Tunnel Dreams

With the new FAQ coming out, I feel HoD tunnels and possibly HoD Dragonpit become more prevalent. You have a good Idea with the workaround of Ser Preston being restricted, however, you have so much kneel now that you may in fact be able to run him as the restricted card over Penoshi's. I know, madness... I think 3x Jaime is a little too redundant. Between 3x Golden Tooth Mines , Samwell and Jaime you should see what you need to have plenty of draw if you drop one. I also would drop Shadowcat and Ser Gregor's Dog for some economy and change All the Gold to something else like Retaliation now that it is off the Restricted List. Back to my first sentence, I feel The King's Law will become a little more prevalent. Having something that would blank or cancel it may be needed.

This is just my 2c. My local meta thinks I'm wrong about HoD Tunnels/Dragonpit, but I think they will still be good decks...

Thanks for the feedback. I take your point about Retaliation + Preston over All The Gold + Pentoshi - yes, I can see that build work too.

Like everyone, I wanted to fit Retaliation but there is no Marshalling kneel (to go 2nd) so went with City of Spiders instead. As for All The Gold, the "vomit your hand into Shadows" turn really changes the dynamic with all the shadow 0 creatures (which are key for multiple reveals before a challenge after the Valar etc). The s0 characters also help control dominance. And surely any Jamie redundancy is just a Tunnels boost? However, I agree Preston may be better than Pentoshi (did I really write that?), in this build anyway. Thanks for opening my eyes to how missed Preston is in this build, popping in and out. Poor fella, such a short period before they trod on him.

As for King's Law, it doesn't really hurt Dragonpit so I actually fear City Besieged most, then Rally Cry. King's Law mostly hurts Tunnels and I can't see players using such a specific plot. Again all the s0 characters and not over-committing to shadows should help mitigate the pain. I did consider Narrow Escape as my restricted but, as I'm hoping for some Intrigue damage (via pumped Hirelings), may be better suited for the more traditional Weaponsmith/Moneylender build.

I thought Gregor's Dogs are good for Tunnels? I like their icons better than Refugees and they stick around more. However I agree that if I changed them to Moneylenders, that would free me to change All the Gold for Retaliation. So good advice there, thanks.. A prior iteration leveraged their Mercenary trait with Gold Cloaks instead of Mines (as I fear being hit by RBD) and also had Penny. Now, with all the changes I've since made, they do stick out of place in the build and need to be changed, Thanks.

I will make the Dogs works though one day, perhaps in an Adam Marbrand armies build (Amory's Poachers etc) with 3 Ashemark, 3 Dragonbone Daggers, 3 Ashemark Knight, 3 Greedy Councillors etc. Add Bear and Maiden Fair and Adam's dad Damon and they could get quite hefty to power that Terminal Schemes. While Dagger into Ashemark reclaimed provide that surprise extra gold needed to activate numerous characters, Hmmm. Not exactly a stable idea, bit too combo-tastic for my taste.

Thanks for the feedback.

if you are removing pentoshis you ll need some more stealth,the bane of tunnels (along kings law).

Little Bird could be good for that.

I think the money makers are right for this deck - unlike most decks they actually push challenges through.

Tbh I'd swap them in for Increased levy rather than Dogs though.

Firstly, many thanks to those who have replied above - your feedback is appreciated


@icarus

Yes, I assumed stealth is the bane of Tunnels (having never played it - yet - as I'm a melee player).
Do you think 11 stealth dudes (3 Birds, 3 Cats, Syrio, Trant, Tyrion, Varys, Litllefinger) is not enough?
Although I appreciate only 9 of them are military (4 are intrigue, 3 are power)
I tried to go for a "stealth for military, deadly for intrigue" build as cheaply as possible (5 deadly, 4 are intrigue, excludes Tyrion)
What then suffers is Renown (unless you're Quentyn) where there is just Jaime (3 copies + On My Oath), Aerys and usually Tyrion
Which means a medium length aggro-control game (Martell having redefined what a long game is) hence the Mines etc

