is Holy based, Asshai have an annoying amount of Intrigue and Power, and with reducing locations and Manning the City Walls to play their new army, it gets hard to shut down. Then once they get Power of Faith for two turns, making the characters not kneel and gain military, it gets power quite quick.

On paper my deck seems solid, which is what is making me so frustrated with it. There isn't enough space for all the answers, and if I add cards like Nightmares, Paper Shield and Condemned by the Council, I would have to take all my other events out. At that point, several elements of the deck are gone.

The decklist has been updated to the most current version of the deck.

I still need to update the description, as The Mountain is no longer in the deck, and several other changes.

I'd probably drop a death by payne and an execution in favor of 2 I'm you writ small.

Why Myrcella?

Also, I'd probably try and get a couple more 2 claim plots in there, retaliation maybe.

She is in as I found myself lacking Noble characters for Death by Payne, and she is cheap.

Retaliation is in, so along with B&E I have two claim 2 plots.

I don't know how I over looked you having retaliation.

And it amazes me as I go through your character list who doesn't have a noble icon. (I mean seriously, the King isn't even noble while his Lady sister and his Lord brother are?) (Ditto Tyrion.)

They have nowhere near as many nobles as you would expect. Hell, one version of Joffrey isn't Noble, whilst only one version of Jaime is! I wish they had more available to them

I am looking forward to a Stark playing pulling out Meera Reed, blanking something good on my board, and then watching her die to Death by Payne. I am expecting them to have never seen that coming, and maybe even read the event to remind them what the card does

I wasn't trying to criticize your list, I was just confused as to how the king isn't even a noble. The king, as in of the whole of Westeros (supposedly). His brother is, his sister is, his mother is, but not the king himself. . . I mean I'm sure it was a balance issue, but is a noble crest really that big of a deal?

Don't worry, I wasn't reading it as critcism, more shock at the choice of who is and isn't a Noble.

It can't be for balance, as Baratheon have Bastard in Hiding (KotStorm), and he isn't even unique!

So overall, is the only change you would suggest is your earlier comment of dropping a Death by Payne and Exeecution for two copies of I'm You Writ Small?

I think so. If you dropped a second death by payne for a third writ small, do you think you could afford to drop Myrcella?

I might tinker with the character base a bit, maybe a myrcella, a jaime, and maybe Payne himself for 3 bronn's hirelings, just to lower your cost and force through some deadly intrigue challenges but that's far from certain.

I would need to test to see if reducing DbP would mean I don't need Myrcella, though she means that I can keep the other Nobles to do their job when I do intend to use it.

I have found Jaime to be far too handy. Being able to power Execution, DbP when it isn't the challenge phase, Volantis Inn, and also get him out cheap with Flea Bottom, whilst also having Renown, is just too good.

Payne himself is hard to call, as like so many 1x characters, doesn't see play every game. Seeing him in the Lannister winter decks that have been making their rounds, when combined with The Inn of the Kneeling Man (FtC) does make me think I shouldn't give up on him yet.

Doe the curve seem like it needs bringing down that much however?