After deliberation, I'm not comfortable losing Pentoshi for Preston as suggesed by the prior poster.
My shadow triggers are 3 Guild Hall (limited), 3 Jaime, 1 Tyron and 1 Trant,
I have 20 shadows (supported by City of Lies, Spiders and On My Oath) to trigger them
It's not bad to only have 1 Challenge reveal each turn and I have Syrio so Preston seems a bit "win more", I need Pentoshi safety!
Obviously post-Valar, Silent Sisters reveal whilst keeping optimal number still hidden as pumps.
So with Pentoshi staying in, and my 11 Stealth, 5 Deadly, I think I'm ok.
It also makes sense to have lots of locations vs. Condemned or Price of War so opponent has a hard choice

Thanks for highlighting the problems of removing Pentoshi - much appreciated


@Linke87

Yeah, I decided to take up just 1 part of your advice: substituting the 3 Dogs with 3 Moneylenders
Why Moneylenders and not Weaponsmiths?
Almost all my Shadows supplement my Carrion Birds with Military so if I'm losing Military, chumps die anyway
On the other hand, chumps can oppose Intrigue if I'm losing on that front and survive for bonus next turn
As the Hirelings are too good for attack (I so wanted to find room for Margaery) where I trigger Kingdoms

The build isn't the usual Lannister reactive, it's more proactive with no Marshalling control beyond Coldhands
Retaliation is perfect for Castellan/Informer/Guardman builds but not here, I'll stick with All the Gold for mid-game hand vomit, half to Shadows.
It's also the perfect play after an opponent Valars due to early pressure.
All 18 locations qualify so this will occur earlier than expected...

However, if I find Cities is played alot (on OCTGN), I will probably change All the Gold to Building Season and add a spare Tunnels
Facing Cities, you know Beseiged hits Turn 4 so you play it turn 3
Other time would be against an Armies card disadvantage build, probably Rivers opening Redwyn when you pre-empt turn 3 Rally Cry with it,
If not facing either (majority), Building season can still be useful as a 7th plot for Iron Throne or Brothel or Pentoshi
Few Houses can boast such great locations, especially that late in the game when they'll have a Meraxes etc

Anyway, thanks for the advice on the Dogs - advice taken!


@VonWibble

Why does nobody like Increased Levy, especially with House of Dreams protection?
It just seems such a no-brainer but I rarely see it in any lists
Before Pentoshi was (fairly) restricted, I had Caches abusing House of Dreams protection too!

Now I appreciate Targ KotHH plays Dragon Thief (Dothraki and Dragons don't run attachment hate)
But even if your set-up Levy lasted until turn 2, that's the same return as a Sea.
And as Rally cry can't trigger until turn 3 and Besieged until turn 4, you're benefiting by playing them on Tunnels - surely?

Now, I'm not challenging - simply curious why it's shunned in HoD Tunnels/Rock - I'm sure there's a really good reason why
For example, in our casual melee meta, we never understood the hate for 2 reducers but that's because none of us play Greyjoy
Having explored Greyjoy pool for the first time (I blame the disappointing deluxe), I now realise why they are shunned oustide of KotHH
(Greyjoy choke is just 1 archetype of many, I will still stick to Fountains over Roseroads in Quentyn builds with identical set-up cost)

I suspect there's a really good reason beyond Dragon Thief as there seems so little love for those Levies, poor unloved attachments...

As for Little Bird, yep, I agree she can be good, probably best in a Lanni Knights build (as Lanni Armies strangely have intrigue icons!)
However, now that I'm keeping Pentoshi, it's all hypothetical as there's plenty of stealth with Pentoshi denial to cope.

Currently I'm swapping Dogs for Moneylenders
But having read some of your well argued posts, I suspect you will convince me to swap the Levies for Weaponsmiths too

Thanks for the feedback and, if it isn't asking too much, I'd be interested to know why you don't like the Levies?
Is it because having bodies is better in Tunnels? (it would be 39 characters, 17 shadows, 22 non-shadows, 17 cost 0-1, sounds ok)


Summary

The deck dies to King's Law (unless predicted with Forgotten Plans) and Favourable Grounds (bane of every Lanni deck surely).
Otherwise it's shaping up as quite solid.
I submitted what I thought was a "different" as it uses another economy base with Hirelings + Carrion instead
But now Dogs will become Moneylenders and vonWibble will convince me to switch Levies for Weaponsmiths
This sort of turns it vanilla Tunnels really - nothing to see here beyond how Tunnels has evolved in this FAQ
I guess there's a very good reason why people use those Gold Guys in Tunnels (to fuel their shadow costs)



Bonus Question (open to all)

So every aggro deck will be playing Refugees and going lower on the curve, making A House Divided no longer an auto-include
So what does the forum think about substituting them with Harry The Riverlands?

A side benefit is it can help to escape a turn 1 Rule By Decree, either self-inflicted via Mines or telegraphed via Much and More.
Harry The Riverlands card disadvantage helps here, adds that extra bit of tempo and breaks board stalls - it's better now with the new FAQ.

Thoughts on this change please?

Yeah, regardless of the build, I find it hard to NOT use 3x all gold weenies. It just puts enormous pressure on your opponent to valar early, or with each successive round you'll be bringing tremendous pressure to bear on them. I'm experimenting with exchanging 3x Councillors with Mountain Refugees (or Dogs), but I never feel good about it!

@VonWibble

Thanks for the feedback and, if it isn't asking too much, I'd be interested to know why you don't like the Levies?
Is it because having bodies is better in Tunnels? (it would be 39 characters, 17 shadows, 22 non-shadows, 17 cost 0-1, sounds ok)

Bonus Question (open to all)

So every aggro deck will be playing Refugees and going lower on the curve, making A House Divided no longer an auto-include
So what does the forum think about substituting them with Harry The Riverlands?

Simple reason I don't like the Levies is the one you gave - I'd rather pay 1 more and have a character. But, in fairness, if you are going to try them, this is definitely the right deck for it.

Ultimately, there is no substitution for playing the game - why not try the increased levy for some games? If plot based location control isn't hurting you and you are getting enough stuff on the table I agree they are better. The killer being Arianne Martell quickly cycling city plots.

On A House Divided, I agree Harry the Riverlands is looking good as a replacement. For that matter, so is Dissension. But all 3 fill different roles, again I suppose the question has to be whether you value kneeling 2-3 characters more or less than putting the opponent out by a marshalling phase or discarding a character. Turn 1 Rule by Decree is a bit of a pain but losing 3 cards to it (of your choice) is not the worst thing than can ever happen - with lots of weenies as this build has I'd say the more common First Snow into Rule By Decree is by far nastier.

what jstrong and wimble said,weenies win challenges in tunnels.cant tell how many times i ve won a power challenge with a 5strengh weenie.on the event matter,play what you like.all lanni events are above good,choose according to your style.i like playing im your writt small+terminal schemes with margaery and cersei persectively.they put so much pressure when you follow with a double claim military.

Thanks for the responses everyone - much appreciated


@jstrong

I appreciate your "pressure to Valar" argument - it's a very good reason to have more Gold Allies in Tunnels
I don't rate Councillors (I rate the other two) but I do understand your "don't feel good" about Dogs/Refugees
Perhaps it's my control bias but I always feel cards must "do something" instead of just being a body on table
Dogs are for the Ashemark build so they are definitely out
Refugees are the new toy available but I hate the pressure to win dominance else claim soak them
In the end, the decision was between Refugees and losing A House Divided and it was really no contest there


@icarus911

I know what you mean about Lannister events - so many good ones, so few slots!
As you say, Writ Small and Terminal Schemes are excellent in PBtT with those characters
I don't think I can ever divorce myself from A House Divided which really hurts that lynchpin piece (Beric, Maesters, Stannis etc)
However, my reasoning behind Harry the Riverlands is that Refugees is a direct threat to Tunnels strength on the board
The 2 events complement each other well (one for fatties, other for weenies)
I would expect the hurt to KotHH and Refugees available will create a lot more low cost aggro builds
Hence Harry the Riverlands should be good (still keeping A House Divided as it's never card disadvantage, just opportunity cost)
Tunnels is surely more about tempo or mid-game opening -that's the theory anyway, I'm probably wrong.
I really like the "apply so much pressure to force the Valar" approach advocated by jstrong above
And with Sisters and Cats ready to appear in Draw and Marshalling phases post-Valar, this feels right
Both cards are tempo plays so let's commit to that route...


@vonWibble

Yes, you have convinced me the Gold Allies are better than Increased Levy
As for First Snow into RBD, Forgotten Plans is there for First Snow (KotHH first play expecting City of Lies from me) and King's Law
Assuming I have the shadows in hand, City of Lies is followed by City of Spiders, better value than Retaliation (this prefers to go first)
I feel I need Beseiged location control for HoD (Dragonpit, Bear Island/Harrenhal etc) and just any troublesome location I encounter
I also view Cersei's Scheme as a poor man's City of Sin, played 4th or 3rd if I need 3-cost location removal
So sadly, after much thought, I've come to the conclusion that 4 City plots, Forgotten Plans, Valar and On My Oath are better
Adding 2 more City plots may be very predictable, not contentious like All The Gold (or a pre-emptive Building Season)
But for a noob like me to think I can come up with better plot choices than a variation on the "standard" is rather arrogant
I suspect Tunnels evolve and converge as variations on the same build (Cities, Gold Allies etc) because it is the best build


So, after discussions above, I have sadly reverted to what I feel is a pretty vanilla Tunnel build...


Deck Built with CardGameDB.com GoT Deckbuilder

Tunnel Dreams

House (0)

Agenda (1)
House of Dreams (ARotD) x1

Character (36)
Ser Jaime Lannister (TK) x3
Tyrion Lannister (CoS) x1
Varys (SaS) x1
Qyburn (SaS) x1
Ser Meryn Trant (TK) x1
Ser Mandon Moore (TK) x1
Ser Boros Blount (TK) x1
Syrio Forel (TftRK) x1
The Hound (TK) x1
Shadowcat (KotS) x3
Silent Sisters (KotS) x3
Cersei Lannister (AToT) x1
Littlefinger (SaS) x1
Ser Arys Oakheart (PotS) x1
Janos Slynt (THtW) x1
Coldhands (THtW) x1
Tommen Baratheon (SA) x1
Samwell Tarly (TRS) x1
Carrion Bird (ASoS) x3
Bronn's Hireling (LotR) x3
Lannisport Moneylender (LotR) x3
Lannisport Weaponsmith (Core) x3

Location (18)
Tunnels of the Red Keep (CoS) x1
The Iron Throne (LotR) x1
Lannisport Brothel (Core) x1
Alchemist's Guild Hall (TBoBB) x3
Golden Tooth Mines (Core) x3
Pentoshi Manor (AHM) x3
Kingdom of Shadows (KotS) x3
The Goldroad (Core) x3

Event (6)
A House Divided (WLL) x3
Harry the Riverlands (FF) x3

Attachment (0)

Plot (7)
City of Lies (CoS) x1
City of Spiders (TftRK) x1
A City Besieged (CD) x1
City of Sin (AToT) x1
Valar Morghulis (Core) x1
On My Oath (TK) x1
Forgotten Plans (KotStorm) x1


Thanks to everyone above who has contributed to its evolution
Apologies if this now looks all too familiar...

last time i played tunnels it was looking like this,almost a year before to the day!

http://www.cardgamed...eople-regional/

last time i played tunnels it was looking like this,almost a year before to the day!

http://www.cardgamed...eople-regional/

Thanks for the link, reading your card list made me smile at the similarities...
It also shows the strength of the card pool now (I rejected Gold Cloaks even with Dogs in the original build due to its negative traits)
As I said, this Tunnels build has (d)evolved into the above Deja Vu build (sadly)

I initially wanted A City Besieged for location control but testing the deck, I suddenly realised I had no location I was willing to lose myself!
So I've changed that to City of Soldiers which is a solid 2 claim plot that culls a 2 (or 3) STR character as well, not shabby for a 3-0-2 plot

Instead, for location control, I changed Harry the Riverlands (harsh played against Tunnels) for Condemned by the Council
I was never really comfortable with its card disadvantage and really it's the big Armies that causes problems to Tunnels, not the weenies
Winning intrigue (key for Cersei, Janos, Kingdom) should be reliable with Bronn's Hirelings, Moneylenders and all the uniques with INT icon
Post-Valar, the Sisters will also push INT wins so I was comfortable with its conditional

Then in testing I discovered that 3 of the Kingsguard were quite disappointing in play
Trant mainly helps against KotHH as there are so many gold producing locations played
Moore is a silver bullet against Greyjoy but I don't like 1 silver bullet without search (if I meet Greyjoy, I still need to draw him)
As for Blount, s0 characters best appear in Draw, Marshalling and Dominance when his ability (too akin to Tunnels) is useless

I also discovered the Tunnels build absolutely dies without Tunnels (is there another HoD build more reliant on its land?)
There's Forgotten Plans for First Snow or King's Law but no answer to A City Besieged (telegraphed), Rally Cry or Shield Islands Epic

I therefore made 3 co-ordinated changes:

• swapped On My Oath and Brothel for Building Season and a spare Tunnels
• swapped Trant, Moore and Blount for 3 Summer Sea Corsairs
• swapped A House Divided for Terminal Schemes

Yes, Icarus, I took your advice and opted for the hard control of Terminal Schemes (as well as Condemned)
I like the MIL/INT icons of Corsairs with its uncapped cards (Jaime, Janos, Sam, Tommen, Mines can hit cap)
This also meant On My Oath could be ditched for a defensive Building Season (that finds Iron Throne as 7th plot if contingency not needed)

I've stubbornly stuck with 3 copies of Jaime and Guild Hall as they are key, any redundancy used by Tunnels
I took out Brothel to fit in the 2nd copy of Tunnels because, like Brothel Guards, it's too expensive in a Tunnels build for its delayed benefit
I would assume Brothel may be perfect for a pure control build like KotHH but this Tunnels build is more about board presence, not control
I found Brothel to be a luxury that I could not afford in gold-hungry Tunnels, whilst getting Guild Hall early (like getting Jaime early) is golden
But was this a mistake? No doubt I will regret it if I meet Viper (but Guild Hall triggers each round when I find it as I have 20 shadow cards)

So that is how the build evolved into this...


Deck Built with CardGameDB.com GoT Deckbuilder

Tunnel Dreams

House (0)

Agenda (1)
House of Dreams (ARotD) x1

Character (36)
Ser Jaime Lannister (TK) x3
Tyrion Lannister (CoS) x1
Varys (SaS) x1
Qyburn (SaS) x1
Summer Sea Corsair (RotK) x3
Syrio Forel (TftRK) x1
The Hound (TK) x1
Shadowcat (KotS) x3
Silent Sisters (KotS) x3
Littlefinger (SaS) x1
Cersei Lannister (AToT) x1
Ser Arys Oakheart (PotS) x1
Janos Slynt (THtW) x1
Coldhands (THtW) x1
Bronn's Hireling (LotR) x3
Lannisport Moneylender (LotR) x3
Lannisport Weaponsmith (Core) x3
Carrion Bird (ASoS) x3
Samwell Tarly (TRS) x1
Tommen Baratheon (SA) x1

Location (18)
Tunnels of the Red Keep (CoS) x2
Alchemist's Guild Hall (TBoBB) x3
The Iron Throne (LotR) x1
Golden Tooth Mines (Core) x3
Pentoshi Manor (AHM) x3
Kingdom of Shadows (KotS) x3
The Goldroad (Core) x3

Event (6)
Condemned by the Council (AToT) x3
Terminal Schemes (LotR) x3

Attachment (0)

Plot (7)
City of Lies (CoS) x1
City of Spiders (TftRK) x1
City of Soldiers (TBoBB) x1
City of Sin (AToT) x1
Forgotten Plans (KotStorm) x1
Valar Morghulis (Core) x1
Building Season (Core) x1


I'm quite pleased with this as I find it's better than prior iterations and it has a far more individual stamp than the prior listed above
It's fun to play with lots to learn (like set-up 1 in shadows if facing Targ or Stark Winter as Threat From The North pre-empts Lies)
Thank you to Icarus for making me consider/test Terminal Schemes in a shadows build...

as i said in your quentyn deck,playtest is the way to go.the more you play the better you discover what is the **** and what doesnt click.i wanted to comment on the kg but didnt want to make you change your theme.but as i was afraid kg without preston is subpar.only jaime is stand-alone good.

in your revised build i would cut 1 jaime 1 corsair and 1 guild hall for 1 margaery,1 pyromancers apprentice (since you pushed the location control with condemned) and 1 widows wail/any 1 event,since you play building season and you can pull a silver bullet earlier than 7th plot against some decks (guild hall against viper,iron throne against gj and lanni no agenda)etc